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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Allison Terry on Saturday 09 September 17 00:55 BST (UK)
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I am researching Eliza Jane Woolley born 14 November 1874. Her parents were William Phillip Woolley and Eliza Woolley (born Theabold). Eliza had a family with Charles Richards. There children were Ruby Ellen Richards b. 1888 Burwood she married Leslie George Speechley 1917. Percy James Richards b. 1891 Burwood he married Margaret Shaw 1920. Arthur Alfred (Alfred Arthur) Richards b. 28th October 1895. There were twins Rosamond and Richard b. 1897 d. 1897. Dorothy Elsie Florence Richards b. 1902 d. 1923. Llewellyn Charles Richards b. 14th July 1900 married Esther Lawrence 1920. Eliza Jane Woolley death record is Jane Richards , she is buried at Enfield St Thomas, she died in 1904 age 30 years. I haven't been able to find a marriage record for Eliza Woolley and Charles Richards, I am thinking they may never have married.
There is another Eliza Jane Woolley that I have found to be born in 1874 as well with the same parents. This Eliza married Daniel Joseph James in 1892 Burwood. Eliza Jane James died 14th July 1932 and the parents are William and Eliza. Death notice for Eliza James says late of Mascot.
It is confusing that there are two women with the same name and the same parents. If anyone else is researching this family and knows what the connection could be. It is possible that one of these ladies is a relative that has been reared with the same family and this is why the same parents are listed for both.
I look forward to a reply.
Kind Regards
Allison Terry
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Welcome to Rootschat, Alison
Are you referring to Burwood and Mascot, Sydney, NSW, Australia.
Jamjar
Added: Yes, I have answered my own question. ;D
2986/1892 JAMES Daniel J WOOLLEY Eliza J BURWOOD
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Thank you for your reply. Yes I am referring to Burwood and Mascot in Sydney.
Kind regards
Allison Terry
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Where have you found the following?
There is another Eliza Jane Woolley that I have found to be born in 1874 as well with the same parents.
I see:
2800/1874 WOOLLEY Eliza Jane WILLIAM PHILIP and ELIZA SYDNEY
5846/1876 WOOLLEY Eliza Jane JOHN and MARY ANN WATERLOO
Jamjar
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A death notice for a son of William and Eliza at WATERLOO:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13239525
On the 20th instant, at his parents' residence, Bullanaming street, Waterloo, WILLIAM ERNEST, the well-beloved and only surviving son of WILLIAM and ELIZA B. WOOLLEY, aged 2 years and 2 months.
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar,
Eliza Jane James (born Woolley) died 14th July 1932 and is buried at Eastern Suburbs Memorial Park Matriville and so is her husband Daniel Joseph James. The burial record states she was age 57 years so she was possibly born about 1874 or 1875. All of the family history research for Eliza Jane Woolley refers to Eliza Jane Woolley that married Daniel Joseph James at Burwood in 1892 and all the information says she is the daughter of William Phillip Woolley and Eliza Theabold.
I have researched Eliza Jane Woolley that was with Charles Henry Richards and on her death records found on the Australian Cemeteries Index it states that her parents were in fact William P Woolley and Eliza Theabold district BURWOOD. I want to prove that Eliza jane James is from the same family but not the daughter of William Phillip and Eliza, but it states on the death record that Eliza Jane James parents are William and Eliza district REDFERN.
When Eliza Jane Woolley died her death record says Jane Richards. On her headstone it has RICHARDS at the top with her name ELIZA JANE WOOLLEY 14-11-1874 - 30-12-1904 underneath followed by her husband Charles Henry Richards 18-5-1867 - 11-4-1949 (CREM) and the twins BABY 10-11-1897 and ROSAMOND 8 to 10-12-1897 and Dorothy E.F 21-12-1902 - 20-3-1923.
I would appreciate any information to help solve this puzzle.
Kind regards
Allison Terry
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Here is a death to John and Mary WOOLLEY also at WATERLOO.
3382/1879 WOOLLEY EDITH M JOHN and MARY A WATERLOO
It is possible that William P and John were brothers, or at least related.
Jamjar
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Sands 1877 Sydney directory
William WOOLLEY, gardener, Ross Street, Glebe
William WOOLLEY, Botany Street, Waterloo.
Sands 1873 Sydney directory
William WOOLLEY, grocer, Botany Street WATERLOO
Sands 1871 Sydney directory
W WOOLLEY, gardener, Junction St, Glebe
W WOOLLEY, grocer, Bullanaming S Waterloo
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory free to search, wonderful resource.
JM
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.....
When Eliza Jane Woolley died her death record says Jane Richards. On her headstone it has RICHARDS at the top with her name ELIZA JANE WOOLLEY 14-11-1874 - 30-12-1904 ....
