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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 17:43 BST (UK)

Title: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 17:43 BST (UK)
I'm desperately seeking to find out what happened to my great grandmother (mom's mom's mom), who she was, and any information about my great grandfather father as well.

I have my grandmother's record (attached) stating my grandmother's birth 20 Jul 1911, at St. Michael's hospital in Toronto and name was Edna Daisy Noble (she went by Daisy Edna), and that her parents were Maggie Cameron and Edward Noble married in Scotland 12 Feb 1906.

I know that Maggie had two sons with a man named Smith after my grandmother in 1913 (William) and 1915 (Harold?). By the age of about 7, my grandmother was adopted by Hiram and Sarah Fredenburgh of Pendrith St in Toronto, and the boys grew up in the The Loyal True Blue and Orange Home, and were not re-connected with my grandmother until after the war, when apparently the government offered to connect lost family for those who had none.

William (Uncle Bill) stayed in touch with my Grandmother and died while my mom was pregnant with me. Married to mom's Aunt Rene, I now live in Uncle Bill and Aunt Rene's house!

My grandmother married Harry Swinbourne of Birmingham, and had my mom, Donna and uncle, Michael, and stayed together until her death in Dec 1978.

In the Scotland forum, they've told me that there are no record of marriage between Maggie Cameron and Edward Noble, and I've found no Cameron's or Nobles in my ancestry DNA search. I have done 23&Me DNA as well as Ancestry DNA for myself, mother and father (and cousin on my mom's side!), and have uploaded the info to GEDmatch.

I would appreciate any information on my great-grandparents, and what might be true, not true etc.

Thank you in advance!
Sara Slater
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 14 September 17 18:04 BST (UK)
Hi,

I only see 1 marriage for that year +/- 2 yrs which doesn't fit  :-\

NOBLE ERNEST EDWARD
HENDERSON ANNIE T
1906
466/ 13
Clackmannan

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: *Sandra* on Thursday 14 September 17 18:06 BST (UK)
Names reversed but this is Daisy Edna Fredenburg in 1921 living Toronto North

Hiram J Fredenburg   43 Sarah Fredenburg   43
William H Fredenburg   22 Daisy E Fredenburg 9  Student.

Sandra

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: *Sandra* on Thursday 14 September 17 18:09 BST (UK)
Ancestry tree is showing Edward W Noble born 1886 Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire to Peter and Jane Noble. 1901 census 32 Mid Street 2 Gordon's Court Aberdeenshire.

Peter Noble   61
Jane Noble   59
Francis R M Noble   25
Alice Noble   24
Henry A Noble   21
Edward W Noble   15

Marriage given as 12 February 1906 Fraserburgh Aberdeenshire.

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 18:12 BST (UK)
Thanks! Yes, she went as Daisy Edna, and those are her adoptive parents, which I know about. Looking for information on birth parents Maggie & Edward

Names reversed but this is Daisy Edna Fredenburg in 1921 living Toronto North

Hiram J Fredenburg   43 Sarah Fredenburg   43
William H Fredenburg   22 Daisy E Fredenburg 9  Student.

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 18:14 BST (UK)
Thanks! I've seen the tree(s), but no documentation to actually say that Edward and Maggie actually married other than being in a tree. I believed this was my great grandfather, but no documents or DNA relatives to make it so.

Ancestry tree is showing Edward W Noble born 1886 Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire to Peter and Jane Noble. 1901 census 32 Mid Street 2 Gordon's Court Aberdeenshire.

Peter Noble   61
Jane Noble   59
Francis R M Noble   25
Alice Noble   24
Henry A Noble   21
Edward W Noble   15

Marriage given as 12 February 1906 Fraserburgh Aberdeenshire.

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 18:15 BST (UK)
I'm wondering if they were never married, and that Maggie lied on the birth record?

Hi,

I only see 1 marriage for that year +/- 2 yrs which doesn't fit  :-\

NOBLE ERNEST EDWARD
HENDERSON ANNIE T
1906
466/ 13
Clackmannan

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: *Sandra* on Thursday 14 September 17 18:16 BST (UK)
We have to check all the angles. The posting is for information purposes for those who might join the search so that we do not duplicate each other.

Have you located obituaries for the son William Arthur Smith - 15 December 1913 - Lincoln, Ontario, Canada passed away 19 February 1971 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada ?

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 14 September 17 18:22 BST (UK)
Related thread...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778882.msg6329393

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: *Sandra* on Thursday 14 September 17 18:31 BST (UK)
Thanks Annie  ;) - already wasting our time here going over what has already been found.  ::)

Rosie17 found a death in York Ontario in 1918 that seems to fit - sadly no further info on the death cert - for us to count her in or out  :-\

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 19:07 BST (UK)
My post from yesterday (they referred me to the Canada forum)

Related thread...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778882.msg6329393

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 19:17 BST (UK)
I have not found actual obituary, but I have the book from his funeral.

We have to check all the angles. The posting is for information purposes for those who might join the search so that we do not duplicate each other.

Have you located obituaries for the son William Arthur Smith - 15 December 1913 - Lincoln, Ontario, Canada passed away 19 February 1971 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada ?

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 14 September 17 19:23 BST (UK)
My post from yesterday (they referred me to the Canada forum)

Which would have been fine if you'd posted a link to the info. you already had so people would have known what had already been found & redirected to it.

My 1st post on this thread to you was the only marriage to be found but alas you already had that info. on the other thread to which there was no link i.e. double trouble by looking up info. already searched & found by someone else  ::)

I only noticed because both requests were showing at the same time on the 'Home' page!

Furthermore, you didn't indicate from my post that someone else had found that info. & more either  ???

Annie



Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 14 September 17 19:36 BST (UK)
My post from yesterday (they referred me to the Canada forum)

Which would have been fine if you'd posted a link to the info. you already had so people would have known what had already been found & redirected to it.

My 1st post on this thread to you was the only marriage to be found but alas you already had that info. on the other thread to which there was no link i.e. double trouble by looking up info. already searched & found by someone else  ::)

I only noticed because both requests were showing at the same time on the 'Home' page!

Furthermore, you didn't indicate from my post that someone else had found that info. & more either  ???

Annie

I'm sorry. My first time posting, and did not know. The other thread referred that I should post here, so that's what I did. I did not intend to cause trouble.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: *Sandra* on Thursday 14 September 17 21:52 BST (UK)
Strange that on the 1921 census 104 Pendrith North Toronto - the parents are listed as Hiram and Sarah  J Fredenburg.

Hiram J Fredenburg   43 Sarah Fredenburg   43
William H Fredenburg   22 Daisy E Fredenburg   9

but on the marriage certificate for Daisy they are listed as Edward Fredenburg and Margaret Cameron  ::)

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Friday 15 September 17 03:09 BST (UK)
That part makes total sense because Hiram & Sarah Fredenburgh adopted my grandmother when she was young - age 5-7 years, presumably when Maggie died, but my mom says we don't know for sure that's when she died.

But on the birth record listed as Edward Noble and Maggie Cameron. I'm beginning to think this is a lie though, since it lists their marriage date and there was no such marriage recorded in Scotland (as found by this forum).

Maggie may have also lived on Penrith, and maybe that's how the Fredenburg's came to adopt Daisy.


Strange that on the 1921 census 104 Pendrith North Toronto - the parents are listed as Hiram and Sarah  J Fredenburg.

Hiram J Fredenburg   43 Sarah Fredenburg   43
William H Fredenburg   22 Daisy E Fredenburg   9

but on the marriage certificate for Daisy they are listed as Edward Fredenburg and Margaret Cameron  ::)

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 15 September 17 03:25 BST (UK)
You might want to look through the old Toronto directories to see if Edward/Maggie combination pops up:

http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/history-genealogy/lh-digital-city-directories.jsp
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 15 September 17 07:21 BST (UK)
Not sure if you've seen the burial record that matches the death certificate that Rosie17 posted for Maggie, but it has added info that Henry George Smith purchased the plot, was her nearest living relative, and resided at 391 Clinton (Toronto).

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRY3-HRJ?i=27&cc=1627831

The entry in the 1918 Toronto directory for him states he "is on active service".
The WW1 attestation form for him states wife is Maggie Smith.  Sooner or later, his full service file will be digitized and free to view, but this will be in the future, as it is done in batches, and they are aren't up to S names yet.  (There should be mention of his children in it)  I doubt there will be any great clues as to Maggie, but you never know!

This link will tell you when they hit the Smiths'  https://thediscoverblog.com/category/digitization-2/

Attestation form: http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=237906
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 15 September 17 15:37 BST (UK)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-Y399-QQJG?i=1253&cc=1784216

I had discounted this marriage because they have shown Maggie's father as Angus NOBLE.  Perhaps a mistake although there seems to be a Maggie Noble with parents Angus and Ann in the 1881 Scottish census.  She is 6 so age is different.

William Arthur's obituary might help.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: RunKitty on Friday 15 September 17 15:55 BST (UK)
William Arthur Smith obituary in the Globe and Mail on Feb 20, 1971, page 49.

Says he died at his home on Feb 19.  Husband of Irene Adams, father of D.W., brother of Daisy (Mrs Harry Swinbourne) and Harold Smith.  St. James Crematorium.

RK

(Didn't name son because it sounds like he is still living.  You likely know his name anyway :))
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: RunKitty on Friday 15 September 17 17:39 BST (UK)
Just wondering about Daisy's adoptive brother (couldn't find obits for the adoptive parents - though familysearch has death cert and burial for Hiram John Fredenburg - 1929).  Hoped his obit might mention his adoptive sister... no luck there :'(

William Hiram Fredenburg - died July 16, 1976 in Mississauga.  Husband of Edna Smart.  Father of William Fredenburg and Donald J Fredenburg of Mount Royal, Quebec.  Grandfather of J, A, P and S. Interment Highland Memorial Gardens. 

RK
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Friday 15 September 17 20:02 BST (UK)
Hi RunKitty - thank you for the Obit! I could not find it at all on Globe and Mail.
Sadly William's son David died in his forties, in the 80's from leukaemia. If he was alive, he would live in my house instead of me!

I don't think that my grandmother stayed in touch with either adoptive brother, though she did remain in touch with adoptive mom Sarah Fredenburgh, and my mother knew her. She was in a nursing home in Newmarket, I believe. Sarah didn't like that my grandmother married a foreigner though (from England!), so they were estranged for a bit.

I know the info on my grandma tho, so information from her adoptive brother's on her wouldn't be so helpful. Just about Maggie and whoever was the birth father of my grandmother, Edward Noble or not.

Did you search on the Globe and Mail website to find the obituary?
What is the best way to search for obits?

Thanks!
ss

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 15 September 17 22:09 BST (UK)
I don't know if the following is leading you down the wrong path or not, but I think it's worth looking into.

In Nov. 1909 there is a border crossing (by train) for a Maggie Noble (aged 23, so 2 yrs older than we are looking for).  She is listed as a domestic worker, living in Toronto, born in Nairn, Scotland, with a relative of brother Joseph Noble, at 3 Simpson St, Nairn, and traveling to a Mrs. Lloyd A Woolley at 112 Herkimer (?) St, Buffalo, New York. Passage paid by a Mrs. McDuffy.  However, she was debarred from entering the USA, as she was labelled a criminal.

I tried to find Joseph Noble at 3 Simpson St, Nairn.  In 1901 there was a Margaret Noble (in her 60's) living at that address.  Looking at other people living in the area, and according to Google maps, less than a one minute walk away, at 18 Harbour St. in 1901, is this:

Name:    Angus Noble
Age:    64
Estimated birth year:    abt 1837
Relationship:    Head
Spouse's name :    Annie Noble
Gender:    Male
Where born:    Croy, Invernesshire
Registration Number:    123
Registration district:    Nairn
Civil Parish:    Nairn
Town:    Nairn
County:    Nairnshire
Address:    18 Harbour St
Occupation:    General Labourer
ED:    3
Household schedule number:    2
LINE:    7
Roll:    CSSCT1901_37
Household Members:    
Name    Age
Angus Noble    64
Annie Noble    50
John Noble    23
Margaret Cameron    13  scholar, boarder, born 1888 in Rafford, Elginshire
George McLeod    28
James Free    30
Thomas Connell    59
William Noble    16

If this is Angus Noble and Annie nee Ross, could this be your Maggie Cameron that took on their name??


 

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Friday 15 September 17 22:59 BST (UK)
bbart: This sounds extremely plausible, though I don't know why she'd put "Edward Noble" and a marriage date on my grandmother's birth record, except that she seems unreliable with facts.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: RunKitty on Friday 15 September 17 23:22 BST (UK)
Hi RunKitty - thank you for the Obit! I could not find it at all on Globe and Mail.
Did you search on the Globe and Mail website to find the obituary?............
What is the best way to search for obits?

Thanks!
ss

Hi,

If you are in the Toronto area, you can search both the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail for free, online, using your library card.   I think most libraries in or near Toronto have access to both of these databases.  Sign in to your library site, choose the Star or Globe from the list of databases... once you are in one of them, select "Historical Newspapers databases" at the top of your search bar... and you will be able to search both of these papers at the same time :)

If your library doesn't have access to the Star, it may have access to the Globe (I think that is more widely available).  Worth checking the list of databases.   

I think that An...y has some of the Toronto newspapers in its collection.  I don't know for sure, because I don't have a current subscription. 

There is also the free Ancestry Library edition... available at many libraries (you have to be there in person to access this database)

The Toronto Star has a paid site as well.  Anyone can search here (good if you don't have library or Ancestry access).   I believe their rates are quite reasonable. 
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/search.html

You often have to be very creative with your search terms!!  The more you do it, the more tricks you learn!!

RK
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Saturday 16 September 17 00:35 BST (UK)
Thanks! I absolutely have access to the Toronto Public Library, and use it all the time for books. I did not know about the online searches of newspapers through it. I'll have to look into what ancestry information they have and start researching that way.

I also have an Ancestry subscription, and have found it easy to find relatives on all other great grandparents, except for  Maggie & whoever my grandma's dad is.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 16 September 17 02:20 BST (UK)
Just in case the Margaret Cameron boarding with Angus and Annie turns out to be the right Margaret, Annie was nee Ross, and Annie's mother was a Margaret Ross nee Cameron.  I'm thinking that makes boarding Margaret a niece? Cousin? 
After digging in Scotlandspeople, I found a seemingly well sourced tree showing the above at http://pardoes.info/jandap2016/2037.htm although Angus and Annie had more children than what is shown.
Perhaps Maggie did marry an Edward Noble, but not officially, as they were related somehow?

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 16 September 17 03:11 BST (UK)
bbart...

That's very interesting because my next question (before you posted this) was going to be...

She is listed as a domestic worker, living in Toronto, born in Nairn, Scotland, with a relative of brother Joseph Noble, at 3 Simpson St, Nairn, and traveling to a Mrs. Lloyd A Woolley at 112 Herkimer (?) St, Buffalo, New York. Passage paid by a Mrs. McDuffy.

