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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: hilarykellis on Tuesday 12 September 17 17:10 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am now after 10 years returning to my paternal line, the Ellises, and remembering why I put it off for so long.
In 1845, Thomas Ellis, servant, son of Joseph Ellis, labourer, marries Sarah Edwards, servant, daur of William Edwards, labourer, by Banns, in Wrexham Parish Church, both made an X, and witnesses were John Ellis and Harriet Edwards.
I was able to find a potential baptism for Thomas to Joseph Ellis, a labourer, and Elizabeth in Esclusham Above on 30 Dec 1821. Thomas and his wife lived in Esclusham Above much of his life so this adds up.
It looks like Joseph and Elizabeth also had Mary (1816) and Ann (1819) in Esclusham Above.
I found a marriage for a Joseph Ellis, labourer of this parish, and Elizabeth Ellis, spinster, by Banns in 1812 in Wrexham on FindMyPast, but I am not positive this is the right couple. It does seem to fit the best. Mary Ellis and William Owens witnessed the union.
I am trying to find Joseph in the census to no avail - I am guessing he'd be born 1785-95 but I know the 1841 Wrexham census is missing. As you know, Ellis is an extremely common name in Wales and even in England so I feel hopeless to find and confirm information on Joseph and his wife Elizabeth Ellis! And of course both of them are Ellises!
Any advice?
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Did you get the information that Joseph was a labourer from the marriage certificate of Thomas in 1845 and,if so,is it a reasonable assumption Joseph was not given as deceased?
Again,if so, the GRO death records for Wrexham only have two reasonable candidates for a subsequent death-the first aged 73 in 1864 and the second aged 70 in 1866.
There are possible consistent records for the irst of these as follows:-
If Thomas and Sarah are the couple at Llewenenion in 1851,ref.HO107/2503/705/4,then is there not a reasonable chance Thomas' mother is the Elizabeth(given born 1784) next door with sons John(witness at Thomas wedding?) and William.Her husband appears to be the Joseph,gardener(not inconsistent with labourer?) at Llanerchengog(?)(Llanerchrugog) Hall in 1851,ref HO107/2503/329/38,because they are both together in the 1861 at RG09/4283/3/26 where both are given as born Marchwiel,albeit Elizabeth is "dittoed".
There is a death notice for this Joseph here:-
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4579026/4579034/52/
I think Elizabeth probably died in 1862.
Not definitive,but worth considering.
Regards
Roger
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I'm with you, despair. Although this Joseph shown as gardener in 1851/1861 on the baptism of son John Elles on 24/8/1823 Wrexham (of Esclusham above) Joseph is shown as Labourer.
He may well initially have worked as an all round labourer on the estate and only became specifically a gardener in later years.
Annette
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The transcription for the Joseph Ellis(gardener) in 1851 did not give a place of birth.However the original appears to say Pentre Ifan(?) Ruabon.
Regards
Roger
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Could it be Pentre Bychan, Roger?
Just had a look at the image and it looks like Issa*
* long s
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This thread has it as in Penycae
http://newsfeed.rootsweb.com/th/read/CLWYD/2002-03/1016475838
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Penycae
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Yes,thankyou,Gadget,it looks like Issa(f) with a long "s".Still cant find a relevant baptism,non-con,adult or otherwise for Joseph,circa 1790/1791(calculated from death notice).
Regards
Roger
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Which non-c records did you check? I've got the Blackwell records for Denbighshire.
Gadget
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St Marys, Ruabon - baptisms
7 March 1787 Joseph Ellis, son of Gifford and Jane Ellis of Dynhinlle Issa (buried 15 April 1787, of Hafod)
10 October 1790 Joseph Ellis, son of Gifford and Jane Ellis of Dynhinlle Issa
I can't remember which part of the Ruabon parish the Dynhinlle/Dinhinlles (Issa and Ucha) are. I have a Clwyd FHS map somewhere. I think it's the central part or towards Penycae. Will check.
Gadget
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Map here ~
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ruabon,_Wrexham
Scroll down - it's the SE corner of Rhosmadoc
Gadget
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Location on Modern map:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kpt/
I think it was more a general area than a specific place though.
Gadget
Added - Roger - I note that there's a small village called Pentre Isa not far away.
https://tinyurl.com/y96jmwpu
I know exactly where it is - very steep going down to the River Dee :)
This is different from the larger settlement of Pentre which is to the west and in Chirk parish.
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If this is the correct Joseph then his parents and grandparents can be followed up in Ruabon and Erbistock parishes.
I have all of the Ruabon and some Erbistock transcription booklets from Clwyd FHS but Hillary might want to follow them up herself.
Gadget
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My Blackwell Index is only on disc somewhere,and even if I could locate it,the Apple Mac won't take it!.Have to locate it,fire up an old PC(if I can remember the password) and see if I can transfer it.
Need some input from OP.
Regards
Roger
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I transferred my disk to computer ages ago and it carried acrossfrom backup to new computers very easily. I'll have a look later but the Dininlle Issa one looks very promising - Pentre Isa, where he said he was born on the 1851, is just close by.
Mother was a Jane Morris from Erbistock on marriage entry.
Gadget
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Yes,that one looks very promising.
Regards
Roger
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I do hope it's correct - some of my Parry relatives lived at Cherry Orchard, opposite Pentre Isa across the Dee :)
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Nothing in Blackwell for any of the n-c chapels in the Wrexham area. So it looks as if the Pentre Isa one at Llanerchrugog Hall on the 1851 is the best bet so far.
Gadget
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Can you find baptisms for the John and William Ellis with Elizabeth,adjacent to Thomas in the 1851 census?
Regards
Roger
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Nothing for John. William is down as Grandson to Elizabeth, so who is the Ellis parent? John is too young.
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Annette has previously found a baptism for John:
r. Although this Joseph shown as gardener in 1851/1861 on the baptism of son John Elles on 24/8/1823 Wrexham (of Esclusham above) Joseph is shown as Labourer
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Hello,
Thank you so much all - I had been suspicious that maybe the Joseph, gardener, was my ancestor but all of the evidence you have presented confirms it!
I am so interested in this potential baptism to Gifford (unusual name, how useful!) and Jane - does the register state Gifford's occupation? Am wondering if he also was a gardener of some sort. I see an index entry for Gifford's baptism in 1762 in Ruabon to John and Elizabeth Ellis (alas, could there be more common names??).
I am also still wondering about Elizabeth Ellis, Joseph's wife. Based on the baptism records I can find on FindMyPast, I don't see one possibility that stands out particularly.
I am not sure who William is the son of...I know he was not Thomas's either, too old.
Thank you all so much for all of your help so far! This is so fascinating. I know little about Welsh genealogy, as most of my ancestors have been in England.
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If this is the correct Joseph then his parents and grandparents can be followed up in Ruabon and Erbistock parishes.
I have all of the Ruabon and some Erbistock transcription booklets from Clwyd FHS but Hillary might want to follow them up herself.
Gadget
Gadget, I would be so grateful for any info you find on the Ellises in your transcription booklets!