NSW BDM online feature allows you to determine date of the event being registered. So for the 1874 birth ....
WOOLLEY Eliza Jane .... # 2800 registered Sydney BDM with parents as William Philip and Eliza I assure you that the deduced dob is 14 November 1874.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
JM
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Hi there JM,
Can you see John and Mary at WATERLOO?
Also, can you see the John Woolley who died 7 July 1913, on BDM? I can't find it. He is buried at Woronora with wife Mary Jane.
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15434984
Jamjar
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re
Hi Jamjar,
Eliza Jane James (born Woolley) died 14th July 1932 and is buried at Eastern Suburbs Memorial Park Matriville and so is her husband Daniel Joseph James. The burial record states she was age 57 years so she was possibly born about 1874 or 1875. All of the family history research for Eliza Jane Woolley refers to Eliza Jane Woolley that married Daniel Joseph James at Burwood in 1892 and all the information says she is the daughter of William Phillip Woolley and Eliza Theabold.
I have researched Eliza Jane Woolley that was with Charles Henry Richards and on her death records found on the Australian Cemeteries Index it states that her parents were in fact William P Woolley and Eliza Theabold district BURWOOD. I want to prove that Eliza jane James is from the same family but not the daughter of William Phillip and Eliza, but it states on the death record that Eliza Jane James parents are William and Eliza district REDFERN.
When Eliza Jane Woolley died her death record says Jane Richards. On her headstone it has RICHARDS at the top with her name ELIZA JANE WOOLLEY 14-11-1874 - 30-12-1904 underneath followed by her husband Charles Henry Richards 18-5-1867 - 11-4-1949 (CREM) and the twins BABY 10-11-1897 and ROSAMOND 8 to 10-12-1897 and Dorothy E.F 21-12-1902 - 20-3-1923.
I would appreciate any information to help solve this puzzle.
Kind regards
Allison Terry
NSW Electoral Roll 1902 PARKES, polling at Burwood
Jane RICHARDS, Duff Street, domestic duties.
NO others with that street address and that surname, no Charles Henry RICHARDS polling at Burwood.
JM
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Re NSW BDM ... until around 1918, the deaths register can be a tad flawed, particularly if an inquest was under consideration. Sometimes the burial occurred based on a Magistrate's order (community health considerations) but prior to formalising ALL the paperwork, and so NO-ONE remembered to lodge the civil registrations... and sometimes the handwriting was basically scribble, so it can be best if you know the date to search with the wildcard for surname and restrict the dates :)
JM
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Hi there,
Do you have the details recorded on the birth registration for Rosamond? What information does it give for when and where her parents married, and etc? (NSW BDM ref #30176/1897) (Index has the birth registered Burwood District with parents as Charles H and Jane E RICHARDS.
JM
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Hi there again,
What information is actually recorded on the 1892 marriage registration? NSW #2986/1892
(Daniel J JAMES and Eliza J WOOLLEY, registered Burwood district).
Particularly, on that civil registration who did the bride name as her parents? :) first hand info can often be reliable.
JM
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NSW BDM online index deaths
John WOOLLEY, registered Chatswood district # 12120/1913
...Also, can you see the John Woolley who died 7 July 1913, on BDM?......
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15434984
JM
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NSW BDM online index deaths
John WOOLLEY, registered Chatswood district # 12120/1913
...Also, can you see the John Woolley who died 7 July 1913, on BDM?......
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15434984
JM
No parents' names?
Jamjar
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father as John, blank in column for mother's given name.
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?27
JM
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Sands 1895 Sydney Directory
Daniel JAMES, Bay Street, Botany
Daniel JAMES, George Street, Hurstville.
Sands 1892 Suburban Directory Sydney
HURSTVILLE
George Street (Penhurst Estate) off Forest Street
Daniel JAMES, tailor.
NSW ER1902 LANG polling at Hurstville
Daniel JAMES, Penshurst Park, independent means
Daniel Ernest JAMES, Penshurst Park, bank Clerk
JM
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Sands 1890 Alpha directory
John WOOLLEY, sen, plumber, 9 Islington Street, Newtown
William WOOLLEY, gardener, 65 Mount Vernon Street, Forest Lodge
William WOOLLEY, Holmsdale Street, Marrickville
William P WOOLLEY, Powell Street, Homebush.
JM
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Sands 1892 Suburban: including the following here to show the transient nature of the Sydney population even in the 1890s.