Has anyone checked out Joseph on any census' to see who the parents are & if they match?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 16 September 17 05:41 BST (UK)
Maggie Cameron from 1901 Scottish census was born Rafford Elginshire (or Moray)
On the 1891 census for Rafford, Moray living at Templestone Cottage is
Jane Cammeron, 20 b. Knockando, Elginshire with daughters
Margaret Cammeron, 3 b. Rafford, and Jane E. 3 months born Rafford.
There is a birth registration on Scotlandspeople for Jane Elizabeth Cameron born 1891 Rafford which would be worth getting
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 16 September 17 06:55 BST (UK)
Cosmac, I got a birth registration for a Margaret Cameron that might match what you just posted:

Margaret Cameron born 23 Aug 1888 in Farnalea, Rafford.
Parents: William Cameron, farm servant  and Jane Cameron MS Stephen
Parents married 20 Jul 1888 Rafford
Informant, father William Cameron residing Parkend, Bullet Loan, Forres

(Google says Bullet Loan was renamed, but I forget what it was renamed to, and I'm too lazy to search again  :D )

If it's the right family, maybe something happened to William, and Jane couldn't keep the girls.  Did the census say what Jane's marital status was?
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: DonM on Saturday 16 September 17 13:49 BST (UK)
Bullet Loan

http://maps.nls.uk/view/74478425 at the very top

Also a current reference https://canmore.org.uk/site/194881/forres-st-leonards-road-general

Haven't read this for a while but will someone be providing a Power Point presentation when this post is completed?

Don


Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 16 September 17 15:00 BST (UK)
Jane on the 1891 census was a groom's wife
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Sunday 17 September 17 06:34 BST (UK)
Thanks for the map links, Don, and thanks for rechecking on Jane for me, Cosmac.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Sunday 17 September 17 14:09 BST (UK)
I'll try to compile all this info into one post, with all the options of who Maggie may be.
I have way more to go on than when I started. Have been working on Maggie not stop for days now!
Thank you all.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Tuesday 19 September 17 03:27 BST (UK)
1 of 2

Hi all,

In case you were still pondering on my Maggie puzzle... I've put together all the facts found by you lovely people as well as what I've found and organized them the best I could.

=====

Maggie
Cameron/Noble Smith
Born 1888, Scotland


Mother of Daisy Edna Swinbourne (nee Noble, Fredenburg). My maternal grandmother.

On Daisy’s birth record shows that Maggie Cameron is her mother and Edward Noble is her father, married in Scotland
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~births/N_Surnames.htm
7502-11 (Toronto) NOBLE, Edna Daisy, f, b. 20 July 1911 at St. Michaels Hospital; father - Edward NOBLE, motorman; mother - Maggie CAMERON; infm - Nellie Lyttle, nurse; parents married - 12 Feb 1906 in Scotland

However, the only Noble/Cameron marriage (which doesn’t fit, so maybe they weren’t really married) in Scotland was:
NOBLE ERNEST EDWARD
HENDERSON ANNIE T
1906
466/ 13
Clackmannan

Daisy was adopted by Hiram John Fredenburg (1878-1929 Ontario) & Sarah Jane Delill (1876-1958) around 1918, and are shown on the Toronto Census:
Hiram J Fredenburg   43 Sarah Fredenburg   43
William H Fredenburg   22 Daisy E Fredenburg 9  Student.

Ancestry tree is showing Edward W Noble born 1886 Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire to Peter and Jane Noble. 1901 census 32 Mid Street 2 Gordon's Court Aberdeenshire.

Peter Noble   61
Jane Noble   59
Francis R M Noble   25
Alice Noble   24
Henry A Noble   21
Edward W Noble   15

Marriage given as 12 February 1906 Fraserburgh Aberdeenshire.

BUT, Edward married an Isabel and lived in Quebec, Canada. They had a daughter named Isabel and they moved back to Fraserburgh so he could enlist in the war, during which he died in 1918.

I’ve recently been in touch with a relation on this particular Edward, and had her DNA done, and if Edward were my we should be 4th cousins and get a match. We don't.

Maggie then married Henry George Smith on 29 June 1912 in Toronto, Ontario, and they had 2 sons, William Arthur in 1913 and Harold in 1915.

On the marriage certificate, Maggie lists her birthplace as Nairn, Scotland, Henry George’s as Glasgow Scotland. Maggie lists her father as Angus Noble, and mother as Annie Ross.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-Y399-QQJG?cc=1784216

=====

In Nov. 1909 there is a border crossing (by train) for a Maggie Noble (aged 23, so 2 yrs older than we are looking for).  She is listed as a domestic worker, living in Toronto, born in Nairn, Scotland, with a relative of brother Joseph Noble, at 3 Simpson St, Nairn, and traveling to a Mrs. Lloyd A Woolley at 112 Herkimer (?) St, Buffalo, New York. Passage paid by a Mrs. McDuffy.  However, she was debarred from entering the USA, as she was labelled a criminal.

=====

searching Joseph Noble at 3 Simpson St, Nairn.  In 1901 there was a Margaret Noble (in her 60's) living at that address.  Looking at other people living in the area, and according to Google maps, less than a one minute walk away, at 18 Harbour St. in 1901, is this:

Name:    Angus Noble
Age:    64
Estimated birth year:    abt 1837
Relationship:    Head
Spouse's name :    Annie Noble
Gender:    Male
Where born:    Croy, Invernesshire
County:    Nairnshire
Address:    18 Harbour St
Occupation:    General Labourer
Household Members:   
Angus Noble    64
Annie Noble    50
John Noble    23
Margaret Cameron    13  scholar, boarder, born 1888 in Rafford, Elginshire
George McLeod    28
James Free    30
Thomas Connell    59
William Noble    16

Annie Ross as found on Scotland’s people
http://pardoes.info/jandap2016/2037.htm

If this is Angus Noble and Annie nee Ross, could this be Maggie Cameron that took on their name??

From the thread and combined with my search, we’ve found:

Margaret Cameron born 23 Aug 1888 in Fernalea, Rafford.
Parents: William Cameron, farm servant  and Jane Cameron MS Stephen
Parents married 20 Jul 1888 Rafford
Informant, father William Cameron residing Parkend, Bullet Loan, Forres
(have document downloaded from Scotland’s People)

Parkend Bulletloan Forres:
Forres, St Leonard's Road, General
Formerly named Bullet Loan, as named on 1st edition 1:2500 Elginshire 1870-76.
(Undated) information in NMRS.

Marriage of parents:
20 Jul 1888 in Fernielea
William Cameron 23y Lockshice(?) Rafford -- Farm Servant
Jane Stephen 17y Fernielea, Rafford -- Domestic Servant
Groom’s parents: George Cameron -- Salmonfisher, Margaret Ross -- Fieldworker
Bride’s parent: Jane Cumming
Witnesses: Charles Edward Taylor, James Cameron, Jane Cumming
(have document downloaded from Scotland’s People -- attached)

=====

could be the same Maggie Noble ..Possibility she is the daughter of Robina Priest Cameron
Robina Priest Cameron born 1863 Elgin illegitimate daughter of Margaret Cameron
Robina Priest Cameron married a David McNeill 1889 Elgin
1891 census in Elgin Moray 8 Murdochs Wynd
Robina McNeil age 28 (sick nurse )
Henry H McNeil age 7
Maggie A McNeil age 4 born 1887 Rafford
George McDonald 9 months ( boarder )
Bella McDonald 5 ( boarder )

I was playing around with this, but the facts weren’t fitting for me.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Tuesday 19 September 17 03:28 BST (UK)
2 of 2

Back in Toronto:

Maggie’s 1st (or 2nd?) husband
Henry George Smith:
BIRTH 5 FEB 1883 • Glasgow, Scotland
DEATH Unknown

Sons (my grandmother’s half-brothers)
William Arthur Smith:
BIRTH 15 DEC 1913 • Merritton, Niagara, Ontario, Canada
DEATH 19 FEB 1971 • Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Harold Smith:
BIRTH 1913 • Ontario, Canada
DEATH Unknown

Henry George Smith’s Attestation Papers show Maggie Smith as his next of kin living at the following addresses:
29 Sept 1916 - 52 Pendrith St, Toronto
1 Dec 1917 - 391 Clinton Ave, Toronto
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=237906

Maggie Smith died of Sepsis in 12 Aug 1918 • Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Burial record shows Henry George to live at 391 Clinton Ave, Toronto
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRY3-HRJ?cc=1627831

Sometime after Maggie’s Death:

Daisy was adopted by Hiram John Fredenburg (1878-1929 Ontario) & Sarah Jane Delill (1876-1958), and are shown on the 1921 Toronto Census at 104 Pendrith St.:
Hiram J Fredenburg   43 Sarah Fredenburg   43
William H Fredenburg   22 Daisy E Fredenburg 9  Student.

William Arthur, and Harold went to live at the Loyal True Blue and Orange Home

(Step)-dad Henry George, then married Sarah Bertha May Smith in Toronto 01 May 1920.

My grandmother Daisy Edna Noble Fredenburg (as stated on marriage certificate) married my grandfather William Harry Swinbourne on 30 March 1934, and she lists her parents as Edward Fredenburg and Margaret Cameron.

Fredenburg is her adoptive name… so I’m not sure why she’d do that.

William Arthur Smith’s Death notice:
The Globe and Mail (1936-Current); Feb 20, 1971 Pg 49
   SMITH, William Arthur
At his home on Friday, February 19, 1971, William Arthur Smith; dearly beloved husband of Irene Adams, dear father of David William, brother of Daisy (Mrs. Harry Swinbourne) and Harold Smith. Friends may call at the Trull Funeral Home, 1111 Danforth Ave. Funeral service on Monday afternoon at 3 o’clock. Cremation, St. James Crematorium.

==========

So now I’m working on finding out if I can connect the Maggie born to William Cameron and Jane Stephen to the Maggie who was staying with Angus Noble and Annie Ross
Annie’s mother being a Cameron, and William Cameron’s mother being a Ross.

Searching for more information on Maggie here in Toronto, in hopes of finding the father of my grandmother.

Watching this link to see when his full service files are available for the Smiths:
https://thediscoverblog.com/category/digitization-2/

The “Scotland’s People” has been cool. I’ve bought two documents so far.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 05:09 BST (UK)
Possibles...

CUMMING JANE
1871
139/ 17
Knockando

STEPHEN JANE
1872
135/ 11
Elgin

CUMMING JANE
1871
141/ 35
Rothes

STEPHEN JAMES
CUMMING JANE
1873
139/ 5
Knockando

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 19 September 17 14:42 BST (UK)


=====

could be the same Maggie Noble ..Possibility she is the daughter of Robina Priest Cameron
Robina Priest Cameron born 1863 Elgin illegitimate daughter of Margaret Cameron
Robina Priest Cameron married a David McNeill 1889 Elgin
1891 census in Elgin Moray 8 Murdochs Wynd
Robina McNeil age 28 (sick nurse )
Henry H McNeil age 7
Maggie A McNeil age 4 born 1887 Rafford
George McDonald 9 months ( boarder )
Bella McDonald 5 ( boarder )

I was playing around with this, but the facts weren’t fitting for me



Found this family on the 1901 census in Drainie Moray ( cattlemans house )
Under a different name this time as Falconer ..
Robina Falconer 41
Maggie Priest Falconer age 14
Birth for this Maggie Ann Priest 12/3/1887 Rafford (illegitimate )

So think we can rule this one out  ???

Did you check on the 1921 Census in Canada
Address 110.St Clarens Avenue Toronto Parkdale
Henry Smith age 38 born Scotland ( fitter)
Sarah Smith age 28 born Scotland
Harold Smith age 4 Born 1917 Ontario

Have not been able to find births for William and Harold to see what name the mother has used maybe see what information you can get from the orphanage
Rosie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 16:28 BST (UK)
did u check the 1892 death of Jane Cameron in Rafford
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Tuesday 19 September 17 18:03 BST (UK)
Thanks all!

When you mention someone, for example:
CUMMING JANE
1871
139/ 17
Knockando

What does the third line down (139/ 17) mean?

I will continue to check the Toronto Census to see what I can find. Weird that Henry George would re-marry (Sarah) and have a Harold who is two years younger than his other son, Harold?  Or perhaps they are the same Harold and the dates are just a bit askew?

Here's the death record for Jane Cameron in 1892, Rafford from Scotland's People? But how did you know she died then? I think I better learn some more searching techniques on Scotland's People. Is that the best place to search for this information?

Thanks!
Sara


Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: *Sandra* on Tuesday 19 September 17 18:12 BST (UK)

139/17 is the reference for that record.

Sandra
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 18:13 BST (UK)
For death possibility I just entered her name and a date range up to 1901 and her maiden name and the Rafford possibility was one of the choices.  Added.  this was at Scotlandspeople
1901 census for Urguhart & Logie Wester a possibility for Jane Elizabeth as
Jessie Cameron, 9 born Rafford, Moray boarding in family of
Alexander Fraser 63, Hugh Fraser 21, Kenneth Fraser 16, Donald Fraser 7, Robert Fraser 5, all born somewhere in Inverness-shire and also present servant Christine Cameron 41 also born Inverness.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 19 September 17 18:48 BST (UK)
Looks like the Margaret Cameron daughter of William Cameron and Jane Stephen died 23August 1892 Rafford age 4 ...Check out Moray Local Heritage www.libindex.moray.gov.uk

Rosie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Tuesday 19 September 17 18:59 BST (UK)
ohhhhh noooo... So not her at all.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 19 September 17 19:14 BST (UK)
Quote
However, the only Noble/Cameron marriage (which doesn’t fit, so maybe they weren’t really married) in Scotland was:
NOBLE ERNEST EDWARD
HENDERSON ANNIE T
1906
466/ 13
Clackmannan

I took a look at this just to make sure there wasn't an indexing error for the brides name, but you can definitely rule this one out. The marriage was indeed to an Annie, and took place 19 Nov 1906.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 19:43 BST (UK)
Still think your Maggie is related to the Nobles in Nairn just wrong parents.

Try this
1891 Angus and Ann Noble are living at 10 Simpson street
At #9 there is a Mary Ann Cameron, 24, born Nairn, a cook and living with her is her niece
Margaret Cameron, 1 born Chapelton Moss, Moray.
Haven't checked any further.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 19:56 BST (UK)
I think I better learn some more searching techniques on Scotland's People. Is that the best place to search for this information?

Unfortunately yes (the only place) for original BMD certs. & census records but very low cost.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 20:03 BST (UK)
1891 Angus and Ann Noble are living at 10 Simpson street
At #9 there is a Mary Ann Cameron, 24, born Nairn, a cook and living with her is her niece
Margaret Cameron, 1 born Chapelton Moss, Moray.
Haven't checked any further.

The only one 1887 - 1890...

