RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: notaninch on Tuesday 19 September 17 14:15 BST (UK)
-
I am trying to discover who the parents were of two particular familes in Wexford in the mid 19th century.
In 1873 Patrick Breen of Main Street North, Wexford married Eliza Dowling (some records spell it as Dawling but I believe it is Dowling). Patrick was born abt 1834 and died in 1912. In the census record of 1901 and 1911 he records his occupation an organist and later as professor of music. Eliza was born about 1850 and died in 1915. Eliza may have been born Elizabeth Frances Dowling!
Is Breen a Wexford surname and does anyone recognise him in their research? Who were his parents ?
Is Dowling a Wexford surname? I believe Eliza is most likely the daughter of Edward Dowling and Eliza Shudall who may have been from the Rathangan area of Co Wexford. Again does anyone recognise these people in their research ? Can they confirm who her parents were etc.
-
Religion?
-
Marriage of PATRICK BREEN
in 1873
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Wexford
Returns Year 1873
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 14
Returns Page No 435
-
A photocopy of the Cert is €4.00
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
-
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0592 Rathangan
-
Religion?
They appear to be RC certainly in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses but I can't be certain of their religion further back in time.
-
Religion?
They appear to be RC certainly in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses but I can't be certain of their religion further back in time.
OK, if you don't look you might not know.
-
Religion?
They appear to be RC certainly in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses but I can't be certain of their religion further back in time.
OK, if you don't look you might not know.
Yes I know what you're saying Hallmark. His father in the 1901 census is RC. The son marries in an RC church and their children are RC baptised. But I know all too well that in Ireland some protestant families split up as members converted or married RC and remained RC thereafter. That is the reason I am saying I cannot be certain.
-
Eliza is most likely the daughter of Edward Dowling and Eliza Shudall who may have been from the Rathangan area of Co Wexford....so you can look to see if she is or not.
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0592
-
Eliza is most likely the daughter of Edward Dowling and Eliza Shudall who may have been from the Rathangan area of Co Wexford....so you can look to see if she is or not.
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0592
I am fairly confident Eliza is the daughter of Edward Dowling and Eliza Shudall. When you add the other evidence to that she attends her grandchild's birth as Eliza Breen formerly Dowling - surely this is corroborative proof. Shudall is not a common name
-
Eliza is most likely the daughter of Edward Dowling and Eliza Shudall who may have been from the Rathangan area of Co Wexford....so you can look to see if she is or not.
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0592
I am fairly confident Eliza is the daughter of Edward Dowling and Eliza Shudall. When you add the other evidence to that she attends her grandchild's birth as Eliza Breen formerly Dowling - surely this is corroborative proof. Shudall is not a common name
OK
-
Thanks for your help Hallmark. The needle in the haystack is tackling who Patrick Breen's parents are and who are Edward Dowling's parents are. There are simply too many with same names in same area who are contemporaries and with such a scarcity of records not sure I want to go there. I think Eliza Shudall may be the daughter of Francis which might help to explain the grandson being named Francis John. Cheers for now Hallmark
-
Marriage of PATRICK BREEN
in 1873
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Wexford
Returns Year 1873
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 14
Returns Page No 435
will get father's name and townland/address
-
great much appreciated
-
I would also like to know if you found out any information on the parents of Patrick Breen and Eliza Dowling from wexford. They are my great-great grandparents. Their son Francis Breen married Elizabeth Lumley (father Capt. Joseph Lumley of Waterford) and their eldest daughter, Letitia Breen was my grandmother.
-
The 1874 (not 1873) marriage registration for Patrick Breen and Elizabeth Dowling is available online. Why didn't the OP simply look?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11247/8125167.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11247/8125167.pdf)
This completely disproves the leading theory previously put forward here!
Patrick was an organist (already known from profession on later census materials), aged 35. His father was John Breen, a cattle dealer, who was already dead.
Elizabeth was a shopkeeper, aged 26, daughter of Raymond Dowling, a customs officer.