STRATHFIELD including Homebush and other suburbs
Powell Street Homebush. Wentworth road to Powell’s creek South Side
William P WOOLEY (yes, just the one ‘l’)
GLEBE including Forest Lodge
65 Mount Vernon Street – Patrick GRAY, contractor
MARRICKVILLE
Holmsdale Street, - William WOOLLEY, fettler
NEWTOWN
9 Islington Street – Cyril HENNESS
Sydney Sands Alpha 1900
W WOOLLEY, Holmsdale St, Marrickville
W WOOLLEY 6 Victoria Square, Ashfield
JM
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Re William P WOOLLEY of Homebush...sad death of his brother, cutting names various family members. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113315143 20 Oct 1892 Evening News.
also
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71205348 22 Oct 1892 Town & Country
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138366789 19 Oct 1892 Cootamundra Herald
JM
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There are two William Ps
4899/1928 WOOLLEY William P parents WILLIAM P and ELIZA BALLINA
3940/1919 WOOLLEY William P parents THOMAS and CHARLOTTE PARRAMATTA
I think the 1919 may be the father of 1928. He was alive in 1914 when a notice was placed in paper, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article126474855
Jamjar
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Charles Henry RICHARDS death registered Liverpool in 1949. #11526, with parents recorded as Llewellyn and Phoebe. Perhaps the informant provided details as to his marriage to Eliza WOOLLEY.
NSWER 1902 PARKES polling at Strathfield
Llewellyn RICHARD (NOTE, no ‘s’) Highgate St, fencer
Phoebe RICHARDS Highgate Street, domestic duties.
There are others at Highgate Street with surname RICHARDS, but none are named Charles or Henry or variations on those names.
JM
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NSW ER 1878 CANTERBURY
Llewellyn RICHARDS, freehold Enfield.
NSW ER 1870 CANTERBURY
Llewellyn RICHARDS, freehold Enfield.
NSW State Archives has a Deceased Estates file for Llewellyn RICHARDS, died 7 Oct 1920, duty paid 26 Feb 1921. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives
Marriage 14th September 1861 Llewellyn RICHARDS and Phoebe COX. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13055651 SMH 16 Sept 1861
Phoebe RICHARDS funeral announcement, to St Thomas’ C of E Cemetery, Enfield.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16251739 SMH 31 Oct 1925
Llewellyn RICHARDS death announcement, Highgate St, Strathfield, aged 79 years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28088572 SMH 8 Oct 1920
and
his funeral announcement to St Thomas’ C of E Cemetery, Enfield
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/239768535 Tele 8 Oct 1920
JM
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There are two William Ps
4899/1928 WOOLLEY William P parents WILLIAM P and ELIZA BALLINA
3940/1919 WOOLLEY William P parents THOMAS and CHARLOTTE PARRAMATTA
I think the 1919 may be the father of 1928. He was alive in 1914 when a notice was placed in paper, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article126474855
Jamjar
The first daughter of William P and Eliza was Charlotte and first son Walter T (Thomas?)
Still not connecting him to John of WATERLOO. :-\
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Off track I know, but...
As a young'n I went to Sunday School at St Thomas' and lived at the other end of Coronation Parade.
I can still recall the Sunday dress, little hat and net gloves I wore.
J.
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An Alderman, William WOOLLEY at Waterloo ... 1871
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224330791 Govt Gazette 24 Feb 1871.
Hat and gloves and a small handbag ... and a text handed out to recite for next week :), standard for rural NSW too ...
JM
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Llewellyn and Phebe headstone photo. Lots of Richards buried at St Thomas':
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9841527#images
Jamjar
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Has the other wife of Charles Richards been mentioned?
son/Llewellyn & Phebe; b. Concord NSW; h/Eliza Jane Woolley & Mary (Coulson)
Jamjar
Added: Was second wife. Was thinking if she was first would be possible for no marriage to Eliza:
14032/1928 RICHARDS Charles H to COULSON Mary C BURWOOD
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Not sure if I have asked already, but do you have this marriage cert?
2986/1892 JAMES Daniel J to WOOLLEY Eliza J BURWOOD
Jamjar
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Where have you found the following?
There is another Eliza Jane Woolley that I have found to be born in 1874 as well with the same parents.
I see:
2800/1874 WOOLLEY Eliza Jane WILLIAM PHILIP and ELIZA SYDNEY
5846/1876 WOOLLEY Eliza Jane JOHN and MARY ANN WATERLOO
Jamjar
I think this is marriage of Eliza of John and Mary Ann:
5977/1896 FOSTER Robert H WOOLLEY Eliza J ROCKDALE
Death: 21267/1959 FOSTER Eliza Jane parents JOHN and MARY ANN CHATSWOOD
Jamjar
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1901 Daniel C birth registered Waterloo NSW BDM #27693. Parents as Daniel J and Eliza J JAMES.
1905 Daniel C JAMES death registered Waterloo, NSW BDM #7164. Parents as Daniel J and Eliza J.
Daniel Charles JAMES, aged three, died at the Coast Hospital from the effects of burns.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/239513817 15 June 1905 Tele.
