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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Wendy Downie on Friday 08 September 17 13:47 BST (UK)
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We are researching our family history and have got stuck at William Coats and Armand Carloman, both hobby horse proprietors in the late nineteeth century. Can anyone help...please
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Hi Wendy, there is a birth of a Armond Carloman in Q1 of 1866 in Blackburn registration district. Is this your ancestor?
Do you know where Armand and William lived or how you have got back to them? It may help to share as much as you know.
Also, I see there is a James Armand Carloman (possible later relative) who served in WW1. He was born 16 January 1897 and his father was Henry and mother Mary Ann
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Hi Wendy, I have found a newspaper account of Armond Carloman's burial in Belfast in 1898. If you haven't read this before please let me know and I'll transcribe it for you.
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Hi Wendy, there is a birth of a Armond Carloman in Q1 of 1866 in Blackburn registration district. Is this your ancestor?
Do you know where Armand and William lived or how you have got back to them? It may help to share as much as you know.
Also, I see there is a James Armand Carloman (possible later relative) who served in WW1. He was born 16 January 1897 and his father was Henry and mother Mary Ann
from new GRO index, Armond Carloman's mother's maiden name was Horden. But can't find a likely marriagr
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Armond Carloman is aged 35 in 1881 census (Trallwmgollen, Montgomeryshire) living with his wife Catherine and children William and Christina.
Armond gives his birthplace as Paris, France; Catherine as Belfast, Ireland
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A Henry Carloman age 24 traveller married Mary Ann Eccleston in Birmingham on 7 Dec 1891. He says his father was Armon Carloman - Traveller. Henry can be found on 1891 census with brother William, both occupations are Showman - menagerie. They say they were born in Warwickshire but can't find birth regs. Henry and William aren't much younger than the Armond born in Blackburn RD, so he can't be their father, maybe another brother and Armon(d) senior is the father to them all?
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Yes Lizzie, Armond Carloman born 1866 must be a child of Armond Carloman (senior), born c. 1846, and Catherine
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A marriage between Armand snr and Catherine Horden would make everything fit nicely. Maybe in Ireland
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Hi Wendy, I have found a newspaper account of Armond Carloman's burial in Belfast in 1898. If you haven't read this before please let me know and I'll transcribe it for you.
Would love to have this, I have some very conflicting information but do have a death of Armond in Ireland( Civil registration index). Our direct connection comes from daughter Angelina born in 1857 to Mary Jordan in Glasgow, but that would make Armond 11 years old! Seems unlikely that there were two Armonds both travelling showmen, but only other documentation we have found is 1881 census in Wales where he is married to Catherine
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A marriage between Armand snr and Catherine Horden would make everything fit nicely. Maybe in Ireland
Have been unable to find a marriage certificate, but do have census return 1881 in Wales,wife Catherine and two of their children
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Hi Wendy, there is a birth of a Armond Carloman in Q1 of 1866 in Blackburn registration district. Is this your ancestor?
Do you know where Armand and William lived or how you have got back to them? It may help to share as much as you know.
Also, I see there is a James Armand Carloman (possible later relative) who served in WW1. He was born 16 January 1897 and his father was Henry and mother Mary Ann
from new GRO index, Armond Carloman's mother's maiden name was Horden. But can't find a likely marriagr
Hi Wendy, there is a birth of a Armond Carloman in Q1 of 1866 in Blackburn registration district. Is this your ancestor?
Do you know where Armand and William lived or how you have got back to them? It may help to share as much as you know.
Also, I see there is a James Armand Carloman (possible later relative) who served in WW1. He was born 16 January 1897 and his father was Henry and mother Mary Ann
date=1504891457]I have found James and established he is son of Henry and it would appear that Armond senior travelled across the centr of England and into Wales, perhaps even over wintering in Glasgow. William Coats also overwintered in Glasgow and travelled the south of Scotland and north of England in the season.
