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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: rainecooper on Monday 11 September 17 00:39 BST (UK)
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I have hit a dead end. My great grandma was Frances Ann Raine born in 1898 in north biddick. She married my great grandad William Cooper born 2nd April 1897 in Gateshead. They married in 1914 and had 2 children William Cooper 1/10/1918 and Edward Raine Cooper in 1921. I have found other possible children but none survived but i can't get a definite answer as to wether they are their children so i would be grateful if anyone could help with that.
Now the biggest mystery is this.... GGrandad William walked out on my Ggran and the two boys in around 1924. My grandad was around 6 and can remember him leaving. After this i can find no trace of Ggrandad at all. I did find a william cooper born 4/4/1897 in gateshead so there is a slight dob change. He was in ww1 and enlisted without giving any details of a wife. He was a deserter and spent time in custody. After his release he changed his name to Carr but kept his dob the same. He went on to enlist in ww2 where he was a pow in Burma. Once he came back home he never married and died in gateshead in 1973. I have contacted one of his relatives who is certain that he could not possibly be my ggrandad and i showed him a photo of my grandad but he is sure there's no resemblance. So i am totally stuck now. I can't find any other William Cooper born in april 1897 in gateshead. I just don't know where to go next. If someone could help with both william b1897 and the possible children i would really appreciate it. Thanks
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"Children William Cooper 1/10/1918 and Edward Raine Cooper in 1921" births registered in the Houghton-le-Spring area. Mother formerly Raine.
William Cooper (1918), Edward Raine Cooper (1921) and mother Frances Ann Cooper (1896) are on Find My Past, 1939 Register in Hetton. You would have to subscribe to get the full details. That would include their address, occupations and birth dates
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I've just seen a tree on Ancestry which I'm guessing could be yours since it states how he walked out on the family. However, attached is a Pension Record and also a Service Record BUT these records are for 2 different people.
The Pension record is for someone born in Gateshead whose mother was Agnes of 7 Walker St., Teany, Gateshead - service no. 4088.
The Service record is for someone born in Chester le Street whose father was William of 17 Grahamsley St., Gateshead in 1919 (census shows his mother was named Margaret).
How do you know his birthdate and where he was actually born? Do you have the marriage certificate confirming his age, address, that his father was named William, and occupation of both of them at that time? Is either of the two records above definitely him?
With such a common name the marriage certificate and information on it is vital to ensure you are following the right man.
Annette
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FreeBMD is showing a possible 6 children?
All born Cooper, Mother's Maiden Name as Raine:
June qtr 1915, Houghton Registration District, Gladys (died 1916)
March qtr 1917, Houghton RD, John (died 1917)
December qtr 1918, Houghton RD, William
March qtr 1921, Houghton RD, Edward R
June qtr 1925, Houghton RD, Alice (died 1925)
September qtr 1926, Houghton RD, Ronald (died 1928)
Jean Raine, born in September qtr 1928, was re-registered as Cooper in 1932 following a marriage between George Cooper and Barbara Raine in 1930!
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Hi Barryd
Thank you for your reply. I do know my grandad william and his brother edward's past really well as we were all close along with ggran frances ann's past which my mam can remember. I will definitely have a look on the site you mentioned though. It was late when i posted lastnight so i'll update the relevant dob's today. Thanks
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Hi Annette7
Thanks for your help. I had help from an ancestry member with some records of Williams and i didn't notice the difference in details.
My mam does have the marriage certificate so i will ask her for it to check and i will have a look at the records too.
Thank you for helping me as i'm still quite new to this x
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Hi KGarrad
Thanks for your reply.
Ronald and Jean are not possibilities as my ggran was seperated in 1924. I was questioning Gladys, John, Alice. Parents William Cooper and Frances Ann Raine so that rules out Jean. Thank you for your help.
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rainecooper - can we please ask that you find out all the exact details that are on the marriage certificate that your Mum has. It is so important in helping us to establish which William Cooper is indeed 'your' man.
As to the births - there is only one early Cooper/Raine marriage and that is William and France's in 1914 so I would say that the Gladys b.1915 and John b.1917 who birth died as infants were their children but the only way to be sure is buy purchasing the birth certificates. As to Alice b.1925 who knows? Only certificates can confirm things. There isn't another way to confirm it.
Annette
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Thanks again Annette7
sorry about not giving you all of the details.
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UPDATED DETAILS
Frances Ann Raine b8/7/1897 North Biddick, Durham, England
1901 living Coxhoe, Cornforth, Durham.
Mother Mary Ann Raine b1873
Father Edward Raine b1872- d1936
Siblings John Raine b1891
Emily b1893
Elizabeth b1902
Mary b1907
William Charlton Rainr b1910 d 1988
North Biddick.
William Cooper
Married Frances Ann in 1914 in Houghton-le-spring, Durham.
Son William b1/10/1918 d23/6/2006
Son Edward Raine b3/1/1921 d?/10/2004
Both known children born and died in Penshaw, Durham.