CAMERON MARGARET
1889
137/ 123
Forres (Reg. Dist. of where Chapelton Moss is)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 20:33 BST (UK)
Hugh Cameron married Mary Fraser 28 Dec 1855 Nairn
1861 census in Nairn at 10 Simpson Street is Hugh born Inverness-shire with Mary, sons James, Alexander and Hugh and mother-in-law Mary Fraser
1871 census at 11 Simpson Street, Hugh 36, born Inverness-shire, carter is with wife Mary 35 born Inverness-shire and children born in Nairn
James 14, Alexander 12, Hugh 10, Henry 7, Mary Ann 5,
A family tree shows that James died in 1891 in Nairn.  Perhaps Maggie is the daughter of one of the Cameron boys
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 20:40 BST (UK)
I downloaded the birth...daughter of Alexander!

Annie

Added....Posted images further down as they were too big to upload in one go.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 19 September 17 20:42 BST (UK)
Hugh and Mary also had a daughter Elizabeth (Lizzie), born around 1871, so probably just after the census.  This is from my notes when I was scouring the Simpson St,.Harbour St area, so I must have seen an 1881 census.  Will check.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 20:54 BST (UK)
Alexander and mother??
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 19 September 17 21:11 BST (UK)
Still think your Maggie is related to the Nobles in Nairn just wrong parents.

Yes I would definitely say there are  related just trying to find the right birth for Maggie Cameron /Noble  ???

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 21:17 BST (UK)
Apologies, attachments were too big so now doing 2 posts.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 21:27 BST (UK)
RCE - For above in 2 portions (2 posts) as I don't know how to make it smaller without losing the writing  ::)..

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 21:29 BST (UK)
RCE...2nd portion...

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 21:40 BST (UK)
I guess now we need to either locate Margaret Cant with Margaret (Cameron/Cant) or a death for Margaret Cant as there's still no evidence of who our Margaret really is  :-\

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 21:54 BST (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01krb/ 

Perhaps the birth of Hugh Camerons's wife, Mary Fraser, with a connection to the Noble name
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 21:56 BST (UK)
 :-\  ???...

CANT MARGARET
FALCONER JOHN
1895
140/ 4
Rafford

Annie

Added...Need to find them in 1901 to see who's in the abode  ;)
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 22:10 BST (UK)
Not finding any young deaths for a Margaret Cant/Falconer in Moray or Nairn areas.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 19 September 17 22:12 BST (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01krb/ 

Perhaps the birth of Hugh Camerons's wife, Mary Fraser, with a connection to the Noble name

Good thinking, but I just snagged Mary's death cert. and her mother was a McDonald.

Mary Cameron married to Hugh Cameron, stone quarrier, died 18 Feb 1881, 14 Caledonian St Nairn, age 44, father Alexander Fraser, carter, deceased, mother Mary Fraser, MS McDonald, cause of death pneumonia 21 days, witness Hugh Cameron

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 22:23 BST (UK)
and it looked so promising
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 19 September 17 22:25 BST (UK)
and it looked so promising

Yeah, sorry about that  :-[

That area is so thick with Nobles, they have to be related somehow.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 23:03 BST (UK)
I wonder if the connection is through Annie (wife of Angus Noble)?

Does anyone know what her maiden name was?

I personally don't think 'Edward' Noble exists although the surname 'Noble' does seem to have some sort of connection  ???

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 23:10 BST (UK)
Ahh...got it now, just scrolled back as I was sure I'd seen it somewhere!

Just in case the Margaret Cameron boarding with Angus and Annie turns out to be the right Margaret, Annie was nee Ross, and Annie's mother was a Margaret Ross nee Cameron.  I'm thinking that makes boarding Margaret a niece? Cousin? 
After digging in Scotlandspeople, I found a seemingly well sourced tree showing the above at http://pardoes.info/jandap2016/2037.htm although Angus and Annie had more children than what is shown.
Perhaps Maggie did marry an Edward Noble, but not officially, as they were related somehow?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 September 17 23:39 BST (UK)
"Peter Noble   61
Jane Noble   59
Francis R M Noble   25
Alice Noble   24
Henry A Noble   21
Edward W Noble   15

BUT, Edward married an Isabel and lived in Quebec, Canada. They had a daughter named Isabel and they moved back to Fraserburgh so he could enlist in the war, during which he died in 1918"

When & where did Edward W Noble marry?

You would think if that Edward was the 'husband' why was his middle initial not included?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Tuesday 19 September 17 23:41 BST (UK)
In 1891 Nairn there is a Margaret Cant, servant, 24, born Edinkillie Moray (born 1867).

In 1881 Rafford there is a Margaret Cant born Forres Moray, 1867 working as a dairymaid.

Birth of a Margaret Cant 21 May 1866 Edinkillie, Moray to Margaret Cant (no father so most likely illegitimate)

Don't see her past 1891 so far.  Perhaps this is the mother of Margaret Cameron.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Tuesday 19 September 17 23:49 BST (UK)
Sorry, not following... we don't think our Maggie is the one born of Margaret Cant now? Even though on Simpson St? Or still possible?

I had been working on the Noble tree to try and make a connection, and although it does have the Cameron's in Annie Ross's side, I have not got a Margaret or Maggie yet:
https://www.ancestry.ca/family-tree/tree/115452461/family?cfpid=310142366588
(not sure if you can see that?)

I don't believe Edward W is the relation. He married Isabel in Quebec, Canada. I also found a relative of his who had DNA done and she was not a match with my mother, cousin or I.  I feel like Maggie made up a dad...
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 19 September 17 23:55 BST (UK)
Uh oh.
I was looking for the Mary Ann Cameron in Nairn that was raising the Maggie (Cosmac posted the 1891 census for this).
There is a Mary Ann Cameron, Nairn, that married a Peter Fraser also in 1891, and in the 1901 census for them it looks like Maggie was still with them, as a Fraser, which means she wasn't the one with Ann and Angus?  Gah! This is all so confusing.

Peter Fraser    40
Mary Ann Fraser    33
Maggie Fraser    13
Hugh Fraser    9
James Alexander Fraser    7
Mary Jane Jessie Fraser    5
Elizabeth Fraser    3
Martha Johnstone Fraser    2
Christina McRae Fraser    1 Mo


Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:00 BST (UK)
In 1891 Nairn there is a Margaret Cant, servant, 24, born Edinkillie Moray (born 1867).

In 1881 Rafford there is a Margaret Cant born Forres Moray, 1867 working as a dairymaid.

Birth of a Margaret Cant 21 May 1866 Edinkillie, Moray to Margaret Cant (no father so most likely illegitimate)

Don't see her past 1891 so far.  Perhaps this is the mother of Margaret Cameron.

I think this is her as well, and there is a possibility that she is the Margaret Cant that married George Henry Antcliffe in 1892 way down in Nottingham.  1911 census:

Name:    Margaret Antliff
Age in 1911:    44
Estimated birth year:    abt 1867
Relation to Head:    Wife
Gender:    Female
Birth Place:    Forres, Marayshire
Civil Parish:    Caunton
County/Island:    Nottinghamshire
Country:    England
Street address:    Caunton Nr Newark Notts
Marital Status:    Married
Registration district:    Southwell
Registration District Number:    431
Sub-registration district:    Kneesall
ED, institution, or vessel:    11
Piece:    20708
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:07 BST (UK)
Birth of a Margaret Cant 21 May 1866 Edinkillie, Moray to Margaret Cant (no father so most likely illegitimate)

Don't see her past 1891 so far.  Perhaps this is the mother of Margaret Cameron.

I think this is the one I thought married John Falconer in 1895?...Reply #58

I haven't located them both in 1901 nor a death for Margaret.

In Scotland a married woman is recorded under both her maiden & marital surname on death but I couldn't find a death by inputting both surnames  ???

Sara, maybe Maggie quite fancied Edward & on being asked for details for the birth of Edna Daisy decided to use his name  :-\

Annie

Added...Just seen BB's post on alert but will leave as is for reference.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:15 BST (UK)
I think this is her as well, and there is a possibility that she is the Margaret Cant that married George Henry Antcliffe in 1892 way down in Nottingham.  1911 census:

Name:    Margaret Antliff
Age in 1911:    44
Estimated birth year:    abt 1867
Relation to Head:    Wife
Gender:    Female
Birth Place:    Forres, Marayshire
Civil Parish:    Caunton
County/Island:    Nottinghamshire
Country:    England
Street address:    Caunton Nr Newark Notts
Marital Status:    Married
Registration district:    Southwell
Registration District Number:    431
Sub-registration district:    Kneesall
ED, institution, or vessel:    11
Piece:    20708

Have you located them in 1901 to see who's at home with them?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:25 BST (UK)
No daughters with Margaret and husband George Henry in 1901. 
I think the Margaret Cant that married John Falconer was born in 1871 and daughter of Alexander Cant and Jane Riach.
I thought that perhaps Margaret Cant born 1867 had daughter with Alexander Cameron and then let the Cameron side of the family take over her care.  Which could be true if Maggie Fraser was Maggie Cameron at birth but it muddies the picture about the Maggie Cameron with the Noble family in 1901.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:26 BST (UK)
Annie:

1901 census

Name    George Henry Antliff
Age    35
Estimated Birth Year    abt 1866
Relation to Head    Head
Gender    Male
Spouse    Margaret Antliff
Birth Place    Caunton, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil parish    Caunton
Search Photos    Caunton, Nottinghamshire, England
Ecclesiastical parish    Caunton St Andrew
Town    Caunton
County/Island    Nottinghamshire
Country    England
Registration district    Southwell
Sub-registration district    Kneesall
ED, institution, or vessel    9
Piece    3194
Folio    97
Page number    2
Household schedule number    11
Household Members    
Name    Age
George Henry Antliff    35
Margaret Antliff    34  (birth just says Scotland)
Charles Edward Antliff    6
Jessie Antliff    4
Alexander Antliff    3
James Anthony Antliff    7/12
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:39 BST (UK)
No daughters with Margaret and husband George Henry in 1901

Thanks (incl. BB)...that helps the process/progress doesn't it  :D

I think the Margaret Cant that married John Falconer was born in 1871 and daughter of Alexander Cant and Jane Riach.

That's an eliminator 

I thought that perhaps Margaret Cant born 1867 had daughter with Alexander Cameron and then let the Cameron side of the family take over her care.

That seems the likely scenario.   

Which could be true if Maggie Fraser was Maggie Cameron at birth but it muddies the picture about the Maggie Cameron with the Noble family in 1901.

I'm a bit confused on this one  :-\ Kind of lost track on 1901 scenario i.e. can you please do a recap  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:46 BST (UK)
The 1901 census for the Maggie Camerson with Angus and Ann says Maggie was born in Rafford, Elginshire, which matches that of the Margaret Ann, daughter of Robina Priest Cameron that (and I forget why) didn't match.
http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/people/people_report_view.asp?REF_ID=NM284748

This is sooo confusing.  Taking a short break before my brain explodes!

(I still think the right Maggie is the daughter of Alexander).
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 00:49 BST (UK)
Oops, sorry Annie, meant to add this for you:

Harbour St intersects with Simpson St

1901
Name:    Margaret Cameron
Age:    13
Estimated birth year:    abt 1888
Relationship:    Boarder
Gender:    Female
Where born:    Rafford, Elginshire
Registration Number:    123
Registration district:    Nairn
Civil Parish:    Nairn
Town:    Nairn
County:    Nairnshire
Address:    18 Harbour St
Occupation:    Scholar
ED:    3
Household schedule number:    2
LINE:    10
Roll:    CSSCT1901_37
Household Members:    
Name    Age
Angus Noble    64
Annie Noble    50
John Noble    23
Margaret Cameron    13
George McLeod    28
James Free    30
Thomas Connell    59
William Noble    16
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 01:26 BST (UK)
1891 Angus and Ann Noble are living at 10 Simpson street
At #9 there is a Mary Ann Cameron, 24, born Nairn, a cook and living with her is her niece
Margaret Cameron, 1 born Chapelton Moss, Moray.

Looking at everything...

Mary Ann Cameron would be the sister of Alexander Cameron (who we think) is the father of our Margaret Cameron.

Mother of Margaret (who we think is Margaret Cant) ends up in England marrying.

Not sure yet where Alexander is but it would seem normal a man working & sister helping out.

Living next door to the Nobles, probably very close whether or not related, wee Maggie somehow ends up with them probably when Mary Ann marries?

I think Margaret Cant is the likely mother  ???

Edit...The birth with Margaret Cant & Alexander Cameron gives specifically 'Chapelton Moss' as PoB.

Annie



 
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Wednesday 20 September 17 01:48 BST (UK)
I would check the 1911 Scottish census to see if Peter and Mary Ann Fraser have a Margaret Fraser still living with them.  I think it was suggested that Alexander's daughter continued to live with Mary Ann but took the Fraser name after Mary Ann's marriage to Peter.  There is a Maggie/Margaret Fraser with them in 1901 showing a birth in Nairn.  It has happened before where people are enumerated in two different households - one they are normally residing in and one they are temporarily visiting.  Interesting to know if Maggie Fraser is still in Scotland in 1911.

Border crossing for Maggie Noble shows she arrived March 1909 at port of St. John on the Empress of Ireland.  She departed from Liverpool, ticket 92221, age 20, departure date 26/02/1909 on Empress of Ireland.  This link gives the passenger list for the March 1909 arrival of the Empress of Ireland.  It's being finicky
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/passenger-lists/passenger-lists-1865-1922/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=14597&

A point to remember is the border crossing document gave her brother, Joseph Noble, of 9 Simpson Street, Nairn as her closest relative in Scotland.  Can't disregard the Simpson Street connection.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 02:05 BST (UK)
2 good points Cosmac...Is Maggie still in Scotland at either household actually & thinking the same, possibly enumerated at both in previous census'?

I did ask early on if anyone had checked out Joseph (which I forgot about).

Have you found Joseph on a passenger list to see when he left Scotland?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 02:07 BST (UK)
Joseph is like Edward.... invisible.  :'(
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Wednesday 20 September 17 02:10 BST (UK)
Perhaps she meant John.
I couldn't find a Joseph for Angus and Ann.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 02:18 BST (UK)
Joseph is like Edward.... invisible.  :'(

I did wonder as I couldn't find a Joseph Noble in the right area 1891 onwards, they are all Fraserburgh or "Shipping- Merchant Navy" which may have answered why he came to be in Canada   :-\

Is there anything on John for a circa DoB & PoB?

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 02:55 BST (UK)
 ???  ::)  ??? Just checking the 1911 index & came across this.....

FRASER CAMERON 26 135/ 1/ 3 Elgin Moray
Edit...(FEMALE)  :-\ (A bit too old by 4 yrs but seems a strange name for a female unless this could be Maggie/Margaret known by both  ???

How convenient  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 02:58 BST (UK)
Is there anything on John for a circa DoB & PoB?

1891 census says John was born 1879 in Morayshire.  Younger brother William born Nairnshire 1886.