WOOLLEY In loving memory of my dear brother, Walter Thomas Woolley, who departed this life August 23, 1904 aged 35 years. Inserted by his loving sister and brother in law, Lizzie and Daniel JAMES.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114464211 24 Aug 1905 Evening News.
NSW BDM online index has Walter T WOOLLEY’s death registered at St Leonards, parents as William P and Eliza. #11057/1904
To me, there's definitely two lasses Eliza (Lizzie) JAMES nee WOOLLEY and Jane (Eliza Jane) RICHARDS nee WOOLLEY.
JM
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It is entirely possible that Charles Henry RICHARDS was not formally married to Eliza Jane WOOLLEY, but it is actually fairly well known that the NSW BDM's index is flawed, particularly in respect of marriages likely to be within the years 1856 - 1895. (There was a long standing dispute between Church and State re the depth of details the State required)
May I suggest that an official transcription of a NSW BDM birth registration for one of Jane's and Charles' children should state when and where the couple married, and that would be a good clue to help follow up with further searchings.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx (Scroll down :D )
JM
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I am researching Eliza Jane Woolley born 14 November 1874. Her parents were William Phillip Woolley and Eliza Woolley (born Theabold). Eliza had a family with Charles Richards.
It is not looking like your Eliza Jane was the daughter of WOOLLEY/THEOBALD born in 1874.
WOOLLEY In loving memory of my dear brother, Walter Thomas Woolley, who departed this life August 23, 1904 aged 35 years. Inserted by his loving sister and brother in law, Lizzie and Daniel JAMES.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114464211 24 Aug 1905 Evening News.
NSW BDM online index has Walter T WOOLLEY’s death registered at St Leonards, parents as William P and Eliza. #11057/1904
I notice that your lady is always Jane/Jane E., not Eliza Jane. There are some gaps in the birth registrations for William Phillip and Eliza so is it possible that she is another daughter born close to Eliza Jane?
Does Jane's death cert give her mother's maiden surname - is that your source of information? Do you have one of the parents' death certs to get a list of children's names?
Debra :)
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I have researched Eliza Jane Woolley that was with Charles Henry Richards and on her death records found on the Australian Cemeteries Index it states that her parents were in fact William P Woolley and Eliza Theabold district BURWOOD.
On her headstone it has RICHARDS at the top with her name ELIZA JANE WOOLLEY 14-11-1874 - 30-12-1904 underneath followed by her husband Charles Henry Richards 18-5-1867 - 11-4-1949 (CREM) and the twins BABY 10-11-1897 and ROSAMOND 8 to 10-12-1897 and Dorothy E.F 21-12-1902 - 20-3-1923.
The penny has just dropped :)
The information on that site is submitted by someone and not necessarily fact. The plaque on the original headstone is quite new so has been put there by someone fairly recently and also not necessarily fact.
Debra :)
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I have researched Eliza Jane Woolley that was with Charles Henry Richards and on her death records found on the Australian Cemeteries Index it states that her parents were in fact William P Woolley and Eliza Theabold district BURWOOD.
On her headstone it has RICHARDS at the top with her name ELIZA JANE WOOLLEY 14-11-1874 - 30-12-1904 underneath followed by her husband Charles Henry Richards 18-5-1867 - 11-4-1949 (CREM) and the twins BABY 10-11-1897 and ROSAMOND 8 to 10-12-1897 and Dorothy E.F 21-12-1902 - 20-3-1923.
The penny has just dropped :)
The information on that site is submitted by someone and not necessarily fact. The plaque on the original headstone is quite new so has been put there by someone fairly recently and also not necessarily fact.
Debra :)
Yes, I'd thought the exact same, Debra.