A marriage between Armand snr and Catherine Horden would make everything fit nicely. Maybe in Ireland
Have been unable to find a marriage certificate, but do have census return 1881 in Wales,wife Catherine and two of their children
[/quote]
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Just came across this one on freebmd
Marriages Dec 1880
CERLOMEN Armond Nottingham 7b/415
JOHNSTON Catherine Nottingham
and from a disc
06 Dec 1880 St Mary Nottingham
Catherine Johnston
Armond Cerlomen
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There is a baptism as I am struggling to find birth info
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Christancia Carloman
Birth 26 Sep 1867
Baptism date 02 Sep 1868
parents Hermann Carloman and Maria Jordan
St Francis Xavier, Oldbury, Dudley, Birmingham
I think the godparents are Augustimus Porri and Anna.
If so think he is Austin Porri who marries Annie Nixon, John Porri, his father was a hawker. Austin's marriage is online and matches his occ. on the census returns as photographer and born in Nottingham. He travelled a bit too looking at census returns.
Is it your tree online with wife Mary Jordan?
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Hi,
James COATS and Ann CARLOMAN
Place of marriage : Blythswood,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
Date of Marriage : 05/25/1875
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Marriage of Henry CARLOMAN (son of Armon CARLOMAN) and Mary Ann ECCLESTON
Place of marriage : St. Stephen's, Birmingham, Warwick, England
Date of Marriage : 12/07/1891
Henry CARLOMAN is 33 years old in the 1901 census (Stafford St Pauls). He is a dobby horse proprietor. His wife is 32.
in 1891 (Sherburn, Durham), he is a showman (menagerie) with his brother Wm.
In 1894, a son, John William Henry, baptized on August 2d (St. Mark's, Wolverhampton, Stafford) Place of Birth : 1 Court, 3 House, Darlington Street.
In 1895, a daughter, Caroline, baptized on June 20th (St. Mark's, Wolverhampton, Stafford). Place of Birth : Darlington Arms Yard, Darlington Street.
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The wife of Armand CARLOMAN senior ?
Name: Mary Carloman
Birth: abt 1831
Death: Oct 1875 - Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland
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The Era London, England
7 May 1898
THE SHOWMAN WORLD
the fair at Reading, Berks. In the presence of a considerable nurmrber of his old friends, the remains of the late Mr Armond Carloman were laid at rest on Friday morning, 29th ult., in Knock Burial Ground, near Beltast. The attendance included Mr W. Toft
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Wednesfield St Thomas's Parish Register Indexes: Burials, 1751
blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB149_PRI_41_C1/
Traduire cette page
5 Jun 1878, CADMAN, James, 72 of Wolverhampton. son of Robert Cadman ... 24 Aug 1895, CARLOMAN, John William Henry, 19 months of Wolverhampton
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Celtic Traveller - Background | Family Tree DNA
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/celtic.../about/background
Traduire cette page
CARLOMAN (Ref PAGE107; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s) .... CLUETT (Wolverhampton -Staffordshire 1861 Census)
DEATHS CARLOMAN—September 30. at her residence, 2, Rochester Street. Ravenhill Road, Belfast, Catherine, relict of the late Armond Carloman. Her remains will removed from above address, to-morrow (Thursday)
View article
Type: Article
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Hi Wendy, I have found a newspaper account of Armond Carloman's burial in Belfast in 1898. If you haven't read this before please let me know and I'll transcribe it for you.
Would love to have this, I have some very conflicting information but do have a death of Armond in Ireland( Civil registration index). Our direct connection comes from daughter Angelina born in 1857 to Mary Jordan in Glasgow, but that would make Armond 11 years old! Seems unlikely that there were two Armonds both travelling showmen, but only other documentation we have found is 1881 census in Wales where he is married to Catherine
His death cert is online, number 201
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05833/4651769.pdf
Aged 50, owner of a shooting gallery, married.
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Is this Catherine? number 372
Died 1902, wife of Armond Carloman contractor, widow aged 70.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1902/05681/4601090.pdf
The address matches the notice, Rochester St.
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Not sure what age she is claiming but this looks like Catherine in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000706759/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau/Dublin_Street/1209925/
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There is also a death of a 2 year old Louisa in 1880 but the image of the cert isn't online yet.
I don't see a birth for her in Ireland.