Maybe one or the other has a middle name of Joseph or Edward, but that would be too easy, and nothing about this family is easy!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 03:29 BST (UK)
The SP index is actually a pain because you can't input the PoB, you can only input a name & what shows on the index is where the census was taken not where a person was born  ::)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 03:37 BST (UK)
No Maggie/Margaret NOBLE in Elgin 1911

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 03:53 BST (UK)
FRASER CAMERON 26 135/ 1/ 3 Elgin Moray
Edit...(FEMALE)  :-\ (A bit too old by 4 yrs but seems a strange name for a female unless this could be Maggie/Margaret known by both  ???

Just checked image...def. not her!

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 04:15 BST (UK)
I'm losing track of what has been found, so apologies if this has been stated:

1901 census

The potential father, Alexander Cameron, is boarding with a John and Margaret McEwan, at 16 Caledonian St.  (his father Hugh Cameron, raised his kids at first floor of 14 Caledonia St).  Alex is a bricklayer, single, age 40, born Nairn.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 04:22 BST (UK)
Join the club  ;)

I don't think that's been posted BB or if it has I've missed it.

What are the ages of the McEwans?

I need to head off for now.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 04:32 BST (UK)
It will take me a bit to find which of the zillion tabs I have open for the McEwans.

Will have found it by the time you check back in, Annie!  Have a good break!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 04:44 BST (UK)
1901

John    McEwen    Head    Married    Male    69    1832    Store Keeper Coalyard    Ardersier, Invernessshire, Scotland    

Margaret    McEwen    Wife    Married    Female    64    1837    -    Dyke, Elgin or Moray, Scotland    

Alexander    Cameron    Boarder    Single    Male    40    1861    Bricklayer    Nairn, Nairnshire, Scotland
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 20 September 17 05:37 BST (UK)
Sara, is there any way you can get to Prospect Cemetery (1450 St Clair Ave W,) ?

IF Maggie Smith has a headstone, and IF her birth date is on it (it's not on her death cert. or burial record) we can tell for sure if she was the daughter of Alexander Cameron and Margaret Cant. Otherwise, we are just going in circles.

The cemetery office will need the info from here in order to guide you to the grave (plot number is on the image) :
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2767-9QJ
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Wednesday 20 September 17 13:09 BST (UK)
I can! It's on my list of things I'd like to do.

Probably not until the weekend though.

Thanks for the tip on the grave plot #

Sara, is there any way you can get to Prospect Cemetery (1450 St Clair Ave W,) ?

IF Maggie Smith has a headstone, and IF her birth date is on it (it's not on her death cert. or burial record) we can tell for sure if she was the daughter of Alexander Cameron and Margaret Cant. Otherwise, we are just going in circles.

The cemetery office will need the info from here in order to guide you to the grave (plot number is on the image) :
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2767-9QJ
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Wednesday 20 September 17 13:13 BST (UK)
I'll have to try and compile all this into another Google Doc for myself to make sense of it all.
 8)
Thanks for discovering things about my Maggie.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 13:31 BST (UK)
1901

John    McEwen    Head    Married    Male    69    1832    Store Keeper Coalyard    Ardersier, Invernessshire, Scotland    
Margaret    McEwen    Wife    Married    Female    64    1837    -    Dyke, Elgin or Moray, Scotland    
Alexander    Cameron    Boarder    Single    Male    40    1861    Bricklayer    Nairn, Nairnshire, Scotland

Thinking aloud but...

I'm sure it has been mentioned that Margaret Cant (mother of Maggie) was also illegitimate?

I wonder if Margaret McEwen in 1901 is her mother although I haven't found a marriage yet nor have I checked ages etc. i.e. just posting for ref. meanwhile as I have to go out soon but maybe someone can do the arithmetics for a possible  ;)

I just thought maybe with Alexander being there could it be more than just coincidence?

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 20 September 17 14:12 BST (UK)
Back to the surname Fraser just incase for ref...

Death

CANT MARGARET
86
1922
107/1 11
Urquhart (Inverness)

FRASER MARGARET
86
1922
107/1 11
Urquhart (Inverness)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 00:53 BST (UK)
Scrolling through the birth records book that Daisy appeared in, it appears most babies were still being born at home, so the house address is on the registration.  We have no address other than the name of the hospital.  I looked up the Dr F Fenton that attended her birth, and it turns out he was a high up officer in the Ontario Medical Society, as head for Obstetrics and Diseases of Woman.
(Source: http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/5/24/canadianjournalo32torouoft/canadianjournalo32torouoft.pdf  Page 47 (55/614) )

How in the world could Maggie afford him?

Sara, can you look for a birth announcement in the Toronto Papers?  I think RunKitty told you how to access them via your library card.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 03:03 BST (UK)
Yes, I'll do this. Interesting discovery!

Scrolling through the birth records book that Daisy appeared in, it appears most babies were still being born at home, so the house address is on the registration.  We have no address other than the name of the hospital.  I looked up the Dr F Fenton that attended her birth, and it turns out he was a high up officer in the Ontario Medical Society, as head for Obstetrics and Diseases of Woman.
(Source: http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/5/24/canadianjournalo32torouoft/canadianjournalo32torouoft.pdf  Page 47 (55/614) )

How in the world could Maggie afford him?

Sara, can you look for a birth announcement in the Toronto Papers?  I think RunKitty told you how to access them via your library card.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 03:22 BST (UK)
Meanwhile...

I can't find Angus Noble & Annie in 1911 (likely have died although I haven't checked) & I can't find Peter & Mary Ann Fraser or any of her family in Scotland.

1901

14 Caledonian Street, Nairn

Peter Fraser 40
Mary Ann Fraser 33   
Maggie Fraser 13 (Now listed as Dau)!
Hugh Fraser 9   
James Alexander Fraser 7   
Mary Jane Jessie Fraser 5   
Elizabeth Fraser 3   
Martha Johnstone Fraser 2   
Christina McRae Fraser 1 Mo   

I wonder if the family moved South or elsewhere (abroad)?

I haven't checked English census'

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 03:26 BST (UK)
I also trawled on here to no avail...

http://www.oddquine.co.uk/gravestones/index.htm

This family are all very mysterious  ::)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 03:52 BST (UK)
I'm going from memory here, but Angus died before 1911.... I think it was  1908.

He was NOT a good man; I found him in the old newspapers several times, being given a choice of hefty fine or jail time. At least twice for severely breaking the peace, and the last time (I think 1906?) he beat his wife badly.  His address was given, so I know it was him.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 04:03 BST (UK)
I have not been able to find birth record for Daisy on Globe & Mail or Toronto Star.
This is only my second time searching it, but I *think* I'm doing it right... I did find her death notice.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 04:32 BST (UK)
Daughter of Mary Ann I think?

British Columbia, Canada, Marriage Index, 1872-1935
   
Christina Mcrae Fraser married Charles Alexander Laing

16 Nov 1921 Vancouver
REG. No. 1921-09-234910
BCA No. B12906
GSU No. 2032869

Anie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 04:40 BST (UK)
Daughter of Mary Ann I think?

Sadly, no.
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/d29eed59-09ca-4460-b818-a78ce13936f9

I keep looking at Dr Fenton's 1911 census with Scottish maid Maggie Robertson.  We still haven't found Maggie on the 1911.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 04:50 BST (UK)
Is there any way that I can search using my mom's DNA matches?
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 04:52 BST (UK)
You beat me to it BB...

I checked familysearch, pity  :(

I need to check 1911 again as I couldn't find them!

I think this is Peter's death;

FRASER PETER
80
1939
123/ 13
Nairn

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 04:54 BST (UK)
Is there any way that I can search using my mom's DNA matches?

I don't know much on DNA but I believe this to be what's usually recommended;

GEDmatch
https://www.gedmatch.com/

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 05:07 BST (UK)
1911 - Not where I was looking;

FRASER PETER
1911
52
122/ 3/ 3
Cawdor
Nairn

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 05:16 BST (UK)
Just for ref. incase I lose it.

This one is the wrong age but Edit (was getting mixed up again) interesting she's in the same area so going to check the index to see if I can find who she's with.

NOBLE MARGARET
1911
19
122/ 1/ 3
Cawdor
Nairn

Annie

Added...She's with Evan 60 & Jessie 58 (aka Hugh & Janet)  CAMERON

I wonder  ???...I think a good possibility it's the same Maggie & I'm curious as to what the relationship is down as?

Aagghh...Just read your post Sara so not THEE Maggie!

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 05:22 BST (UK)
When searching the DNA links, if you click on the tree (if they have that shared), it shows you where their family tree members are born, and in the area, I'm finding a lot of Cants.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 05:25 BST (UK)
Maggie was in Canada by 1909 and had my grandmother in 1911.

Just for ref. incase I lose it.

This one is the wrong age but interesting she's in the same area so going to check the index to see if I can find who she's with.

NOBLE MARGARET
1911
19
122/ 1/ 3
Cawdor
Nairn

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 05:36 BST (UK)
Sara, does the DNA matching with the Cants mean that your DNA is matching people who have Cants in a family tree (as in, we have to hope they have accurate trees?)
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 05:38 BST (UK)
yes, exactly.... I'd need more. But it seems one close DNA match's father has Cant in his name.

I'm exploring anyhow, I've found no Camerons...

Sara, does the DNA matching with the Cants mean that your DNA is matching people who have Cants in a family tree (as in, we have to hope they have accurate trees?)
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 05:40 BST (UK)
I have edited  Reply #109

I'm beginning to wonder if 'OUR' Maggie has maybe borrowed someone else's identity along the way?

Good you're getting 'CANT' connections & maybe not too far away from finding the truth  ;)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 05:45 BST (UK)
Sara,

Had to scrub that as I see you have no CAMERON matches  :o

Mmm...one does wonder for now about that peculiarity.

Does it depend on the type of DNA test you've done as to what connections you get i.e. maternal or paternal or both?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 05:50 BST (UK)
I'm beginning to wonder if 'OUR' Maggie has maybe borrowed someone else's identity along the way?

We think she arrived in Canada 1909, because there is a close fit match under the Noble name. It really is like she assumed being a Noble, yet once here, no census or directory match at all.  And that attempted border crossing where she was turned back as labelled a criminal.... did she do something wrong and  change her name? Or did she get tired of having the surname Cant plus Cameron plus Fraser, and just decide to go with the more stable family of Angus and Ann Noble.  Gah!

If we manage to solve this, we are all meeting up for a glass  bottle case of wine.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Thursday 21 September 17 06:00 BST (UK)
Perhaps going to Ontario Archives and look at the birth registrations for the stepbrothers to see if she used Cameron or Noble as surname.  Not sure where that would lead but checking another box
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 06:00 BST (UK)

Had to scrub that as I see you have no CAMERON matches  :o

Mmm...one does wonder for now about that peculiarity.

Like, Alexander was innocent after all?? :-[
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 06:01 BST (UK)
Count me in BB  ;D

It's definitely an intriguing one for sure!

I have gone back to the 1901 McEwans...

I couldn't find Margaret with that surname so looked for him 1st to find out where he died as that surname wasn't popular in/around those areas...

MCEWAN JOHN
77
1902
144/2 12
Garmouth

CANT MARJORY
95
1929
144/2 6
Garmouth

Parents James Norval & Isabella Stewart BUT she was married to James CANT i.e. a possible relation maybe although not what I was aiming at?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 06:04 BST (UK)

Had to scrub that as I see you have no CAMERON matches  :o

Mmm...one does wonder for now about that peculiarity.

Like, Alexander was innocent after all?? :-[

Exactly what I'm thinking  ;D

How exciting is this...one conundrum after another  ???

Sara, what other SURNAMES from the area do you have matches with  ???

I think I need an overdraft for SP Credits as this is addictive  ::)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 06:14 BST (UK)
The Margaret Cant that we believe is Maggie Cameron's mother was raised by her grandparents, with Grandpa being Alexander Cant, born around 1809 in Rafford, Elgin or Moray, Scotland, according to the 1871 census, the house name is Chapelton Moss (haven't we seen that before?)

*points to the Alexander on the DNA chart, and looks hopeful.*
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 06:28 BST (UK)
bb,

What's the name & m/s of Alexander's wife?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 06:31 BST (UK)
Don't have a m/s for the wife, but notice the double surname for the grandson Alexander:

1871
Alexander    Cant    Head    Married    Male    62    1809    Saw Miller    Rafford, Elgin or Moray, Scotland    

Margaret    Cant    Wife    Married    Female    60    1811    -    Morayshire, Scotland    

Alexander    Cant Gordon    Grand Son    Unmarried    Male    10    1861    Scholar    Forres, Morayshire, Scotland    

Margaret    Cant    Grand Daughter    Unmarried    Female    4    1867    -    -    

Charles    Kerr    Grand Son    Unmarried    Male    1    1870    -    Forres, Morayshire, Scotland

House number    3
House name    Chapelton Moss
Street    -
Parish    Forres
Town    -
City    -
County    Moray
Country    Scotland
Registration district    Forres
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 06:40 BST (UK)
Chapelton Moss; http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2818391

A 2 x g g/dau of Maggie's mum; http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/mccants/142/

I saw a few Gordons on the grave link I posted earlier.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 06:43 BST (UK)
Good find.  You get an extra glass of wine.

A possible m/s for Margaret Cant Senior is Gray:

First name(s)    Alexander
Last name    Cant
Marriage year    1839
Marriage date    28 Jun 1839
Marriage place    Forres,Moray,Scotland
Spouse's first name(s)    Margaret
Spouse's last name    Gray
Place    Forres
County    Morayshire
Country    Scotland
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Thursday 21 September 17 06:49 BST (UK)
Mary Ann Cameron on the 1891 census with her niece Margaret Cameron born Chapelton Moss.
Good catch BB
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 06:55 BST (UK)
1 for the 'possible' file;

CANT ALEXANDER
MARGARET GRAY
28/06/1839
137/40 350
Forres

Annie

Sorry, didn't get an alert this time.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 06:56 BST (UK)
Mary Ann Cameron on the 1891 census with her niece Margaret Cameron born Chapelton Moss.

Thanks for finding it!  Too many posts to wade through! (I'm making excuses for a bad memory)

Speaking of too many posts:
Sara, don't miss Cosmac's post about the step brothers birth certs.  Annie and I got on a roll posting, and you might have missed it.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 07:11 BST (UK)
Margaret Gray/Cant (when the time comes)  ;)

Death

GRAY MARGARET
86
1896
137/ 59
Forres

CANT MARGARET
86
1896
137/ 59
Forres

Annie

Added...Hopefully whoever registered the death knew her parents names & mother's m/s as that will be on the DC too if they knew that info.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Thursday 21 September 17 07:13 BST (UK)
Automated genealogy is a good site for misspellings of names in the 1911 Canadian census and easy to search.  There was an entry for a Maggie Cameron (not spelt that way) in a Toronto jail.  It might be worth while looking at that site.  There are a number of Maggie/Margarets lodging under Noble and Cameron - the fact that their birth place might be shown as Ontario doesn't necessarily mean they weren't born in another country - mistakes filling out forms took place all the time.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 07:27 BST (UK)
Wow, great catch, Cosmac.  Even with matching their spelling, Anc. doesn't show it.