-
Name: Elizabeth Frances Dowling
Date of Birth: 05-Nov-1848
Date of Baptism: 07-Nov-1848
Address: Not Recorded
Parish/District: Wexford
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: Raymond Dowling
Mother: Mary Holbrook
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: William Robinson
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Frances Birmingham
The Holbrooks were a long-established family of hairdressers in Wexford.
-
Elizabeth had at least three siblings
Mary Anne, born 20/9/1839
John, 13/6/1844
Raymond, 13/6/1844 (Twins).
Not that the godfather for Raymond (born 13/6/1844) is also Raymond Dowling - grandfather?
I suspect the marriage of Raymond Dowling and Mary Holbrook is recorded in the Wexford parish registers - perhaps someone with a direct connection might care to look.
-
Griffith's Valuation Record Information
Tenant
Family Name 1 DOWLING
Forename 1 RAYMOND
Landlord
Family Name 2 WORMINGTON
Forename 2 JOHN
Location
County WEXFORD
Barony FORTH
Union WEXFORD
Parish ST IBERIUS (IN THE TOWN OF WEXFORD)
Townland WEXFORD, TOWN OF
Place Name HIGH STREET
Place Type OTHER
Publication Details
Position on Page 20
Printing Date 1853
Act 15&16
Sheet Number 37
Map Reference 1 12
-
John Breen, shown as holding two "market stalls" on High Street, the same street where Raymond Dowling was living. Having a market stall is of course consistent with the profession of "cattle dealer" shown on the 1874 marriage registration of his son.
Griffith's Valuation Record Information
Tenant
Family Name 1 BREEN
Forename 1 JOHN
Landlord
Family Name 2 TAYLOR
Forename 2 WILLIAM
Prefix REPS
Location
County WEXFORD
Barony FORTH
Union WEXFORD
Parish ST IBERIUS (IN THE TOWN OF WEXFORD)
Townland WEXFORD, TOWN OF
Place Name HIGH STREET
Place Type OTHER
Publication Details
Position on Page 57
Printing Date 1853
Act 15&16
Sheet Number 37
Map Reference 1 27;22
-
This could *possibly* be the birth of Patrick Breen
Name: Patrick
Date of Birth: 7/7/1839
Date of Baptism: 9/7/1839
Parish: Wexford
Father: John *Byrne*
Mother: Ally Fanning
Sponsor: Catherine Reardon
I did not perform an extensive search
-
Name: Francis John Breen
Date of Birth: 02-Jul-1880
Date of Baptism: 03-Jul-1880
Address: Not Recorded
Parish/District: Wexford
Gender: M
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: Patrick Breen
Mother: Elizabeth Dowling
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: James Moore
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Margaret Hoolbook
-
1880 Birth registration for Francis Breen
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02859/2047826.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02859/2047826.pdf)
-
The 1874 (not 1873) marriage registration for Patrick Breen and Elizabeth Dowling is available online. Why didn't the OP simply look?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11247/8125167.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11247/8125167.pdf)
This completely disproves the leading theory previously put forward here!
Patrick was an organist (already known from profession on later census materials), aged 35. His father was John Breen, a cattle dealer, who was already dead.
Elizabeth was a shopkeeper, aged 26, daughter of Raymond Dowling, a customs officer.
Wexflyer, You are absolutely correct Patrick Breen was son of John Breen and Eliza was the daughter of Raymond Dowling and Mary Holbrook. Unfortunately the marriage record was not available on Irish genealogy at the time of the original request for help. I can now correct this. Many thanks for letting me know
-
I would also like to know if you found out any information on the parents of Patrick Breen and Eliza Dowling from wexford. They are my great-great grandparents. Their son Francis Breen married Elizabeth Lumley (father Capt. Joseph Lumley of Waterford) and their eldest daughter, Letitia Breen was my grandmother.
berni2u
Wexflyer has put me straight on the parents of Eliza Breen (nee Dowling).