Jamjar
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If William Ps folks were Thomas and Charlotte, then I believe I may have found sisters entering to Victoria:
15 9 AUG 233 LADY KENNAWAY 1853 WOOLLEY, CHARLOTTE A
18 9 AUG 233 LADY KENNAWAY 1853 WOOLLEY, ROSA A
21 9 AUG 233 LADY KENNAWAY 1853 WOOLLEY, JANE E
1042/1857 MORRISON John WOOLLEY Elizabeth Augusta SYDNEY (Elizabeth is incorrect, see notice)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60264318
6363/1901 MORRISON Charlotte A W parents THOMAS and CHARLOTTE NEWTOWN
Birth: WOOLLEY, CHARLOTTE AUGUSTA mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1838 J Quarter in CANTERBURY Volume 05 Page 70
1430/1861 BUTTER John to WOOLLEY Rosa Annie BINALONG
8890/1896 BUTLER Rosa A parents THOMAS and CHARLOTTE SYDNEY
Brother William wants contact with Jane, 4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12958912
WOOLLEY, HENRY JAMES mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in CANTERBURY IN THE CITY AND COUNTY OF THE CITY OF C Volume 05 Page 55
WOOLLEY, JAMES mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH AND CLAPHAM UNION Volume 04 Page 471
WOOLLEY, THOMAS mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1843 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH AND CLAPHAM UNION Volume 04 Page 535
WOOLLEY, CHARLES WISE mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1844 J Quarter in CANTERBURY Volume 05 Page 72
WOOLLEY, HENRY RICHARD mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1844 J Quarter in CANTERBURY Volume 05 Page 72
WOOLLEY, JOHN EILDEN mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in CANTERBURY Volume 05 Page 66
WOOLLEY, PHILIP SAMUEL mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in CANTERBURY Volume 05 Page 64
WOOLLEY, WILLIAM mmn MARSH
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in WANDSWORTH AND CLAPHAM UNION Volume 04 Page 534
George Henry born Canterbury, UK, 1834
4067/1897 WOOLLEY George H parents JOHN T UNKNOWN BLAYNEY
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14121930
Looks like mother Charlotte senior was in Adelaide and died in NSW, 3rd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article207742159
5249/1869 WOOLLEY Charlotte parents JOHN M and MARY ORANGE
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Hi Debra,
I don't have any certificates of birth death or marriage for Eliza Jane Woolley that had a family with Charles Henry Richards. I have relied on the information from Australian cemeteries index. I feel disappointed that the information on the headstone may be wrong. The fact that all the children are registered in Charles and Jane Richards could be to differentiate between the two Elizas in the family. When I read the death notice for Walter Thomas Woolley and Lizzie James was mentioned as his sister I didn't know what to think. Now I need to se if I can get a copy of one of the children's birth certificate's perhaps I will find the answer there. Thank you to everyone for the information you have provided me.
Kind regards
Allison Terry
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I wonder about the inscription on the headstone on which that plaque has been mounted. Perhaps the headstone had been transcribed long before the newer plaque was even under consideration and perhaps the sponsor for the plaque had taken the information on the headstone into account, or perhaps on the other hand had overlooked the original headstone.
https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9841470#images
JM
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NSW ER 1878 EDEN, police district of Broulee
William WOLLY, residence, Moruya Heads.
GREVILLES PO Directory 1875 Moruya
Wm WOOLY, boatman, Moruya Heads.
NSW BDM online index has following births INDEXED for William P and Eliza WOOLLEY:
1868 Walter T, #11818, Moama
1874 Eliza Jane, (William Philip !) #2800, Sydney
1877 Unnamed, #9322, Broulee
1879 Charles N (William Philip and Eliza Theabald as given names !) #10765, Broulee
1884 Louisa #5844, Canterbury
1887 Anne, #5393, Canterbury
If this were my family I would consider the official transcription of the 1887 birth for Anne to confirm all her older siblings, and details of their parents.
JM
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NSW ER ORANGE 1870
WOOLLEY as a surname
G.H. household, Orange
Philip, residence, Orange
Thomas, residence, Gosling Creek
Charles, residence, Orange
John, residence, Orange.
GREVILLES 1875 PO Directory Orange
John WOOLLEY, carpenter, Kite Street
NSW ER ORANGE 1878
John Frederick WOOLLEY, residence, Orange.
NO others with that surname on that roll.
NSW ER WEST SYDNEY 1878
Charles P WOOLLEY, freehold, 32 Cumberland Street No, this chap was Charles Percy WOOLLEY as per jury, SMH 8 May 1868 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13165754
JM
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NSW ER 1878 CARCOAR
George H WOOLLEY, freehold, Blayney
JM
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Hi Alison,
Which family are your ancestors .... RICHARDS or JAMES ... :)
JM
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I am related to the Richards through marriage. My mother in laws mother was born a Richards. Llewellyn Charles Richards is my mother in laws grandfather.
I just discovered a Jane Woolley that had a baby girl Jane Woolley in 1885 Canterbury the baby died 1885. Jane also had Ruby. Percy and Arthur all last name Woolley. It appears when she met Charles Richards she changed there names to Richards.
I am wondering if I should get a certificate for one of these children before their name was changed. Any advice welcome.
Kind regards
Allison
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I think you will find that it each child's birth is indexed under both surnames but it is the ONE registration ;D
For example Percy J's 1891 birth registration is referenced #9532
When you then select the option at NSW BDM online index "Do you know the registration number of the Birth you are searching for? " and select YES (default is no) you will find Percy's birth INDEXED twice, under two different surnames.
Their surnames on the register did not change. Until about 1969, NO SURNAMES were actually recorded on birth registrations in NSW. The surname aspect of the index is there as a pointer. I am NSW born, so too, my siblings, my parents, my grandparents, back ummm.... a stack of generations. The surname on the INDEX is drawn from the mother's details, and not actually from dad's surname. It is the surname the mother was using at the time, and often when there's more than one surname on the index, it is because at the time of the registration it was unclear to the registrar if the mum was formally married. :)
If this were my family I would order the official transcription of the youngest child's birth registration.