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I will add William's definite details when i get them.
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According to the army record for the William Cooper born in Chester-le-Street his date of birth was 1/4/1898 and there is a note that his birth certificate has been seen. He appears to be the son of William Cooper and Margaret nee Burns and his birth is recorded June quarter of 1898 in Chester le Street. He has a number of siblings born between 1887 and 1903.
Isobel
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Thank you isobel
that matches the William i have found. I didn't have his mothers maiden name so thanks for that info. From the census he moves from Chester-le-street to Gateshead between 1901 and 1911. If this is the correct William i know he went on to move to Penshaw as he lived there with Frances Ann after they married until 1924 when he left her. I also have found quite a few siblings and i have his grandparents as William H Cooper b1820 in Newcastlr and Isabella A b1826 in Newcastle also along with 7 possibly 8 children born between 1848 & 1869. Their first child has two records
Mary A Whittaker b1848 &
Mary Ann Cooper b1848.
Claire
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If it is this William Cooper then he quite clearly states on two separate Attestation records ( 1915 and 1919) that he is unmarried.
Interestingly you have a child born 1/10/1918 and this William was awol for a few days at the beginning of January 1918 and also took off again on 4th Oct 1918, which was three days after this baby was born, (though he was swiftly recaptured and court-martialled).
Isobel
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I'm fairly sure that the William Cooper who was living in Chester-le- Street in 1901 and Gateshead in 1911 with parents William and Margaret is the same William who was in the Northumberland Fusiliers/Gloucestershire Regiment/Army Service Corp. From his service records his dob ( supposedly confirmed from his birth certificate) is 1/4/1898. This matches with the death record for William Carr in 1973 in Gateshead. William's service records include a small note from his father (also William) which mentions that William jnr has a brother serving in the Durham Light Infantry (D R I). Matthew Cooper ( son of William and Margaret nee Burns born 1887) has service papers online which show he was in the D R I and they also shows his father ( next of kin) living at the same address that is given by William jnr for his father ( next of kin). The other birthdate of 4/4/1898 that you have found appears to come from William's baptism record ( he was baptised on 8/6/1898 at Chester- le-Street) and it is entirely possible an error was made when this was recorded.
Isobel
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Thank you so much Isobell. That all ties in with the information which i found. I hadn't noticed the dates in which he was AWOL but they do seem to confirm that it was around the time of both the conception and birth of my grandad.
The name change from Cooper to Carr was after ww1 and i have had contact with a family member of William Cooper/Carr who explained that it was to "stay under the searchlight" owing to his desertion.
From his memory William returned to Gateshead and lived a solitary life never marrying or having children. I can only assume that he kept his marriage and children as a closely guarded secret from the very beginning. Never making any mention of them to any family members.
I did search the bmd records of the area and although there are a few William Coopers around the area there was only one born in April 1898 in Chester-le-Street. That difference in what day of the month he was born does make sense as a mistake as i can't find another.
I really really appreciate you time and help so much. Thank you.
Claire x
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I still feel concerned as to whether the man born 1/4/1898 Chester le Street who died as William Carr is the right person. You did in fact begin this thread by saying your William was born 2/4/1897 Gateshead.
Did you previously know that when he left his family he became William Carr or has this been concluded from finding the death entry? I find it difficult to accept that when the Chester le Street man re-enlisted in 1919 (per service record) that he claimed to be single hence my doubts that this is 'your' man (this being some 5 years before yours left his family). Don't know what others think or whether I'm alone with these thoughts.
Hence the awaited details from the marriage certificate of your man being so important here.
Do you have the birth certificates of any of the children? If he was in the army then this should show what regiment he was in.
Annette
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Don't know what others think or whether I'm alone with these thoughts.
Hence the awaited details from the marriage certificate of your man being so important here.
No Annette, you're not alone. The William born in Chester-Le-Street may well be the correct person - particularly as there no birth registration for a William Cooper born Apr 1897 in Gateshead (per the details originally given) - but the OP does need to confirm via the marriage certificate that his father's details match up.
If he was born Apr 1898 and married in the Apr-Jun qtr of 1914 then he was only just 16 when he married. His enlistment in April 1915 states his age as 18 yrs & 4 months - it is only later that his DoB is recorded as 1 Apr 1898 'certificate produced'. Perhaps he lied about both his age and marital status in order to enlist? I see he was only 5ft 2in and under 9st. I know he wasn't alone in that, but it really hits home that he was little more than a child himself.
His record shows he went missing for 3 days in Jan 1918 and on 13 Feb 1918 was admitted to the 1/3 Northumbrian Field Ambulance as not yet diagnosed (mental), and then onto what looks like Casualty Clearing Station 62, also NYD M[ental]. Returned to duty under escort 21 Mar 1918 and then gunshot wound to leg (?) a little over a week later?
I'm no expert on reading these records so it's worth asking for help on the WW1 board, but as he seems to have gone awol a few times and then later walked out on his family, I wonder if he was actually suffering from what we would now call PTSD?