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Catherine left a will
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014912/005014912_00300.pdf
I think it should be available on one of the Northern Ireland sites but which one escapes me.
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Hi Wendy, here is the published notice of death and account of Armond Carloman's funeral in Belfast in 1898. Very interesting. Check out the American circus owner.
The Era, 30 April 1898
CARLOMAN. – April 27th, at his residence 5, Concord-street, Belfast, Armond Carloman, horse ------ of nature at one time with Forepaugh’s Circus (American circuit). Well known to all British showmen. Inserted by his old pal Mr. W. Toft.
The Era, 7 May 1898
In the presence of a considerable number of his old friends, the remains of the late Mr. Armond Carloman were laid to rest on Friday morning, 29th ult., in Knock Burial Ground, near Belfast. The attendance included Mr. W. Toft (who travelled specially from Dublin to be present), Mr. J. Turnbull, Mr. James Carter and Mr. Chas. Belbert (representing the profession the deceased formerly followed, viz., that of a showman), Master Frank Whitton (representing Mr. Leo Whitton, the Canadian giant), Mons. De Cone (conjuror), and Professor Ferguson (illusionist). Several hundreds of Belfast’s citizens also followed the cortége through the city, and fully fifty of the deceased’s intimate acquaintances wended their way to the cemetery at Knock, which is situated at least three miles from Belfast. An impressive service was rendered at deceased’s last residence, 5 Concord-street, Belfast, by the Rev. Mr Kernedy, who also officiated at the grave, the concluding scene being most affecting. Mr. Carloman was well known to all English and American showmen and fulfilled a most lucrative engagement with the late Adam Forepaugh’s Circus in America, afterwards travelling with his own novelties throughout the whole of Great Britain and Ireland.
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To try and summarise, I think this is what we know about Armond Carloman, his wives and children:
Unknown date – born, Paris, France
1863/4 – Birth of son, William Carloman, Wolverhampton
1866 – Birth of son, Armond Carloman, Blackburn
1867 – Birth of son, Henry Carloman, Wolverhampton
1868 – Birth of daughter, Christina/Christancia Carloman, Birmingham
1870 – Birth and death of son, Albert Edward Carloman, Bury
1875 – Death of 1st wife, Mary/Maria Jordan, Newcastle upon Tyne
1880 – Marriage to 2nd wife, Catherine Johnston, Nottingham
1881 – Census, resident in Trallwmgollen, Montgomeryshire
1898 – Death, Belfast
So, can a marriage be found for Armond Carloman (XXXX – 1898) and Mary/Maria Jordan (c. 1831-1875), most likely a short time before 1864?
Did Armond and Catherine have any children?
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Henry and William CARLOMAN in the 1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW7P-V3Z
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To try and summarise, I think this is what we know about Armond Carloman, his wives and children:
Unknown date – born, Paris, France
1863/4 – Birth of son, William Carloman, Wolverhampton
1866 – Birth of son, Armond Carloman, Blackburn
1867 – Birth of son, Henry Carloman, Wolverhampton
1868 – Birth of daughter, Christina/Christancia Carloman, Birmingham
1870 – Birth and death of son, Albert Edward Carloman, Bury
1875 – Death of 1st wife, Mary/Maria Jordan, Newcastle upon Tyne
1880 – Marriage to 2nd wife, Catherine Johnston, Nottingham
1881 – Census, resident in Trallwmgollen, Montgomeryshire
1898 – Death, Belfast
So, can a marriage be found for Armond Carloman (XXXX – 1898) and Mary/Maria Jordan (c. 1831-1875), most likely a short time before 1864?
Did Armond and Catherine have any children?
Our great grandmother Angelina(Ann) was married in Glasgow on 25th May 1875, aged 18 to James Coats. Her parents were Armond and Mary ms Jordan and both still living on that date.Would suggest wedding Armond/Mary was in 1850's and Angelina was his first child
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Hi Wendy, there is a birth of a Armond Carloman in Q1 of 1866 in Blackburn registration district. Is this your ancestor?
Do you know where Armand and William lived or how you have got back to them? It may help to share as much as you know.