My grandmother was Betty Lumley who was the niece of Captain Joseph. Her father (William) was the youngest brother of Captain Joseph. He too went to sea as did a number of other brothers. I have a good deal of information about the Lumley family if you need more information. I have also been in touch with the La Strada FHS who have quite a bit of information about Francis John Breen and his family. Where are you living?
-
Thanks so much Wexflyer for finding that info.
-
Notaninch,
What is La strada FHS? If you have more info on the Lumleys and Breens, I would love if you could share that with me. I'm on ancestry.com. I do believe we may have emailed before. I live in the US, right outside of Chicago.
-
Notaninch,
What is La strada FHS? If you have more info on the Lumleys and Breens, I would love if you could share that with me. I'm on ancestry.com. I do believe we may have emailed before. I live in the US, right outside of Chicago.
Berni2u
La Strada is where the Breens lived after emigrating from Wexford. Is it now a suburb of Chicago (?) Anyway La Strada family history society hold some information about Francis - in particular how he played music not only in church but at theaters that grew up in the silent movies era. I have a great deal of information on the Lumley's including the grandparents and great grandparents of Mary Elizabeth Breen (nee Lumley). I have less information on the Breen's unfortunately other than the parents of Francis (who had a brother). I also now know the parents of Eliza Breen (nee Dowling who married Patrick Breen) and the grandfather of Francis Breen ( namely cattle dealer John Breen).
Let me know what in particular you would be interested in - perhaps I could send my e-mail address via pm if that would be easier.
Oh by the way I am in the UK
-
Does this La Strada Historical society have a website? I can't find one. I was not aware that the Breens lived anywhere else but La Grange, Illinois, which is just outside of Chicago. I would love to talk more about the Lumley's too.
Thanks
-
Does this La Strada Historical society have a website? I can't find one. I was not aware that the Breens lived anywhere else but La Grange, Illinois, which is just outside of Chicago. I would love to talk more about the Lumley's too.
Thanks
I haven't made this an auspicious intro - it is of course La Grange not La Strada (long story which I will explain later). You may already know of the La Grange Area Historical Society ....web address www.lagrangehistory.org/ last year I made contact and they told me they had access to information about Francis and the family - stuff you may already have ? I no longer use Ancestry and have most of my stuff in word documents.
The long story.... is I am nearing completion of rationalising my filing system and in the intervening process had a hard drive failure. I then had to recover and piece together stuff from various discs and pen drives - as well as from paperwork. I have now sorted all the Lumley records out and hopefully I can now avoid such human errors. If you want me to share then it may be best I send word documents via my gmail - far too large to attach in rootsweb.
Attaching a photograph of the street where Francis and his parents lived (believed to be dated about 1890). They lived at 45 Main Street North, Wexford Town.
-
Elizabeth had at least three siblings
Mary Anne, born 20/9/1839
John, 13/6/1844
Raymond, 13/6/1844 (Twins).
Not that the godfather for Raymond (born 13/6/1844) is also Raymond Dowling - grandfather?
I suspect the marriage of Raymond Dowling and Mary Holbrook is recorded in the Wexford parish registers - perhaps someone with a direct connection might care to look.
Wexfordflyer - They married 11 Nov 1838
-
Does this La Strada Historical society have a website? I can't find one. I was not aware that the Breens lived anywhere else but La Grange, Illinois, which is just outside of Chicago. I would love to talk more about the Lumley's too.
Thanks
I now have the marriage entry for Raymond Dowling and Mary Holebrooke parents of Elizabeth - see attached. It is taken from the NLI catholic registers. Wexford Flyer suggests it was at the Franciscan Friary, Wexford Town. Took place 11 November 1838. If you follow this thread I have information about Raymond E Dowling Jnr) his twin brother John and their father Raymond Snr who died in London in 1898. Adding copies of official marriage and death registrations fro Patrick Joseph Breen and Elizabeth Frances Dowling
-
I now have the marriage entry for Raymond Dowling and Mary Holebrooke parents of Elizabeth - see attached. It is taken from the NLI catholic registers. I suspect it is the Church of the Immaculate Conception, Wexford Town. Took place 11 November 1838
No, not Rowe St. That church was only constructed in the 1850s (1851-1858).