Add
As an aside, and looking at various versions of my own NSW BDM issued birth certificate ....
:) the one issued as an extract : My parents were married to each other, so the surname is the same as the one my mother was using at that time (ie her married surname).
:) On the certificate issued by the local district deputy registrar (my birth was registered in rural NSW) back in the late 1940s ... there's NO surname, no column heading for FAMILY NAME or SURNAME of baby.
:) And on the certified copy obtained THIS century, there's a heading "family name" and of course it contains my maiden surname I had until I married. :)
All my older and young siblings have all three versions of our birth registrations. :) Only the more recent version is now considered 'valid' for the purposes of ID eg passports etc.
JM
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NSW BDM online index has following births INDEXED for William P and Eliza WOOLLEY:
1868 Walter T, #11818, Moama
1874 Eliza Jane, (William Philip !) #2800, Sydney
1877 Unnamed, #9322, Broulee
1879 Charles N (William Philip and Eliza Theabald as given names !) #10765, Broulee
1884 Louisa #5844, Canterbury
1887 Anne, #5393, Canterbury
There was also a son Thomas John born in Queensland in 1872, so if they were moving around a bit that might be an explanation of missing birth registrations if there are any.
Debra :)
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Thank you JM.
The more I read the posts the more convinced I am that there have been alot of errors in records kept by BDM. I have heaps of questions now. Why doesn't the headstone have Jane E Woolley on it, as she was obviously known as Jane not Eliza?. When was she really born if she was born 14 Nov 1874 is it possible she had her first baby at the age of 11
I think that is unlikely. Her birth year has to be in the 1860s to be realistic.
I did find a Jane C Woolley born in 1868 her parents were Thomas Woolley and Catherine A Wright.
I am thinking maybe Jane was orphaned and possibly reared by William and Eliza but how do you explain the headstone having Eliza Jane Woolley instead of Jane E.
I really hope we can crack this mystery.
Allison 😉
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I think the plaque contains misleading information. There's no-one charged with the authority to check headstone/tombstone/plaque information. It is 'submitted' by 'interested' people.
I think you need to obtain NSW BDM official transcription for the birth registration of child/ren of Charles RICHARDS to determine information about their mum.
Most INDEXES, including today's databases, will have flawed information. NSW BDM's online index was initially based on an index prepared in the 1930s when teams of volunteers helped go through the original holdings and transcribed the longhand writing, some of which was first recorded back 1787 baptisms in the first fleet.
JM
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The mum of Charles' children does NOT have to be born in New South Wales :)
JM
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....
I have researched Eliza Jane Woolley that was with Charles Henry Richards and on her death records found on the Australian Cemeteries Index it states that her parents were in fact William P Woolley and Eliza Theabold district BURWOOD. I want to prove that Eliza jane James is from the same family but not the daughter of William Phillip and Eliza, but it states on the death record that Eliza Jane James parents are William and Eliza district REDFERN ....
The information on the Australian Cemeteries Index is based on the information on the plaque. It has not been validated, but it is there like all information in any index as a pointer to help the researcher look for the primary record. So for example when reading the inscription info for Eliza Jane you can drill down and there's a list of children, including Ruby Ellen. And then when I go to NSW BDM online Index for births ... there's a birth for a Ruby E registered at Katoomba in 1894 with parents indexed as Charles H and Elizabeth RICHARDS. (#17294) .... You would need to obtain the actual information on the actual birth registration to learn if her mum was 'your' Eliza Jane WOOLLEY.
It is the intrigue that makes family history such an addictive hobby. ;D
I am often considered to be old fashioned and/or pedantic when it comes to family history searchings. But to me, when I read that someone has researched a NSW person, that use of the word 'research' and NSW .... well it means they have found the information on official records, not just found indexes. You will find others will disagree with me, but if you seek out official records and then develop your questions from there, you will become less disappointed with the flaws in both indexes and actual documents.
JM
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I have just purchased a copy of the birth certificate for Dorothy Richards which is the youngest child of Charles and Jane. Hopefully it will provide some useful information.
Jane Richards death certificate has William P and Eliza as her parents. Would the death certificate have the correct date of birth on it and list all her children and husband?
I wondered if it would be worthwhile getting a copy of it.
Kind regards,
Allison 😊
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Alison, are you using a transcription agent for the certificates. It's a cheaper option and they send by email.
I'd wait to get the child's birth certificate before getting the death cert.
Jamjar
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Thank you for the advice. I purchased the birth certificate for Dorothy Richards from BDM NSW. I didn't know you could get it from a transcription service. I paid $33 and it will be emailed to me.