Note to Sara:  check the newspapers for a crime involving a Maggie Cammeron!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 07:34 BST (UK)
Oh. She put a birthdate of Oct 1888.  Gah!

Edit:  found the image at http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002026486.pdf

I think it actually says 1889 for birth year.  And she is Scottish.  Getting closer!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 13:57 BST (UK)
I was in touch with a few people from Ancestry, and simply asked them if they had ancestors coming from Birmingham (to rule them out as Maggie's relatives, as all my grandfathers relatives are from Birmingham), or North-East Scotland.

I've heard back from one person who replied:
My great grandparents came from Scotland. Their names are James and Elisabeth Cant

I've asked her for more details on what she might know about the Cants, as she doesn't have a tree on Ancestry.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 14:03 BST (UK)
Annie - I have my mom and dad's tests, so it separates out maternal and paternal.

I could have Cameron matches. I just haven't found any yet. Cant has come up a few times though.


Sara,

Had to scrub that as I see you have no CAMERON matches  :o

Mmm...one does wonder for now about that peculiarity.

Does it depend on the type of DNA test you've done as to what connections you get i.e. maternal or paternal or both?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 14:19 BST (UK)
a birthdate of Oct 1888.

Edit:  found the image at http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002026486.pdf

I think it actually says 1889 for birth year.  And she is Scottish.  Getting closer!

Oohhh...Yes, looks like 1889 although OUR Maggie was born 2 Sep 1889 i.e. close enough!

Sara...

You have a connection with Larkspur (RCer)…
“Alexander Cant was the son of Alexander Cant b 1808 Todholes d 1880 Chapelton Moss and wife Margaret Gray”
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=252806.0

https://www.francisfrith.com/caunton/gilberts-row_memory-177111
(With a facility to send a message to the poster)!

“my great-grandparents were living at Gilberts Row on the 1911 census. I was hoping someone out there knew where it was. I have a photo of them outside the cottage. My great-grandfather was born in the village as were my grandfather and father. My great-grandfather was a chimney sweep and wore a patch over one eye, his name George Henry Antliff….”

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: DonM on Thursday 21 September 17 14:41 BST (UK)
Hmmm...the 1911 Census doesn't say she is a Scot just that she is of Scottish ancestry. Sure the enumerator may have made a mistake by noting she was born in Ontario then again maybe he didn't.

This Maggie may in fact been the one born Aug 1888 in York to Kenneth/Matilda Bennet.  Btw one of the witnesses of her birth was C.J. Noble, MD.

Don
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 21 September 17 15:02 BST (UK)
I had to work, and then was out last night, and now work again.
Work sure gets in the way of ancestry!
Still getting through all the posts.

Will message these connections!
Thank you!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 15:29 BST (UK)
In your own time Sara....they're a long time dead  ;D

Yes, work has a lot to answer for  ???

I think the MacEwan surname my be more relevant than I 1st thought...

One for the 'potential' folder...

http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/people/people_report_view.asp?REF_ID=NM045994

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 15:33 BST (UK)
Hmmm...the 1911 Census doesn't say she is a Scot just that she is of Scottish ancestry. Sure the enumerator may have made a mistake by noting she was born in Ontario then again maybe he didn't.

Don...

Are we looking at the same doc?

I thought it said she was Scotch?

http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002026486.pdf

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 16:05 BST (UK)
An online tree with Margaret (Snr) & husband Roderick Munro...

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01krj/

You will get DNA links with the children from that marriage (half siblings to Maggie) i.e. worth a look.

Not helping to find her as a definite in 1911  :-\

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 17:29 BST (UK)
Marriages Jun 1892
   
Antliff George Henry
Cant Margaret       
Southwell Vol 7b    Pg 678

Postem added...

"AKA Antcliffe
Married Caunton.
22 May 1892
George Henry Antliff- father William
Margaret Cant- father Alexander.
Alexander Cant was Margarets Grandfather, she was illigitimate, born in Morayshire Scotland"


Death...

ANTCLIFFE MARGARET 64
GRO Ref. 1930, D Quarter, SOUTHWELL, Vol 07B Pg 485 

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 19:37 BST (UK)
I don't even know what to make of this.  Have we been following the wrong Maggie, but it still led us to the right Maggie (ie the one born to Margaret Cant)?

From 20 August 1907 - Aberdeen Press and Journal - Aberdeen

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 20:09 BST (UK)
bb... don't you think we're confused enough for now  :-\  ;D

If you check back a few posts, I found a Maggie Noble still in the area on the 1911 Index.

I'm so curious as to her relationship to the 'Head' who was Hugh Cameron Reply #109

Pity there's no name/sex given for the child to see where that would lead?

Annie

Added...When I saw she had similar birth year I wondered if it was her identity OUR Maggie was using when it suited  :-\
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 20:17 BST (UK)
Luckily this seems the only birth in Nairn 1907 with surname Noble...

NOBLE MAGGIE ANN
1907
123/ 52
Nairn

Annie

Added...Aww, poor wee girl has died  :'(

NOBLE MAGGIE ANN
0
1907
123/ 78
Nairn
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 20:17 BST (UK)
Scotlandspeople has only one child , surname Noble, born in Nairn 1907.  She is a Maggie Ann Noble.
She also died 1907  :-\

Angus and Ann Ross did have a daughter Margaret born 1875ish.

What I'm wondering is, the Margaret Noble on the ship list/border crossing, is the one in the article, which inadvertently led us to finding the Cameron/Cant Maggie.  Or is it the same person??

We could make a movie out of the lives of these people.

Edit: Annie types faster than I do.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: DonM on Thursday 21 September 17 20:25 BST (UK)
Annie

Look at the headings in the Census the under place/country of birth follow it down.

Don

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 20:44 BST (UK)
Angus and Ann Ross did have a daughter Margaret born 1875ish.

What I'm wondering is, the Margaret Noble on the ship list/border crossing, is the one in the article, which inadvertently led us to finding the Cameron/Cant Maggie.  Or is it the same person??

We could make a movie out of the lives of these people.

Same question really (in a different way), who is the Maggie Noble in the household of the Camerons in 1911...talk about musical chairs, they don't stay long enough in 1 place to keep track of who is who & who belongs to who  ???

All we know is 'a' Maggie Cameron or Noble or both  :-\ arrived in Canada, 1 of those girls married.
We know everything about before & after now to conclude the middle & it's not an easy task  ::)

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 21:13 BST (UK)
Angus and Ann Ross did have a daughter Margaret born 1875ish.

What I'm wondering is, the Margaret Noble on the ship list/border crossing, is the one in the article, which inadvertently led us to finding the Cameron/Cant Maggie.  Or is it the same person??

Same question really (in a different way), who is the Maggie Noble in the household of the Camerons in 1911

I've now viewed that 1911 entry.

That Maggie Noble is not in the household of the Camerons (which I think may be a different couple with same names) but only on the same sheet  ::)

1911

Cotterton Budgate, Cawdor, Nairn

Roderick Noble 53 Wid
John 22 Son
William 16 Son
Margaret 19 Dau
Catherine m 14 Dau

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 21:30 BST (UK)
bb,

The Maggie's are 2 separate girls, I have the BC for OUR Maggie CAMERON & does someone not have the birth for Maggie NOBLE?

OUR Maggie CAMERON seems to be using the surname NOBLE at times but which is who?

Which one is on the ship, which one is in Jail, did one or both go to Canada  ???

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Thursday 21 September 17 21:46 BST (UK)
The 1911 Scottish census for Cawdor, Nairn
At 18 Piperhill is
Peter Fraser, 52, cattleman with wife
Mary Ann Fraser 44 married 20 years - 7 children 7 living
Hugh 18, James, 17, Elizabeth 14, Martha 12, Kate 10 and two Fraser grandchildren
Willie 5 and Lily 2
No Maggie/Margaret in household.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 22:10 BST (UK)
cosmac,

It seems the only time Maggie had the Fraser surname was on the census while with her aunt Mary Ann.

Not sure if she used Fraser in Canada & not sure if that possibility has been checked?


Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Thursday 21 September 17 22:24 BST (UK)
Trying to pin down the Margaret Fraser in the 1901 census with Peter and Mary Ann.  Is she still in Scotland in 1911 - did she marry there.  Trying to rule her in or out.  On the 1891 Mary Ann had a Margaret Cameron with her.  There are a few Margaret/Maggie Frasers the right age in Nairnshire in 1911 that Saraslater might try buying the records for
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 22:41 BST (UK)
Does anyone know when (year) Margaret/Maggie Noble daughter of Angus Noble & Annie Ross was born?

I'm losing track fast  ;)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Thursday 21 September 17 22:46 BST (UK)
Cosmac - the Margaret with Mary Ann is her niece, daughter of Margaret Cant as per the 1891 census,  We think in the 1901, she has just put Fraser as the last name.

Annie -  The Margaret born to Angus and Ann was born around 1875 per the 1881 census.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 22:47 BST (UK)
Trying to pin down the Margaret Fraser in the 1901 census with Peter and Mary Ann.  Is she still in Scotland in 1911 - did she marry there.  Trying to rule her in or out.  On the 1891 Mary Ann had a Margaret Cameron with her.  There are a few Margaret/Maggie Frasers the right age in Nairnshire in 1911 that Saraslater might try buying the records for

I still think Maggie/Margaret Cameron/Fraser are the same person? Niece on 1891 & dau on 1901.

Maggie/Margaret Cameron, Fraser & Noble all seem to disappear after 1901.

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Thursday 21 September 17 23:02 BST (UK)
I realize that Margaret Cameron in 1891 is Mary Ann's niece and assume that the one in 1901 as Margaret Fraser is the same Margaret taking the Fraser surname because she is in that household.
If we can find her on the 1911 Scottish census or a Scottish marriage in the early 1900s that could eliminate her as the Maggie Noble/Cameron in Canada.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 21 September 17 23:12 BST (UK)
If I'm following...

Maggie Noble was born 1875 & OUR Maggie Cameron 1890 that's a big age difference 15 yrs.

Maggie Noble was aged 24 when she married in 1912 (b1888) which would rule out the NOBLES' daughter who would have been 37.

On 1911 Canadian census Maggie Cammeron was born 1889 & likely ours giving her birthplace as Canada so she wouldn't be deported maybe  ???

I can't work out why Maggie Cameron would use the surname Noble & give the Nobles as her parents when she married though as her biological aunt Mary Ann would have seemed an obvious choice?

Annie

Added...So far there's no NOBLE or CAMERON link in the DNA as yet making it even more confusing :-\  ;D
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 22 September 17 00:58 BST (UK)
Something else which I forgot about was...

When Edna Daisy Noble was born in 1911 her mother was Maggie Cameron & father Edward Noble.

Maggie & Edward were supposedly married 1906 in Fraserburgh.

Apart from the fact there is no marriage with those names +\- 2 yrs anywhere in Scotland, Fraserburgh is miles away from Elgin & Nairn where OUR Maggie seems to be from.

http://www.britishdistance.com/distance/3570281-3571549

Why would she mention a place so far away from her usual home?

I had a search for anything which may stand out, out of curiosity & nothing doing.

I thought her choice of baby's name was very unusual given the part of the world she lived but a closer look, could the Edna be some reference to Edward whether married or not?

Has there been no Passenger list found with any of those names which may help.


Annie





Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 22 September 17 02:01 BST (UK)

Maggie & Edward were supposedly married 1906 in Fraserburgh.

I'm not sure where you saw the Fraserburgh connection. ???  Daisy's birth cert. just states Scotland for place of marriage.

Do you know something I missed, or did you dip into our case of celebration wine already?
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 04:46 BST (UK)
Fraserburgh was talked about with an incorrect Edward Noble.

From the owner of an ancestry tree that I messaged today.  She follows the line of Elizabeth Fraser d/o Peter Fraser and Mary Ann Cameron.
 

 Hello. As far as I know Maggie Fraser was Peter Fraser's illegimate daughter. When he married Mary Ann Cameron the mother of Maggie gave her to them. This is the story my mother heard. Maggie then went on to have 2 illegitimate children, Lily and Wullock Fraser (could have been different fathers). Not sure what happened to Maggie but she gave both her children (Lily and Wullock ) to Mary Ann and Peter to raise. Mary Ann had numerous of her own children then took in these kids. Good woman. Lily was raised as a younger sister to my grandmother and Lily emigrated to Canada in the 1950 s. She had no children and died in Vancouver in 1970s. This is what I know.

If this is the Maggie Cameron/Noble that emigrated to Canada another illegitimate child might not be out of the question.   I had looked for Lily Fraser after the 1911 census information and saw a death in BC  but it had no information on parents - just born Scotland.  An employer was the informant.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 05:24 BST (UK)
Scotlandspeople has birth for Lilly Fraser and William MacLean Fraser.  Wonder what the maiden name of mother was.

http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/7ee3982d-4ecf-4053-ad40-71646c7e607b
Death for Lily
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 22 September 17 05:50 BST (UK)
Well done, Cosmac!  That solves what we thought was a double entry for Maggie Cameron in the 1901 census. 
So, Maggie Cant/Cameron could have been with Angus and Ann Noble for most of her life then, with Alexander paying her board, and she thought of them as her parents.  Maybe she always used the surname Noble.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 05:56 BST (UK)
The birth of Lily on her death registration was Feb 19, 1909 and the sailing on the Empress of Ireland from Liverpool was Feb 26, 1909.  Is that plausible.  Unless Lily has a different birthdate on Scotlands People records.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 06:49 BST (UK)
Bought Lily's birth registered at Nairn.  There also seems to be one registered at Cawdor.
I will attach it tomorrow.  Even though I resized it it keeps timing out.
Info is
Lilly Fraser, illegitimate, Feb 19, 1909 Union poorhouse Parish of Nairn
No father listed, Mother Maggie Fraser general domestic servant - looks like she worked in Cawdor parish for Meikle Geddes (? ),  Informant was Maggie Fraser, mother and birth registered March 10, Nairn.
Puts the February 26th sailing questionable?
Are there poor house records?
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 07:05 BST (UK)
http://www.morayandnairnfhs.co.uk/pdfs/1911NUP.pdf

Maggie not at Nairn poorhouse in 1911
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 22 September 17 07:16 BST (UK)
If I am following your line of thought correctly, you are trying to see if the Margaret Fraser can be the one to go to Toronto, and I don't think so.  The Fraser one would have never have been a Cameron, nor would consider Angus and Ann Noble her parents.
What makes sense to me is in the 1901 census, Maggie Cameron is living with her aunt Mary Ann. The following year, Aunt gets married to Peter Fraser, and brings his own daughter Margaret.  At some point soon after, Margaret Cameron gets moved over to the Nobles, while Peter and Mary Ann raise his and their own children.
Margaret Cameron, being raised by the Nobles assumes their name, considers them parents, even though she knows she is a Cameron.