Also, I see there is a James Armand Carloman (possible later relative) who served in WW1. He was born 16 January 1897 and his father was Henry and mother Mary Ann
from new GRO index, Armond Carloman's mother's maiden name was Horden. But can't find a likely marriagr
Looks like what the GRO index transcribes as Horden should be Jorden/ Jordan
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Hi Wendy, there is a birth of a Armond Carloman in Q1 of 1866 in Blackburn registration district. Is this your ancestor?
Do you know where Armand and William lived or how you have got back to them? It may help to share as much as you know.
Also, I see there is a James Armand Carloman (possible later relative) who served in WW1. He was born 16 January 1897 and his father was Henry and mother Mary Ann
from new GRO index, Armond Carloman's mother's maiden name was Horden. But can't find a likely marriagr
Looks like what the GRO index transcribes as Horden should be Jorden/ Jordan
Thankyou, we have so much conflicting documentation, that what started out as a half hour dalliance while a shower passed has turned into a marathon! Previous research had Catherine as mother but have now changed this to Mary Jordan but have been unable to find proof. We are relative newcomers to genealogy and not very IT literate so sruggling somewhat
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Hi Wendy, the proof of Mary Jordan being the mother of Angelina is evidenced in her 1875 marriage certificate, which shows her parents as Armond Carloman and Mary Jordan. You also have the baptismal record for Christina/Christancia in 1868, which cites her mother as Maria Jordan. What would be nice would be to find baptismal records for the other children, Angelina included, as well as finding a marriage between Armond Carloman and Mary/Maria Jordan.
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Catherine left a will
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014912/005014912_00300.pdf
I think it should be available on one of the Northern Ireland sites but which one escapes me.
Hi, have just found will on ancestry, beneficiary a Thomas M'Candlis, another mystery!
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Have you contacted the Showmen's Guild to see what Archives they have?
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Just adding to davidqueneherve find
Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald
There is a snippet view which mentions...their leader Jack Taylor...and a very tough individual Carloman
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kow/
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I popped Adam Forepaugh in Chronicling America and there are some wonderful advertisements
Here's a couple
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01koz/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kox/
Adam Forepaugh...might help you look in America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Forepaugh
http://www.circusfans.org/res_det.php?res_id=328
http://www.circushistory.org/Routes/4P1878.htm
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Vimto
I really enjoyed looking at the papers after you posted your advice, it is very interesting.
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There are coats still traveling with fairground equipment, I have a lot of friends who are showman I'm sure there around the Carlisle area. You should contact the Showmans Guild of Great Britain Scottish section or the North of England Section see if they can help you out. They will have a record of all members past and present and what equipment they operate 90% of showman are members
Hope this helps
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Have been in to Nottingham
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Hope this helps
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Hope this helps
Thankyou, but am puzzled at his declaration of being a "bachelor" when we have evidence of at least five children with previous wife Mary/Maria Jordan, is it same person? Age also a slight concern, doesn't tie up with death in 1898.....good story teller?
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Hi Wendy, don't know if you are aware that there is a descendant of Angelinas with a profile on Geni. They also have the names Coats and Downie listed
Val
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Hi Wendy, don't know if you are aware that there is a descendant of Angelinas with a profile on Geni. They also have the names Coats and Downie listed
Val
Is there any way of getting this information without joining another geneology site? Free trials always catch me out and I find myself with membership of numerous sites!
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Have you tried the showmans guild?
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Have you tried the showmans guild?
e-mailed them but no reply so far
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Regards post on James armand carloman 16/1/1897 he is my grandfather he married Maggie Stevens they had 2 sons (James and Henry ) Henry was known as Harry ..who was my father (14/8/1931-06/03/2018
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Hi Chris, and welcome to RootsChat :)
I've asked the moderators to move your post to the thread you mentioned:
Moved.
Good luck!
Carol
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Regards post on James armand carloman 16/1/1897 he is my grandfather he married Maggie Stevens they had 2 sons (James and Henry ) Henry was known as Harry ..who was my father (14/8/1931-06/03/2018
Hi Chris, Your great grandfather Armond, is my husbands 2xgreat grandfather, can we share any information?