Could you please recommend a transcription website.
Kind regards,
Allison 😊
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... there's a birth for a Ruby E registered at Katoomba in 1894 with parents indexed as Charles H and Elizabeth RICHARDS. (#17294) .... You would need to obtain the actual information on the actual birth registration to learn if her mum was 'your' Eliza Jane WOOLLEY.
JM
JM the birth of Ruby E is I think this one....
RICHARDS RUBY E
5447/1888
CHARLES H
JANE E
BURWOOD
WOOLLEY RUBY E
5447/1888
JANE E
BURWOOD
Makes Jane a very young Mum if she was born in 1874, but I think we have established that she wasn't that child born to William and Eliza.
I agree with Jamjar - wait for the birth cert which will give you Jane's age and birthplace.
Transcription agents are listed here:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
Debra :)
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Sent a link to one via PM.
Jamjar
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NSW BDM's own website : http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx Scroll down to the heading "Ask a family history transcription agent"
Any of those three are excellent.
JM
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Yes, I agree with Debra and Jamjar. Wait until the real deal cert arrives before proceeding.
Yes, agree Debra re Ruby E, but the Katoomba listing shows there's more than one chap named Charles H RICHARDS.... :)
JM
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Some speculations from my armchair….. INDEX searchings at NSW BDM online and then follow up from gleaned clues…
1863 William P WOOLLEY and Eliza THEOBALD’s marriage registered Albury NSW #1281
1910 Eliza WOOLLEY death registered Casino NSW, aged 65 years, and index notes under father’s given name : (Theabold)
Richmond River Herald http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/126474855 6 Jan 1911
In Memoriam
WOOLLEY
In affectionate remembrance of Eliza Woolley, who died at Riley’s Hill on 20th January, 1910; aged 65. Deeply regretted. Inserted by her loving husband and family.
Richmond River Herald http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/126477221 28 Jan 1910
RETURN THANKS
The family of the late Mrs W P Woolley desire to express appreciation extended towards them by the residents of Riley’s Hill and the district …..
https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=2496854 (Woodburn Anglican Cemetery NSW)
NSW ER 1902 RICHMOND, polling at Riley’s Hill
Charles Newstead WOOLLEY, of Riley’s Hill, labourer
Eliza WOOLLEY, of Riley’s Hill, domestic duties
Margaret Jane WOOLLEY, of Riley’s Hill, domestic duties
William Phillip WOOLLEY of Riley’s Hill, labourer
William Phillip, junior WOOLLEY of Riley’s Hill, labourer.
NSW ER 1913 LISMORE polling at Riley’s Hill
WOOLLEY
Margaret Jane, Dungarubba, domestic duties
William Phillip, Dungarubba, labourer
(JM comments, so the enrolment no longer includes 'junior')
https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=2496560
William aged 60 died 1928 and Margaret his wife died 1957 aged 85 (hard to read her age) Woodburn Roman Catholic Cemetery
I have not found where Eliza WOOLLEY's husband (William Philip WOOLLEY) was buried...
I am very doubtful about the following chap, there's simply so many chaps named William Philip WOOLLEY in NSW in that era...
NSW BDM online
Deaths 1919 WOOLLEY William P #3940 Parents as Thomas and Charlotte, registered Parramatta.
Cumberland Argus 19 Feb 1919 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/86109986
Death
WOOLLEY – February 17th, at his late residence, Mr N Gilchrist’s, Phillip Street Parramatta, William Philip WOOLLEY, in his 93rd year. “Peace, perfect peace”
OOPS ... missed the following:
Sands Sydney Alpha 1920
Mr Nor. M. GILCHRIST, 58 Phillip Street, Parramatta.
JM
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I was able to get a photo of Eliza James headstone which said she was 57 years old when she died. This means she was born 1874 or 1875. She is buried at eastern suburbs memorial park matraville with daughter grace James. I am still waiting for the birth certificate I ordered from bdm. I am hoping it will be emailed to me today so I find out more about Jane Richards.
Allison 😊
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I have just received the birth certificate for a daughter of Jane Eliza Woolley and Charles Richards.
Dorothy Elice Richards was born 21 December 1902 in Plymouth Street Enfield, NSW.
Mother: Jane Eliza Woolley age 32 years, born at Orange NSW.
Father: Charles Henry Richards, Labourer General, age 35 years, born Enfield, NSW.
They were not married and there are no other children listed .
Informant name and address: J. Richards, Plymouth Street, Enfield, NSW, Mother
The birth was registered 9th February 1903
From the information on the birth certificate it is obvious that Jane Eliza Woolley was born abt 1870 in Orange NSW. It is a shame the other children weren't listed on Dorothy's birth certificate but at least I know that Jane wasn't born in 1874. The information on the headstone for Eliza Jane Woolley is incorrect as her name was Jane Eliza and the birth year is wrong also.