Before I forget, ages ago you posted that finicky passenger list.  I finally got the url for the image for Maggie.... http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?id=e003624131&op=img&app=passengerlist  She is about 4 names down.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 22 September 17 07:18 BST (UK)
 A maybe for Lily in 1891

Ann    Campbell    Head    Widow    Female    60    1831    Pauper    Nairn, Nairnshire, Scotland    

Isabella    Campbell    Sister    Unmarried    Female    70    1821    Pauper    Nairnshire, Scotland    

Margaret    Fraser    Boarder    -    Female    3    1888    -    Nairnshire, Scotland

House name    Brackenhaugh Cottage
Street    -
Town    -
Parish    Auldearn
City    -
County    Nairn
Registration district    Auldearn
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: larkspur on Friday 22 September 17 11:26 BST (UK)
My family tree here.....
George Henry Antliff and Margaret Cant (MC) were my great grandparents.
I had no idea about Margaret Cant born 1889, so will have to check that out. But I can give some background as to why I think it is possible MC was the mother...
Alexander Cant b 1808 and Margaret Gray 1810 married 1839 in Forres. They had 7 children. One being Mary who went on to have 6 children all without being married to any of the fathers. Some of these children lived with their fathers and Mary seems to have had nothing further to do with their upbringing.
Another daughter Margaret b 1849 gave birth to my great grandmother Margaret Cant b 1866 in Edinkillie. She went on to marry Roderick Munro in 1868 and her parents , Alexander and Margaret, raised their grandaughter. When MC married George Henry  Alexander was named as her father on the marriage certificate.

Now MC following family tradition was "a bit of a lass" She gave birth to a daughter Mary Cant 10 Apr 1886 in Chapelton Moss. This Mary went on to have 3 illegitimate daughters of her own before she married, and had a further 2 legitimate daughters.
MC was in Albert St Nairn on the 1891 census. She married my Gt grandad 22 May 1892 in Caunton Notts. On 25 Sep 1892 she was giving birth to a son James Cant Antliff in Chapelton Moss. Her mother registered the baby and stated that although her daughter was married the husband was not the father of the child. James sadly died a few weeks later.
George Henry and MC went on to have 6 children.

There seems to be some debate on the birth year of "Maggie". This may be the deciding point. My MC only has a possibility of a few years for "Maggie" to be hers.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 22 September 17 13:04 BST (UK)
Fraserburgh was talked about with an incorrect Edward Noble.

From the owner of an ancestry tree that I messaged today.  She follows the line of Elizabeth Fraser d/o Peter Fraser and Mary Ann Cameron.
 
Thanks Cosmac...I couldn't remember exactly what the connection was.

As far as I know Maggie Fraser was Peter Fraser's illegimate daughter. When he married Mary Ann Cameron the mother of Maggie gave her to them.

Thanks for that too as that explains why she's gone from niece 1891 to dau 1901 & the change of surname!

I am learning so much from this thread & one is never assume anything which I/we already know but we do tend to (without thinking) where there (looks to be sufficient evidence) & the Maggie Cameron/Fraser scenario is a 'classic' example!
Both have same forename, same circa birth yr, born same area, living same area etc. all pointing to one person (with a relative), with what we thought, an understandable 'assumption' on relationship of niece/dau & change of surname to fit a kind of adoption into the household...
A good lesson in my view.

The other, in all the 20 + yrs I have been doing Scottish genealogy, these illegitimate births are the 1st I've come across which are not indexed under the mother's surname although it may be unique to that area which I haven't any connection with so far?
All the illegitimate births I have so far have always been indexed with the mother's surname & only included both parents surnames on the index where the father was present at registration even if there's a RCE attached with the naming of the father...
Another good lesson in my view.

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 22 September 17 13:30 BST (UK)
http://www.morayandnairnfhs.co.uk/pdfs/1911NUP.pdf

Maggie not at Nairn poorhouse in 1911

I wonder what the surname of her mother was if this is the birth?

FRASER MARGARET 1890 121/ 19 Auldearn

If I am following your line of thought correctly, you are trying to see if the Margaret Fraser can be the one to go to Toronto, and I don't think so.  The Fraser one would have never have been a Cameron, nor would consider Angus and Ann Noble her parents.
What makes sense to me is in the 1901 census, Maggie Cameron is living with her aunt Mary Ann. The following year, Aunt gets married to Peter Fraser, and brings his own daughter Margaret.  At some point soon after, Margaret Cameron gets moved over to the Nobles, while Peter and Mary Ann raise his and their own children.
Margaret Cameron, being raised by the Nobles assumes their name, considers them parents, even though she knows she is a Cameron.

Without trying to put obstacles in the way...

"The Fraser one would have never have been a Cameron"

Sorry bb I am disagreeing on the Fraser/Cameron possibility because we don't know what her mother's surname was & I'm not assuming anything else on this lot   ;D

Her mother may have been a Cameron or Noble  :-\

Annie



Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: larkspur on Friday 22 September 17 14:25 BST (UK)
Margaret Cant b 1866 Edinkillie-- Just to outline her history.
1871 -No3 Chapelton Moss, Forres Landward. With grandparents Alexander Cant and Margaret MS Gray, listed as Marjory aged 4.
1881-Broomhill Rafford aged 14 dairymaid to Elspet Stewart.
1891 - 32 Albert St Nairn aged 24 domestic servant to Agnes Gibson Bulkeley.
1901 - Caunton Notts aged 34 with husband George Henry Antliff and children.
1911 - Gilberts Row, Caunton Notts aged 44
Birth 21 May 1866 Ardoch, Edinkillie, Moray
Marriage 22 May 1892 St Andrews Church Caunton Notts.
Died 13 Oct 1930 Caunton.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 15:22 BST (UK)
Birth registration for Maggie Fraser's daughter Lily.  Registration at Nairn - there also appears to be one at Cawdor.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 15:32 BST (UK)
There is no definite proof that Peter Fraser had an illegitimate daughter Maggie - only the child was given to the family.  It could have been given to Mary Ann as her blood relation.  That is what I wanted to prove/disprove.  Was the 1891 Maggie Cameron with Mary Ann the Maggie Fraser with her in 1901.  Maggie Cameron tracks better to the 1901 census with the Noble family as place of birth coincides better.  Maggie Fraser's place of birth is given as Nairn - although that is tracking with the rest of the household.  It seems that Mary Ann was willing to take in grandchildren in later years it was hard for me to reconcile her giving another one away.
The birth registration of Lily seems to indicate that Maggie Fraser was the one to register it which means she couldn't make the 1909 Empress of Ireland sailing to Canada.
Would love the original poster to obtain the birth record for Maggie Fraser - illegitimate daughter of Peter or find Maggie Fraser on the 1911 Scottish census. 
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 15:49 BST (UK)
Looking at the 1891 Scottish census for Maggie's born 1888 Nairn that didn't have mothers or fathers attached to them.
Margaret Barron with grandparents Alexander and Christina Barron although possible mothers exist in the household Eliza or Margaret  In 1901 she might be with a Laird family.
Margaret W. Mann with her grandfather Hugh Mann In 1901 there is a Mary Mann doctors wife with a daughter Margaret and son Hugh so perhaps she is accounted for.
Margaret Fraser born Nairn but living in Auldean with two elderly Campbell sisters Ann and Isabella both shown as paupers.  In 1901 the only choice seems to be Peter and Mary's house.
Just in case birth of Maggie Fraser was not registered under father's name
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 22 September 17 18:00 BST (UK)
Back in post 22, I posted about the Canadian train passenger list where Maggie Noble gave her nearest relative as brother Joseph Noble at 3 Simpson St, Nairn.

After finding the newspaper article about Maggie Noble's poor baby Maggie Ann residing at 5 Simpson St, I went back and double checked Joseph's address, and it is also 5 Simpson St.

I'm thinking that perhaps this Maggie Noble is Margaret Cameron.  I did get the birth/death regs for baby Maggie, but they shed no light.  They just say Maggie Noble for mother.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: polarbear on Friday 22 September 17 20:47 BST (UK)
I have been following this thread with great interest, although I seem to lose the plot occasionally  ;D.

I would like to add that the Maggie Noble with brother Joseph back in Scotland was travelling with a daughter Victoria age 1 month. Victoria's paperwork also gives Joseph (uncle) as a contact. She, of course, was also debarred.

I can't find any other sign of Victoria at the moment.

PB
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 22 September 17 21:08 BST (UK)
Wow. Great find!  We lose the plot occasionally as well, so no worries there!

As you say, no other records for her....  no birth, no death, very typical of this whole family!

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 22:11 BST (UK)
Lloyd Allen Wooley and wife Laura Wells the couple Maggie Noble is destined to in Buffalo are on the 1910, 1920 census.  Both are born New York state with parents born New York state.  Family tree shows no Scottish connections
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Friday 22 September 17 22:35 BST (UK)
In tiny print on either the manifest or the card (both for the border crossing), it says that Maggie was going to the Woolley's (passage paid by Laura's sister, Ida MacDuffie) for employment as a wet nurse. I just saw that, even though I've spent a zillion hours this week looking for some connection.  ::)
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Friday 22 September 17 22:55 BST (UK)
Ida was on the census with the family in 1910 I think and the Woolley's had an infant, Clark in 1910

I am going to agree with Bbart that Mary Ann Cameron handed over her niece into the care of the Nobles - perhaps after she received the surprise of Maggie Fraser to care for shortly after her marriage.  The dates and places of birth fit for Maggie Cameron to have grown up in the Noble household leaving for Canada in 1909.  Edward could have been the father of Daisy - just not the real surname.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 22 September 17 23:56 BST (UK)
Lilly Fraser, illegitimate, Feb 19, 1909 Union poorhouse Parish of Nairn
No father listed, Mother Maggie Fraser general domestic servant - looks like she worked in Cawdor parish for Meikle Geddes (? ),  Informant was Maggie Fraser, mother and birth registered March 10, Nairn.
Mother was 'Domicile - Meikle Geddes'...place name of where she was living at the time.

Puts the February 26th sailing questionable?
Agree with that which adds more weight to there likely being only 1 Maggie in Canada using 2 surnames.

Cosmac, Did you notice if there was a 'RCE' attached with the birth?
I can't remember what words they use now but it would be in red above the image? If there's one, it would name the father.

Are there poor house records?
Yes but not online sadly.
Birth registration for Maggie Fraser's daughter Lily.  Registration at Nairn - there also appears to be one at Cawdor.
As Maggie was 'Domicile' in Cawdor it's likely the birth was registered in both parishes (I'm sure I have come across this before although I don't understand the reasoning)?

"There is no definite proof that Peter Fraser had an illegitimate daughter Maggie"

Possibles for Margaret Fraser but of course she could have gone anywhere/married anywhere such as heading south with Margaret Cant & not knowing her mother's surname at the moment doesn't help searching for a death but the mother could also have been a Fraser  :-\

FRASER MARGARET
MCGREGOR JAMES 1907    123/ 1 Nairn

FRASER MARGARET
MACKAY ALEXANDER 1909    123/ 14 Nairn

"I would like to add that the Maggie Noble with brother Joseph back in Scotland was travelling with a daughter Victoria age 1 month"

That's very interesting PB as there's no births in those areas for 1908/1909 (incase the '1' was for yr rather than mnth) with name Victoria or indeed anywhere in Scotland with surname Noble or Cameron  ???

However, this one caught my eye...no prizes for guessing why  :P

NORTON DAISY VICTORIA 1909    573/1 2109 Paisley

More mystery & more questions  ;D

Annie

Added...Marriage for the above Victoria
NORTON DAISY VICTORIA
MONAGHAN CHARLES 1936 Stirling




Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 00:12 BST (UK)
There was nothing else with Lily's birth that would indicate a father.  No RCE or anything in red
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 00:18 BST (UK)
Posting the 1911 Census for Peter Fraser and Mary Ann (nee Cameron).  Will send link to the tree owner from ancestry that provided information on Maggie Fraser.  If she doesn't have the 1911 census she can access it from here.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 00:57 BST (UK)
Scotlandspeople has birth for Lilly Fraser and William MacLean Fraser.  Wonder what the maiden name of mother was.

http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/7ee3982d-4ecf-4053-ad40-71646c7e607b

If the father isn't named on the BC & there's no RCE then a marriage may name the father or a death even but I can't see a marriage or death.

The middle name MacLean would be a good clue to the father's surname.

Mother's maiden name looks to me to be Fraser (assuming)  :P the usual/normal way an illegitimate birth would/should be recorded.

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: polarbear on Saturday 23 September 17 01:12 BST (UK)
The large paper border crossing record relating to little Victoria appears to clearly state she is 1 month old. It also states she was born in Toronto.

The small card also indicates she was born in Toronto but at the bottom of the card it says she arrived St John on 05 Mar 1909 on the Empress of Ireland. This ship arrival is the same in Maggie's paperwork.

It's a bit difficult to reconcile a March arrival with a birth probably in October or so, so I suspect the ocean arrival perhaps doesn't pertain to the baby? There is no ocean arrival recorded on the large paper record for Victoria.

PB
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 01:31 BST (UK)
The large paper border crossing record relating to little Victoria appears to clearly state she is 1 month old. It also states she was born in Toronto.

The small card also indicates she was born in Toronto but at the bottom of the card it says she arrived St John on 05 Mar 1909 on the Empress of Ireland. This ship arrival is the same in Maggie's paperwork.

It's a bit difficult to reconcile a March arrival with a birth probably in October or so, so I suspect the ocean arrival perhaps doesn't pertain to the baby?

I wasn't aware of Victoria's PoB as your post was the 1st I'd seen mention of her.

Could that be their way of putting things that Maggie was 'with child' when she arrived (a bit of a stretch) but...  :-\

If only Victoria would show face now  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 01:54 BST (UK)
I think the ocean arrival just pertains to the mother, as (if I remember correctly) it says to refer to the mother's card in the same area of the card.

I figure Maggie was a month or two pregnant when she boarded the ship. (Ship left late Feb, arrived early March).

The fact they were debarred just boggles my mind.  How on earth did the USA border guards even know, unless something occurred on the train, or just before she boarded it, so the station could call ahead?  (Note to Sara: check the Toronto newspapers in Nov 1909 for a crazy lady and a baby causing some kind of commotion!)
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 02:18 BST (UK)
I think the ocean arrival just pertains to the mother, as (if I remember correctly) it says to refer to the mother's card in the same area of the card.

The fact they were debarred just boggles my mind.  How on earth did the USA border guards even know, unless something occurred on the train, or just before she boarded it, so the station could call ahead? 

More boggling is the fact that both were debarred (as in together) looking as though they were mother & daughter yet no trace of Victoria since.

Surely Maggie wasn't in prison from then until 1911 'assuming' it's her ???

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 03:45 BST (UK)
Annie said:
Surely Maggie wasn't in prison from then until 1911 'assuming' it's her


Maybe Sara can find out!

