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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: fedupp on Sunday 10 September 17 19:31 BST (UK)
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Just wondering if somone could explain the workings of the bastardy settlement system in northamptonshire ,specificaly the weldon area and up to which dates it was still in use . Thanks
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As I understand it, bastards were usually settled where they were born. Irrespective of where either father or mother were settled.
I have a settlement examination which said,
Charles Cook James of Pattishall, Labr now in Workhouse 28 Oct 1850
I am now about 25 years of age and was born at Farthinghoe in this County. My mother was then a single woman named Elizabeth James now the wife of Hugh Ashby of Astcote Pattishall, shoemaker. My Mother belonged to Pattishall. I was about 12 months old when my Mother came to reside at Astcote. She was in service at Farthinghoe.
Result: deemed to be settled at Farthinghoe.
Workhouses were still trying to work out which parishes people were chargeable to into the 20th century.
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Prawn coctail thank you for that .interesting. .. Even .into the 20th century !!
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The reason they were still using the system, was money.
Each parish was responsible for setting its own rates, and contributing to the ongoing costs of the Workhouse. So most of the paupers were still allocated to their parish, to know what the parish's share of the incoming rates should be. Workhouses were transferred to the County Councils by the Local Government Act of 1929, but the last ones weren't closed until the 1948 National Assistance Act, although most of them by then were either used for the elderly or children.
Even as late as 1973, I was taken into an old people's home while on a work placement, which was in an old Workhouse, where the elderly just had a cubicle in a dormitory, and a chest of drawers and a wardrobe opposite their beds. Even though it was brightly painted, and the staff had done their best to make it look nice, it still sticks in my mind with horror.
If you ever get to see the Workhouse admission books, you will find them arranged by parish, with the paupers listed under their parish with the exact number of days they were in the workhouse recorded each week
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Prawn cocktail Thanks. .... I remember, When I was young and my grans health was deteriorating rapidly, she had to be taken to a Geriatric ward which was independent of the local hospital . This building was a former workhouse , the older generation still called it the workhouse . I'll never forget the look of fear on her face as she was taken away .as in the case you mentioned ,the sttaff tried their best....but... it was still...in her mind... the workhouse . .thankfully ,her time was near, her stay was a short one !!
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What about a villiage like weldon ,they wouldn't have had a workhouse as we would know it ,as in a larger town ? So when one sees a census where somone is noted as" on the parish" would they stay in their home and the rent then would be paid by the parish ? Thanks
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The parishes of Great Weldon and Little Weldon were constituents of first, the Oundle Poor Law Union, then (from 1896) the Kettering Poor Law Union (which administered the Poor Laws, including Bastardy Orders).
There is info on the Workhouses on the excellent Workouses.org.uk website:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Kettering/
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Oundle/
There is loads of info on that site as the history of Poor Law Unions, and the Poor Laws themselves.
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KGarrad. Thanks for that . Should make for interesting reading.
Could you tell me ..if there was an illigitimate birth. Have you heard of the child having one of its forenames being named after the surname of the father eventhough there is no father named on church baptism or civil birth cert. ?
Thanks
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Oh yes!
I was doing a friend's tree; Isle of Man based family.
His grandmother never married, and all her children took her surname of Christian.
They all had a final "forename" of Conway! All 6 of them!
I even looked at the Parish Registers (the actual book), found all the baptisms, and still no father mentioned. ;D
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Hi.
fedupp what is the name of the person that you are enquiring after in case there is a bastardy order.
Sandy
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KGarrad thanks. Wow ! That certainly makes a statement then ! All 6 of them ! So would it have been quite common to do this ? I was thinking of a person who was born 1890 . For that time would it have been a common thing to do ? Would it tell everyone ....like hey , the father was actually ******** , and even though he isn't or can't stand up to his resonsibilities ...we want everyone to know who he ( the father) is ??
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Hi sandy. One person I was. Thinking about was a lady called. Alice loveday Freeman born 13th nov 1890 , baptised 15 th feb 1891. Great weldon .mother mary ann freeman.
Thanks
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Loveday is also just a christian name as well as a Surname.
If you put Loveday, just christian name, no surname, into births on FreeBMD there are 100's of them.
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Trish1120.thanks ,I did realise it was also a christian name ,though I didn't realise it was that common and especialy in that area !
Ref . Alice ,there were a couple of lovedays ( surname ) living nearby in weldon around that time . Just thought it may be a hint /statement ?? Could be wrong ?
Think there was a baptist minister called loveday in weldon. Could have been he was kind to someone in freeman family or ....there could be no significance at all ?? Who knows !
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Yes, any of those reasons could be possible for why she has Loveday as a second name.
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Was Alice Loveday Freeman brought up in workhouse ?
My grandmother was boarded out as a baby her birth mother took the birth father to court in 1900 in local parish she received payment called Affiliation Order for weekly payments.
It probably helped her case to give the man's surname as a middle name for the baby .
Once she.d obtained the settlement she babtised the baby with a different middle name !
DNA of descendants of a mutual grandfather to the baby has proved that she had not lied about paternity !
Good luck with your search
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Bridgidmac. Thank you for that.very interesting.
Ref. Alice Loveday Freeman. No , she was not brought up in a workhouse .....but by her grandparents.
In the 1891 census she is recorded as being with the family as .... Loveday. A Freeman ,.grand daughter.
In the 1901 census she is still with family as Alice Freeman..........daughter !! She was brought up as another daughter rather than grand daughter. We are not sure if Alice ever knew that the person she called her eldest sister...... ..was... Actually her mother ?? I have her birth mothers obituary in which Alice is mentioned as her....sister.
So...did some person in the family have the courage to say to her ... ..hey , did you know that your eldest sister is actually your mother ???
So diid she know ...or didn't she...??