Not sure what to do next. Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Kind regards
Allison Terry
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Relevant thread started today
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=779214.0
Cando
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I still think that there is a good chance that Jane was the daughter of William P WOOLLEY and Eliza THEOBALD as there is a spot for her between Walter in 1868 (Moama) and Thomas in 1872 (Queensland). Just my opinion, but I would want to prove once and for all whether or not she was a part of that family.
You do need to get another certificate, the choices being the birth cert of one of the children of William and Eliza which should name previous issue. The birth cert for the youngest is always preferable as you may also find that others missed registration. This info will be of value if they do turn out to be yours.
The death cert for William or Eliza which should name all of their children and show their position in the family, or the death cert for your Jane to see if her mother's maiden name is recorded. Death certs can be very good or a load of old cobblers, depending on who the informant was, so it is a bit of a lucky dip.
Debra :)
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Ummm.....
NSW ER 1902 PARKES Polling at Enfield
All these are surnamed RICHARDS
Adelaide, Plymouth Street, domestic duties
Annie Harriett, Heydon Street, domestic duties
Charles Henry, Plymouth Street, labourer
Frederick, Baker Street, labourer
Harriett, George Street, domestic duties
Jane Eliza, Baker Street, domestic duties
Josiah William, George Street, train examiner
Patience Eliza, Baker Street, domestic duties
Mary, Burwood Road, domestic duties
William, Burwood Road, fencer
William James, Plymouth Street, labourer.
NONE for that polling place (Enfield) with surname WOOLLEY or similar.
So there's at least two lasses with surname RICHARDS in same electorate, in 1902 .... 1902, first roll with females. I will try to find spare moment tomorrow to go through each polling place in that electorate. Alternatively, I recall there's perhaps commercial family history websites with the 1903-4 NSW rolls. :)
There's Woolley males in Orange in 1870 roll :)
JM
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I still think that there is a good chance that Jane was the daughter of William P WOOLLEY and Eliza THEOBALD as there is a spot for her between Walter in 1868 (Moama) and Thomas in 1872 (Queensland). Just my opinion, but I would want to prove once and for all whether or not she was a part of that family.
You do need to get another certificate, the choices being the birth cert of one of the children of William and Eliza which should name previous issue. The birth cert for the youngest is always preferable as you may also find that others missed registration. This info will be of value if they do turn out to be yours.
The death cert for William or Eliza which should name all of their children and show their position in the family, or the death cert for your Jane to see if her mother's maiden name is recorded. Death certs can be very good or a load of old cobblers, depending on who the informant was, so it is a bit of a lucky dip.
Debra :)
If this were my family, I would be ordering the Official transcription (so not ordering the real deal expensive certificate) of the NSW birth of Anne WOOLLEY, born in 1887, birth registered Canterbury district. Ref No. 5393/1887. In my opinion, any of the three official transcription agents will provide excellent service and all reputable family history buffs with NSW focus will accept the official transcription as though it is the real deal, expensive certificate. As to the apparent errors on the new plaque at St Thomas cemetery, perhaps best to leave it be for now, while you sort out some of the confusion. Don't fret over the whys and wherefores, the person who paid for that plaque obviously had the best of intentions and I doubt there was any intention to deceive or mis-lead.
JM
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Thank you for the information about Anne Woolley. I appreciate your advice.
Allison 😊
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I received the death certificate today for Jane Richards born Woolley. Her parents were William Philip Woolley and Eliza Thepold. Jane was born at Orange. She married Charles Henry Richards at Blacktown Sydney at abt age 25yrs. Jane was 35yrs when she died.
The certificate lists all her children and their ages.
I am certain I now have closure. Thank you to all the people who gave me information and loads of good advice.
Kind regards
Allison 😊
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Just a quick observation re Memorial Inscriptions. There is no authority that needs to be contacted when commissioning a memorial (other than making sure the style accords with the requirements of the cemetery) and the details given to the stonemason are not checked by anyone.
I am somewhat ashamed to say that my own mother's headstone has the date of her death wrong - only by one day. I thought the stonemason had made the mistake but when I looked at my correspondence I found that the mistake was mine!! :-[ :( :o As it was only one day I haven't had it corrected but another genealogist in the future may be irritated by this. One of Mum's friends pointed it out and I hadn't even noticed. ::) 8)
Judith
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Hi Allison,
I was most interested to read this thread - Mary Coulson, Charles' second wife, was my great aunt. I'll send you a PM.
Jan
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Hi Alison, I too am most interested in this thread. Eliza Jane Woolley's father is a connection of mine. I would be most keen to hear from you. Towaninnie.