The City of Toronto Archives has the correct years for Criminal Records and Warrants and Arrests for in person viewing, if you call ahead.

I tried to hyperlink the urls, but they contain [brackets] that kill the link, and they are five km long, so I will just pm the links to Sara.

As to Victoria, it looks like she was never registered, so perhaps she was put out for adoption, with the adoptive parents giving her a new first name?

I just want to mention another possible scenario that I was checking, in case anyone was thinking the same:
What if Maggie was really a Noble, and was a daughter/granddaughter of Angus and Ann and only used the Cameron name to give the appearance of being married when filling out Daisy's birth registration?  Then, once married to Mr Smith, she tells the truth, thus her death reg is now accurate.
The Margaret born to Angus and Ann (around 1875) vanishes after the 1881 census.  Could she be the (very young) mother of "our" Maggie?   NO. She vanishes totally.  I now own the birth/marriage/death certificates for every Maggie/Margaret Noble in all of Scotland  ::) and there is NOTHING to back up that theory.  Somewhat unfortunate, as it makes the Canadian documents make sense.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 04:06 BST (UK)
Yes bb, I can see your thinking but we also have to consider the DNA link which isn't pointing in that direction  :) I think we have established OUR Maggie to be Cameron/Cant?

Another wee thing (just in case it has relevance later) there was a house in Nairn named ' LILY COTTAGE' which may have been a reference to Maggie Fraser's dau as Lily is not a Highland name but it's a nice welcomed wee change from Margaret/Maggie  :-\  ::)

Strange how the mind works overtime searching for any clues to things.

I haven't stumbled on 'Brackenbaugh Cottage' yet but I'm now searching with only the word 'Cottage' as the spelling may differ & there's no variants/soundex option.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 04:15 BST (UK)
Annie said:
Yes bb, I can see your thinking but we also have to consider the DNA link which isn't pointing in that direction  :) I think we have established OUR Maggie to be Cameron/Cant?


Sorry, I wasn't being clear.  I still absolutely believe OUR Maggie was born Cant/Cameron, and raised Noble.  I was just checking the reverse situation, to rule it out, and didn't want anyone else wasting resources on it (or if they want to check, I have the documentation available).
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 04:37 BST (UK)
Ahh, okay, that makes sense  :)

Oh to find Maggie NOBLE & Maggie FRASER  ???

I haven't had a minute to search for them in England yet & I'm still curious what took Maggie CANT there (reason)...did they go as a job lot as they all disappear at the same time  ;D

She was already 'with child' when she married but when did she go & why go back home for the birth of the baby who died...seems crazy.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 05:06 BST (UK)
She was already 'with child' when she married but when did she go & why go back home for the birth of the baby who died...seems crazy.

Okay, I'm beyond thinking now.  Who are you referring to?

Brackenhaugh Cottage: 4th paragraph down mentions the cottage you seek: (give it a second to load)
https://www.daelive.com/articles/ResortProfiles.aspx?EndpointID=EUR&ResortID=7087
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 05:17 BST (UK)
Ooops, sorry, I was referring to Margaret Cant.

Thanks for the link, couldn't find it anywhere, maybe you have an 'updated' google  ;D

Before I forget & have to scroll & search online...where was Maggie NOBLE (dau of Peter) born?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 05:26 BST (UK)
I think you were searching BrackenBaugh, which brings up nothing (instead of BrackenHaugh).

where was Maggie NOBLE (dau of Peter) born

If you mean Fraser, Peter Fraser's 1901 census says Maggie born Nairn, Nairnshire and the certificate posted by Cosmac says Union Poorhouse  Parish of Nairn.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 05:28 BST (UK)
MC was in Albert St Nairn on the 1891 census. She married my Gt grandad 22 May 1892 in Caunton Notts. On 25 Sep 1892 she was giving birth to a son James Cant Antliff in Chapelton Moss. Her mother registered the baby and stated that although her daughter was married the husband was not the father of the child. James sadly died a few weeks later.
George Henry and MC went on to have 6 children.

There seems to be some debate on the birth year of "Maggie". This may be the deciding point. My MC only has a possibility of a few years for "Maggie" to be hers.

Larkspur...See Reply #53 for Maggie's birth entry from SP & can you possibly fill us in with when/why she came to be so far from home please?

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 05:32 BST (UK)
I think you were searching BrackenBaugh, which brings up nothing (instead of BrackenHaugh).

where was Maggie NOBLE (dau of Peter) born

If you mean Fraser, Peter Fraser's 1901 census says Maggie born Nairn, Nairnshire and the certificate posted by Cosmac says Union Poorhouse  Parish of Nairn.

Yes, I was searching Brackenbaugh which was on the 1891 transcription...thank you  ;)

No actually, I really meant dau of Angus...I have Maggieitis now  ::)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 05:45 BST (UK)
1875 Births in the Parish of Urquhart in the County of Ross

Margaret Noble, born 28 Mar, C???? Village
Father - Angus Noble, railway porter
Mother - Ann Noble M/S Ross
parents marriage November(?) 1873, Auldern

As to your post about M Cant returning to having the (not husband's) baby, I think that is to do with the Poor House laws? 

Maybe you can read the Village name for Margaret's birth:
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 05:54 BST (UK)
We might be giving poor Maggie Cameron/Noble a bad reputation.  Many people were debarred or restricted from entering the U.S.  I think many of the reasons for labelling someone a criminal were more subjective than legal.  If you google it you get a few book references.  Some referred to women travelling by themselves and refused entry because it was assumed they were prostitutes.  Etc. Etc.  Even though Maggie had her passage paid and seemed to have a guarantee of a job with a specific destination the job of wet nurse seemed, according to reading, about six months employment.  Somehow it was thought that breast milk lost its vitality the longer a woman breast fed.  Since one of the reasons for keeping a person out of the country was the possibility they might not have a job and become a burden on society perhaps someone made the decision just to exclude her since she also had a small child to look after.  Maggie Noble's only crime might have been she was a woman with a child to support.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 06:07 BST (UK)
Annie, Google says there was a Conanbridge in Urquhart, so I think it says Conan Village.

Cosmac - that is just plain.... sad.  Makes sense though.  One thing I can't figure out is that on her ship manifest, which was many months before the attempted trip to the US, they stamped her as "gone to USA", or something similiar, (just going by memory).  Any theories?

Edit to add link:
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?id=e003624131&op=img&app=passengerlist
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 06:19 BST (UK)
Unless the Gone to USA stamp referred to the person above.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 06:26 BST (UK)
Could be, if their aim was bad with the stamper!  Beside her British Bonus stamp, it looks like a date over "5 yr", so I was trying to make sense of it all.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 06:35 BST (UK)
The number of years experience she had as a domestic?
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 06:46 BST (UK)
I think you are right.... I see others on there with yrs listed.  Odd that they would care, unless passenger lists were also used for hiring purposes.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: larkspur on Saturday 23 September 17 11:04 BST (UK)
MC was in Albert St Nairn on the 1891 census. She married my Gt grandad 22 May 1892 in Caunton Notts. On 25 Sep 1892 she was giving birth to a son James Cant Antliff in Chapelton Moss. Her mother registered the baby and stated that although her daughter was married the husband was not the father of the child. James sadly died a few weeks later.
George Henry and MC went on to have 6 children.

There seems to be some debate on the birth year of "Maggie". This may be the deciding point. My MC only has a possibility of a few years for "Maggie" to be hers.

Larkspur...See Reply #53 for Maggie's birth entry from SP & can you possibly fill us in with when/why she came to be so far from home please?

Annie

I have been looking for the reason she moved to Nottinghamshire for the last 40 odd years, with no luck at all. Even her eldest son could not tell me!! He did not even know her correct maiden name, and I searched for a Margaret KERR for a long time! The only thing I have found, one witness at the marriage, a Caunton man, friend of George Henry, had a wife from Scotland  ???
I know MC's daughter Jessie visited Scotland to stay with family as I have many photo's of kids with no names, I also know the Scottish "lot" visited Caunton as I have photo's of them too.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: larkspur on Saturday 23 September 17 11:20 BST (UK)
Trains Newark to Forres, these times are present day, so goodness knows how long the journey would be in 1891. Mmm thinking about it the Victorians were more efficient than us  :-X The cost being another factor, she was  a domestic servant....not much cash there.

Newark North Gate
Forres
10h 12m
4 changes

Newark North Gate
Forres
20h 40 mins
3 changes
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 13:28 BST (UK)
Annie, Google says there was a Conanbridge in Urquhart, so I think it says Conan Village.

That's the place but it's good to know for searching later census' but I think Maggie Noble disappears after 1881?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 15:29 BST (UK)
There is a death on Scotlands People for Auldearn, Nairn for 9 year old Maggie Noble.  Fits with place and age.  I had searched before for a death but probably only using Margaret.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 18:06 BST (UK)
Back in post 109 (pg 13) and again in post 143 (pg 16) Rosinish queried who the Margaret Noble was on a 1911 census:

Annie, there are Camerons on the page, (father Evan, wife Jesse, son John) but it is not the same household with Margaret Noble.   She is the daughter of widowed Roderick Noble, with her siblings of John, William, and Catherine.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Saturday 23 September 17 18:34 BST (UK)

Maggie & Edward were supposedly married 1906 in Fraserburgh.

I'm not sure where you saw the Fraserburgh connection. ???  Daisy's birth cert. just states Scotland for place of marriage.

Do you know something I missed, or did you dip into our case of celebration wine already?

I'm not sure how the marriage was in Fraserburgh... that could be a mistake on my part? But I think Maggie just made up the marriage anyhow.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 18:43 BST (UK)
Think it's easy to connect the different facts together in error when dealing with multiple theories.  Daisy's birth does just indicate a Scottish marriage and like you I believe it was just made up.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Saturday 23 September 17 18:44 BST (UK)
I have also lost the plot along the way a few times... but is this what we are thinking is possible?:

Maggie was born to Margaret Cant, and named Maggie Cameron due to father Alexander, but raised by Mary Ann Cameron, who then married Peter Fraser. When Maggie Fraser came along, Maggie Cameron was given to the Nobles to raise (who lived close proximity).

Maggie’s mother was Margaret Cant (of member larkspurs Cant family), and there is a DNA link relating her to me.

Maggie came to Canada in 1909, and had a daughter Victoria, and may have been a criminal because she was turned away at the US border when she was trying to cross to be a wet nurse in Buffalo.

How does Lily Fraser relate?

I should have relatives Cant, (confirmed), Antliff(e), Cameron, and possibly even Fraser (if Alexander Cameron actually is the right father).

If lucky, also relatives that came after Victoria, and possibly after Harold Smith, presumably born in Ontario area as well.

Does this sound right?

----

Tomorrow, my husband is going to take me to Maggie's cemetary, and see if we can find anything.

I should also go to the Toronto Archives (when I have a weekday time) to look up and see if I can find any arrests for Maggie Noble. And maybe birth records (I'm not sure what they have there) for Maggie's children William Arthur Smith and Harold Smith, and possibly Victoria?

I am going to write/call the orphanage to see if they have any information on Maggie and the boys as well.

Is there anything else I should do that's Toronto related?
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 19:13 BST (UK)
Sara, before you get the stepbrothers birth registrations, check what info you might need.  They may be still considered private, so you might need to take some kind of documentation? 

Don't get your hopes up too high for a headstone.... during the war, very few people got them, as all resources went to the war (according to the caretakers of several cemeteries around me).
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 19:16 BST (UK)
Sometime between the 1901 census and 1906, Angus Noble and family took over the boarding house at 5 Simpson St.

1901 census, Angus, Annie, sons John and William and Margaret Cameron/Cant/Noble are at 18 Harbour St.

07 Dec 1906  The newspaper Inverness Courier has an article on Angus Noble, 5 Simpson St, found guilty of beating his wife about the head and body, and breach of peace.

28 May 1907  Maggie Noble has a baby girl, Maggie Ann, at 5 Simpson St.

20 August 1907  The Aberdeen Press and Journal runs the sad story of baby Maggie Ann (see post 142 for article) which occurred at 5 Simpson St.

10 Sept 1907 Baby Maggie Ann dies at 5 Simpson St.  Cause of death "convulsions?" The question mark is theirs, not mine.  Mother Maggie Noble, informant, was not present; she was at Inchyettle, Cawdor at the time.

03 Jul 1908  Angus Noble of 5 Simpson St dies in hospital. Cause of death: cirrhosis of liver and uncertain. Son William of 5 Simpson St is informant.

Feb 1909  Maggie Noble sails to Canada, destination Toronto, with a corresponding border crossing attempt in Nov 1909 which indicates a brother "Joseph" (which should be John) at 5 Simpson St. Nairn.

1911 Scottish census  Widowed Ann Noble, lodging house keeper, with son William and several boarders at 5 Simpson St.

1920  Death of Ann Noble at 5 Simpson St. Cause of death, hemiplegia 4 yrs.  Signed by J. Noble (absent).

I think if you accept the fact that the Nobles are the ones raising Margaret Cant/Cameron, that she is indeed the mother of Maggie Ann as well as Victoria in Toronto.  And remember, Ann Noble's mother was a Cameron!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 19:21 BST (UK)
Lily Fraser was one of two illegitimate children of Maggie Fraser (illegitimate daughter of Peter Fraser).  Maggie gave both children to Mary Ann Fraser (nee Cameron) to raise and are on the 1911 census with the Fraser family in Cawdor, Nairn.  After Lily's birth we lose track of Maggie Fraser but the fact she registered Lily's birth in March 1909 indicated Maggie Cameron in the household of Angus and Ann Noble in 1901 is an entirely different person than the Maggie Fraser in the 1901 household of Peter and Mary Ann Fraser.
Your Maggie might have a criminal record or just been a victim of social judgement prevalent in that era.
Ontario archives should have the birth records available to view for both the Smith children. 1917 births are now in public domain.   Since we can't find a birth for Victoria online at ancestry most likely that birth wasn't registered.

Just read bbart's Simpson Street accounting.  Certainly did a lot of work for you and makes a convincing case.  Earned that glass of wine!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Saturday 23 September 17 19:51 BST (UK)
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/5+Simpson+St,+Nairn+IV12+4NT,+UK/@57.5865961,-3.8662109,618m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48857ff83900c4a1:0xc082838b50135453!8m2!3d57.5865162!4d-3.865854

5 Simpson Street still stands
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Saturday 23 September 17 21:22 BST (UK)
I should mention that I have found DNA links with Camerons in their trees.

But not a direct link like the Cants. I still have to work on that to see if I can find anyone with a direct Cameron relation to my tree, making Alexander Cameron is the right dad. Especially since it was contested at the time.

I assume they did not have DNA evidence back then?
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 21:24 BST (UK)
Very nice Cosmac!

Sara, try these links:
http://gencat.eloquent-systems.com/torontodetail.html?key=236396

http://gencat.eloquent-systems.com/torontodetail.html?key=24873

One link should take you to warrants, the other to criminal registers.  Check all the file titles for 1909, as 1909 is in more than one.