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Just a thought. Alice must have had to produce a birth cert. At sometime , wether when starting work ,passport or other reason ? Though She would probably had a short cert. Which would not have shown her parent / mothers name !?
Hmm......?
I am told , though, that in later years a daughter of Alice always called. Alices birth mother aunty #####
Rather than gran/ granny .
So maybe Alice really didn't know ??
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Just a thought. Alice must have had to produce a birth cert. At sometime , wether when starting work ,passport or other reason ? Though She would probably had a short cert. Which would not have shown her parent / mothers name !?
Why would she?
It wasn't required to start work or for marriage.
Most people didn't have passports until the travel boom of the 1960s.
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KGarrad thanks . Yeah , maybe so ? She like her sisters/ aunts entered domestic service , so wouldn't have thought she would have to produce birth cert. For that.
I did think though that if people Started work in a factory , they had to prove they were over certain age. By producing a birth cert ? Or even For nat ins. Or similar ?
Ref .passports ...true 1960/70s for mass tourism , though she did have family. Overseas , wether she visited them or travelled hereself ?? ...it was just a thought !
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This 'Posting' has re-awakened my search for the 'elusive' father of my Charles Annis Green, born as Annis Marshall Green Brixworth... 1835. (not meaning to butt in on this post :( xxx sorry) Just noting here for me as a marker to have one more go !!
xin
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Xinia thanks. Good for you ! Have a another go . Glad to know my ramblings on... have done some good and given encouragement to somebody.
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Xinia .just noticed you have freeman on your research interests . I wonder where your freemans were from ?
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hello :)
My Elizabeth Freeman 5 gg was born in Leicestershire, (Thringston area maybe) around 1730 and she married John Clarke circa 1752 - they had a daughter Mary and she married John RAVEN who is my 4th great grandfather on my Paternal side. there you go
Xin
;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Xinia thanks ,hope you didn't think I was being too inquisitive . I 've become a little pushy. In regard to FH .
I have missed... SO ..many chances ,by not asking/ acting straight away . Now I tend to ask first apologise later. Very good of you to explain your freeman connection ,thanks .
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you are welcome :)
xin
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I am trying to find out if there was a bastardy order against William Linnell of Whittlebury/Silverstone about 1811, when he fathered a 'baseborn' daughter with Ruth Whitlock. Her daughter used the name 'Rebecca Linnell Whitlock' throughout her life and her US death certificate very helpfully gives her father as 'William Linnell'!!
I've emailed Northants RO, but thought I'd bound the query here in case anyone had come across the case.
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Hi jkgla,
I cant help with a Bastardy Order but may have dound the culprit!
I presume that Ruth never married and appears on 1841/1851 Census?
1841 in Silverstone we have;
William Adler, 25
Elizabeth Adler, 40
Celina Adler, 15
Ruth Whitlock, 55
2 doors away is;
William LINNELL, age 50, Publican, Wife Hannah and several children.
Anc has them as LINNCH
Ruth also christened a WILLIAM Whitlock 23 July 1815 Whittlebury (F/S.Org)
William in 1851;
William Limmer, 59
Hannah Limmer, 59
Mary Ann Limmer, 34
Martha Limmer, 26
James Adam Limmer, 23
Lucretia Wert Limmer, 7
1861 Census
William Linnell, 69 (born 1792 Silverstone)
Hannah Linnell, 69
Thomas Linnell, 41
Lucrcia Linnell, 17
W D Wrighton Linnell, 10
Marriage;
6 March 1817, Whittlebury, Northampton
William LINNELL to Hannah LINNELL
Trish :)
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Ah - you have confirmed my suspicions, and I am fascinated by your lateral thinking re the census returns :)
I actually discovered this link through DNA testing! I am descended from the Whittlebury Linnells via William's father, another William, who married Elizabeth Elliot of Luffield Abbey in 1790. I have several Whitlock DNA matches, but no known Whitlock ancestry, and Ruth Whitlock having an 'out-of-wedlock' child with William Linnell (of whom there were several possible candidates..) seemed the most likely situation. Whittlebury Parish Registers have:
"Rebecca daughter of Ruth Whitlock, baseborn, born 21 Sep 1811, bapt Oct 20 1811"
Rebecca married a William Braggins, and after he died, she joined her eldest son in emigrating to the USA. Her Pennsylvania death cert gives her father as William Linnell, so her paternity was clearly widely known within the family.
Rebecca was born before William married Hannah Adams (who was his cousin, John Linnell's widow)
I wonder who the father of her second child was?!
Many thanks for this clever sleuthing.
Joan
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Hi Joan, sorry I am a bit confused here.
So you are descended from William Linell Snr, William Linnell 1791's Father?
Not through Rebecca, Daug of Ruth Whitlock?
I may be missing something here but I dont understand how you could have Whitlock DNA matches then.
Trish
(it may take me a week to reply as I am going away)
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Trish - No, through Rebecca's family, not Rebecca herself. Rebecca married William Braggins (Silverstone 1833) and the DNA matches are with her descendants.
The only Whitlock is actually Rebecca, the DNA matches are with Braggins - mea culpa for being confusing. I spent a lot of time chasing Whitlock trees during my hunt...
Unless I am quite wrong (not impossible) DNA from Wm Linnell snr (my G3 grandfather) could pass via his son, William jnr to his grandchildren (including Rebecca's children, assuming that she is his daughter) - so there is a direct line from William Linnell snr (1791) (+ Elizabeth Elliot) -> his son, William Linnell jnr (1767)(+Ruth Whitlock) -> his granddaughter, Rebecca Whitlock (1811) (+ William Braggins) -> greatgrandchildren eg Rebecca's son William Marshall Braggins (1845) and his heirs
If this is wrong, then please correct me!
All good wishes, Joan