Or, if you get to the Archives, just tell them what you are looking for (as in name and date).
You may very well find nothing, as, like Cosmac pointed out, she may have been disbarred for absolutely no criminal reason. 
Her passenger record did state she had a large scar on her forehead.  Maybe the guard just thought she looked like a "tough" girl.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 21:26 BST (UK)
I assume they did not have DNA evidence back then?

Nooo.  Not until the 1980's.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 23:11 BST (UK)
I think Sara mentioned there was no sighting of Maggie Noble/Cameron/Cant in Canada (as such) apart from the Passenger List (1909) with Maggie Noble (no Victoria on there) until the birth of Edna Daisy?

This of course was (I think) prior to the Border Crossing info. of Maggie Noble (with dau Victoria) & the 1911 entry?

What I can't fathom is whether Maggie NOBLE (1909 Passenger), Maggie NOBLE 1909 (Border Crossing with Victoria) & Maggie CAMMERON 1911 (Inmate) are the same person  ???

Just using terms here for ease of following...

CRIMINAL (1909) & INMATE (1911) seem rather a coincidence but it seems a big gap between  ::)

If both are the same Maggie I can't get my head round how someone could be a CRIMINAL using 1 name & INMATE using another  :-\

Sara, you asked if there was anything else to consider at the ARCHIVES i.e. you need to look for both surnames I think & of course how long Maggie CAMMERON  was an INMATE  ???

Edna born 20 Jul 1911 i.e. if it's OUR Maggie as INMATE she would need to have been released prior to circa end of Oct 1910 (ASSUMING) a full term baby but was she already in a relationship prior to being an INMATE or was this someone she met after her release even 'though she proclaims to be married  ???

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Saturday 23 September 17 23:21 BST (UK)
What I can't fathom is whether Maggie NOBLE (Passenger), Maggie NOBLE (Border Crossing with Victoria) & Maggie CAMMERON (1911) are the same person

I don't think they are.  The Maggie Cammeron inmate was in a refuge (homeless shelter) so not really a jail, and it was indicated she was born in Ontario.  I just think we were looking for a Maggie Cameron, and as we have learned, look for one, find two hundred. 
"Our" Maggie doesn't seem to deviate from the Noble surname until she fills out the birth reg for Daisy, and I'm guessing by then, she realized having an illegitamate baby wouldn't help get a job in Canada, as opposed to being much more acceptable in Nairn.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Saturday 23 September 17 23:39 BST (UK)
What I can't fathom is whether Maggie NOBLE (Passenger), Maggie NOBLE (Border Crossing with Victoria) & Maggie CAMMERON (1911) are the same person

I don't think they are.  The Maggie Cammeron inmate was in a refuge (homeless shelter) so not really a jail, and it was indicated she was born in Ontario.  I just think we were looking for a Maggie Cameron, and as we have learned, look for one, find two hundred. 
"Our" Maggie doesn't seem to deviate from the Noble surname until she fills out the birth reg for Daisy, and I'm guessing by then, she realized having an illegitamate baby wouldn't help get a job in Canada, as opposed to being much more acceptable in Nairn.

Yes, I can imagine that. Hard enough to get a job. My grandfather had a hard time getting a job, and my (adoptive) great-grandmother was not pleased with my grandmother marrying a foreigner (from England!).
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 September 17 23:55 BST (UK)
Apologies...my head is sore & I'm making errors...

Maggie (INMATE) would have had to have been (inside) after Oct 1910 & 'with child' but thanks BB as I hadn't picked up on the INMATE term being in a Refuge probably because I was focused on the word CRIMINAL & of course a connection i.e. INMATE would fit the thinking process (well mine anyhow)  ;D

Annie

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Sunday 24 September 17 00:10 BST (UK)
So, after 200+ posts, are we done?  Do we get to open that case of wine yet?  ;D
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 24 September 17 00:21 BST (UK)
BB, I think we're very hot but we still need to confirm a few things...

Where is OUR Maggie in 1911 for the census & is she the 1 who was disbarred?

I'm unsure of the Canadian census date for 1911?

What happened to baby Victoria?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Sunday 24 September 17 00:47 BST (UK)
Where is OUR Maggie in 1911 for the census & is she the 1 who was disbarred?

She may have snuck across the border to get to her job with the Woolley's, or if they just booted her off the train, she would have to go through Quebec to make her way back to Toronto.  I doubt we will ever know.
She is the one that is debarred as the border crossing states the ship she arrived on, and there is also the address of 5 Simpson St Nairn on the documents.

I'm unsure of the Canadian census date for 1911?

It commenced June 1911, but given the amount of remote areas, it wasn't completed until Feb 1912.

What happened to baby Victoria?

We will never know.  If she survived infancy, she was probably given up to for adoption.

Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 24 September 17 01:04 BST (UK)
So, after 200+ posts, are we done?  Do we get to open that case of wine yet?  ;D

It sure looks like it now as the true identity of OUR Maggie (Noble) has been confirmed as Margaret Cant/Cameron regarding at least her mother for now & it looks as though DNA is the only way to prove whether Alexander Cameron was indeed her father & I hope so  ;D

Good combined effort & a very enjoyable thread  :)

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Sunday 24 September 17 01:23 BST (UK)
Definitely enjoyable!

Hopefully Sara is successful at the cemetery tomorrow!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 24 September 17 01:51 BST (UK)
Hopefully Sara is successful at the cemetery tomorrow!

For sure but wouldn't it be the icing on the cake to find out who Edna Daisy's father was & I hope Sara will return with any details for that link in the future when it's known.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: cosmac on Sunday 24 September 17 03:28 BST (UK)
At the library check to see if they have anything on the Shetton Road House of Refuge.  If that is your Maggie using her legal name of Cameron it might explain how she came to be offered a position in Buffalo.  If she didn't end up at that particular institution she might have ended up in a similar one to have her daughter.  It might also explain why there is no birth registration.  It might have been entered into a registry at the refuge and not forwarded on.  It might also account for the disappearance of Victoria.  Child might have been adopted into another family from the house.
Lots of suppositions but unless Maggie had gainful employment she could have been in such a place.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 24 September 17 15:40 BST (UK)
FRASER MARGARET
MACKAY ALEXANDER 1909    123/ 14 Nairn

That marriage may be significant after all?

Although this entry is a good time prior to 1909 the surname & residence hints at a possible connection & maybe a son/g son of this Alexander?

1885 MACKAY ALEXANDER Tenant Occupier CROFT OF CHAPELTON MOSS FORRES VR010900031-


This is a couple of links which may be of interest...

This one approx. half way down page (I have omitted some of the text)…

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1341&p=localities.britisles.scotland.mor.general

“my gt gt gt aunt had a child called mary Ann Newlands Cant born 5 July 1874 to Mary Cant from Chapelton Moss. Mary had a further 8 children and died a spinster in 1928 and is buried in Dyke”


http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/85597845

1855 - Long time Tenants at Chapelton Moss

CANT JOHN Tenant Occupier CROFT AT CHAPELTON MOSS FORRES  VR010900001-
&
FRASER MARGARET MRS Proprietor CROFT OF CHAPELTON MOSS FORRES 1855 VR010900001-

Annie




Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Sunday 24 September 17 21:28 BST (UK)
Got up early to check when the Cemetary is open for visitors... CLOSED SUNDAY.  Wha?
So sad... my cousin was going to meet me there and everything.
Another day I guess. My grandmother's still born baby (before my mother) is in the cemetery as well.

THANK you everyone for all your time and help on Maggie!

Currently gathering facts for the day I can get to the archives.

And also currently researching Cameron DNA links, to see if I can link them to any Camerons related to Alexander. There has been a large number of Camerons in the DNA, but so far, none from Nairn. Lots from Fodderty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fodderty
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: larkspur on Sunday 24 September 17 22:04 BST (UK)
The very old Ancestry quote is me!!
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 24 September 17 22:30 BST (UK)
At least you know the ones in the cemetery will still be there when you go back.

How far back have you got with Alexander Cameron?

People moved around back in the day for different reasons & Alexander's father was born Inverness-shire which is probably around half way between Nairn & Fodderty.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Sunday 24 September 17 23:27 BST (UK)
Not very far on Alexander Cameron.  I have that his father is Hugh, born 1835 Inverness, and his father is Alexander born 1799 Kiltarlity.

I'm only on my second Cameron relation, the first one was not close, but this one in Fodderty is not too far - but no matches to the tree I want yet and they go from 1806 - 1947

Could this be Maggie in Toronto, 1911?
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Pages/item.aspx?itemid=7179584
age and ethnic origin wrong (but not too far off)
The only one I found who's not living with other Noble (or Cameron) famiy

At least you know the ones in the cemetery will still be there when you go back.

How far back have you got with Alexander Cameron?

People moved around back in the day for different reasons & Alexander's father was born Inverness-shire which is probably around half way between Nairn & Fodderty.

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 25 September 17 00:09 BST (UK)
I looked at that census but the writing is too small for me to read what the columns say.

Can you identify with the area where the census was taken i.e. the address & is it near where she gave birth, married or settled?

That's the only thing I can think of for the possibility.

I had a list typed up with her age given on all the docs but I think I deleted it.

From memory I think her age was quite consistent but the chances are someone else gave details for the census?

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 25 September 17 00:32 BST (UK)
Not very far on Alexander Cameron.  I have that his father is Hugh, born 1835 Inverness, and his father is Alexander born 1799 Kiltarlity.

I'm only on my second Cameron relation, the first one was not close, but this one in Fodderty is not too far - but no matches to the tree I want yet and they go from 1806 - 1947

The more info. on trees online from paper trails the more likely a match as people identify with it better & sometimes people don't have siblings or know about them until they come across potentials so it's worth putting your paper trail details out there.

I was helping someone online not too long ago (probably less than a year) & someone else identified with info. I'd given about my relative.
That person didn't know there were any siblings of the person they identified with until I gave them the info.
I then discovered that person had info. on a sibling of my 3 x g g/father.
The person was working away from home & was going to get in touch when he arrived back but I haven't heard from him & now I can't find the post to get in touch with him.
I don't know whether the sibling was male or female either...nothing  ::)
I don't know whether that sibling married in Scotland, died here or immigrated....one day I'm sure I will come across the link but frustrating to have a 'carrot' so to speak  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Monday 25 September 17 02:57 BST (UK)

Could this be Maggie in Toronto, 1911?
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Pages/item.aspx?itemid=7179584
age and ethnic origin wrong (but not too far off)
The only one I found who's not living with other Noble (or Cameron) famiy

Her religion is wrong too.  :-[

I just found that Prospect Cemetery has a find a grave map.....  However you still might need the office to be open to actually find it, they might give you names of surrounding graves so you know when you are close.   Usually there is numbers painted on the walkways or curbs so you know when you are in the right area, so if you want to try going on a Sunday when the office is closed, try this:

Edit: In case she has no headstone, look for her "neighbours" to know if you are in the right spot:
17/3562 William Keats
17/3563 Maggie
17/3564 Raymond Fitzsimmons
17/3565 couldn't find a match
17/3566 David Henderson

Hopefully one or more has a headstone, so you can determine whether Maggie does, or if it's just  patch of grass.



Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Monday 25 September 17 14:46 BST (UK)

Could this be Maggie in Toronto, 1911?
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Pages/item.aspx?itemid=7179584
age and ethnic origin wrong (but not too far off)
The only one I found who's not living with other Noble (or Cameron) famiy

Her religion is wrong too.  :-[

I just found that Prospect Cemetery has a find a grave map.....  However you still might need the office to be open to actually find it, they might give you names of surrounding graves so you know when you are close.   Usually there is numbers painted on the walkways or curbs so you know when you are in the right area, so if you want to try going on a Sunday when the office is closed, try this:

Edit: In case she has no headstone, look for her "neighbours" to know if you are in the right spot:
17/3562 William Keats
17/3563 Maggie
17/3564 Raymond Fitzsimmons
17/3565 couldn't find a match
17/3566 David Henderson

Hopefully one or more has a headstone, so you can determine whether Maggie does, or if it's just  patch of grass.

amazing help. Good to know I can go when it's not "open".  :D
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Monday 25 September 17 14:50 BST (UK)
You guys have been such a help on this! I'm a graphic designer with 25 years experience using Photoshop. Please message me if you want any photo restoration help. If you have a large file we can email.

THANKS
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 26 September 17 05:38 BST (UK)
It's a been a fun run!  I'm still poking around the directories, but I think we have turned over every rock thus far.  Let us know how the cemetery goes, and when I run dry, I'll pm you for your email so I can send all the documents I've collected.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: larkspur on Tuesday 26 September 17 09:20 BST (UK)
Sarah, I have been very surprised to learn that my great grandmother may have "left" another daughter in Scotland when she came south. I had no idea. If you would like any further details on Margaret Cant b 1866, and her various children do get in touch.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Tuesday 26 September 17 11:51 BST (UK)
Thank you larkspur and bbart.

I am still researching the Cameron side to see if I can find a direct DNA link there, but I did find another strong Cant DNA link, again in Oregon. Larkspur, I'll definitely be in touch about Margaret Cant, 1866.

This is a heavy work week (including upcoming weekend), but my cousin and I are planning a trip after (Canadian) Thanksgiving, to the cemetery together, and to see the houses our mom/dad, grandparents and great grandparents lived.

After I've finished that, I'll have to see if I can figure out my grandma's birth dad. That may be a real long shot.

This has been amazing. Thanks to you all!  :D
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Tuesday 24 October 17 03:22 BST (UK)
My mom took this photo for me, of the newspaper clipping of when my grandmother was reunited with her brother, and other brother there too.

These are all 3 of Maggie’s children born in Toronto
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: larkspur on Tuesday 05 December 17 17:28 GMT (UK)
"I am still researching the Cameron side to see if I can find a direct DNA link there, but I did find another strong Cant DNA link, again in Oregon. Larkspur, I'll definitely be in touch about Margaret Cant, 1866."
If you would like to send me a PM, with the DNA Cant links, I can check my tree and look - see if they are there. ;) My gt gt grandmother -yet another Margaret Cant. Had a sister Mary- her of the many illegitimate children...one of her sons went to Oregon.
Title: Re: Maggie Cameron - Noble - Smith (Toronto and area)
Post by: saraslater on Thursday 07 December 17 17:05 GMT (UK)
Thanks!  I can email PM you soon with the info I have on the DNA Cant links. At least one is the Oregon branch.

Work has been so busy, I can't wait for holiday time to start.

"I am still researching the Cameron side to see if I can find a direct DNA link there, but I did find another strong Cant DNA link, again in Oregon. Larkspur, I'll definitely be in touch about Margaret Cant, 1866."
If you would like to send me a PM, with the DNA Cant links, I can check my tree and look - see if they are there. ;) My gt gt grandmother -yet another Margaret Cant. Had a sister Mary- her of the many illegitimate children...one of her sons went to Oregon.