Marriage would have been in the Franciscan Friary.
-
I now have the marriage entry for Raymond Dowling and Mary Holebrooke parents of Elizabeth - see attached. It is taken from the NLI catholic registers. I suspect it is the Church of the Immaculate Conception, Wexford Town. Took place 11 November 1838
No, not Rowe St. That church was only constructed in the 1850s (1851-1858).
Marriage would have been in the Franciscan Friary.
Happy to accept your suggestion it is the Franciscan Friary - NLI does not name the church itself. Have also found what appears to be the records of Raymond Dowling (Jnr). Raymond Dowling is certainly not a common name. What also looks intriguing is he is a customs waterman (1891) or is it a coincidence 2 Raymond Dowling's (of Ireland) worked in customs
-
Happy to accept your suggestion it is the Franciscan Friary - NLI does not name the church itself.
Indeed. But the Franciscan Friary is the only possibility in 1838. There was no other Catholic church in Wexford for centuries, until the completion of the "twin churches" of Bride St. and Rowe St. in 1858.
-
So when was the Immaculate conception built. That is where Patrick Breen married Elizabeth Dowling in 1874
-
So when was the Immaculate conception built. That is where Patrick Breen married Elizabeth Dowling in 1874
1858.
Immaculate Conception = Rowe St.
Assumption = Bride St.
Both completed in 1858.
-
As for the Raymond Dowling in England, my guess is that he is your relative. But you will have to order up the 1871 London marriage registration to be sure.
-
As for the Raymond Dowling in England, my guess is that he is your relative. But you will have to order up the 1871 London marriage registration to be sure.
I'm pretty sure he is and not only that his twin John and father were also in London in 1891. Raymond Snr died there in 1898. I know his son John is a couple of years younger than he should be i.e. 37 rather than 35 and shows him born Kent but this has to be the twin of Raymond Edward surely or did twin die and this is a later John?
-
Well, let me add another generation to your tree. Here is the baptism of Mary Holdbrook in 1814.
[Later preferred spelling appears to have been Holbrook/Hollbrook]
Name: Mary Holdbrook Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 26-Jan-1814
Parish/District: Wexford
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: John Holdbrook
Mother: Ellen Newport
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: Richard O'Connor
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Amelia Jeffries
John and Ellen had at least three other children
Anne, 13/2/1807
John 1/9/1809
? 15/11/1811
As I mentioned previously, the Holbrooks were hairdressers in Wexford for many generations. You can see later ones in the 1901 and 1911 census. On two of the baptisms, the mother's name is given as Eleanor.
-
I'm pretty sure he is and not only that his twin John and father were also in London in 1891.
That John looks like he might be a later, "replacement" John, if the earlier twin died? Notice place of birth, and age.
-
Well, let me add another generation to your tree. Here is the baptism of Mary Holdbrook in 1814.
[Later preferred spelling appears to have been Holbrook/Hollbrook]
Name: Mary Holdbrook Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 26-Jan-1814
Parish/District: Wexford
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: John Holdbrook
Mother: Ellen Newport
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: Richard O'Connor
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Amelia Jeffries
John and Ellen had at least three other children
Anne, 13/2/1807
John 1/9/1809
? 15/11/1811
As I mentioned previously, the Holbrooks were hairdressers in Wexford for many generations. You can see later ones in the 1901 and 1911 census. On two of the baptisms, the mother's name is given as Eleanor.
Nice one...thanks for this - my motto is the answers (the evidence) are out there. On the subject of another John born in Kent 2 or 3 years later it is feasible but then that would clash with Elizabeth Frances born in Wexford at this time. I often find census information is not always correct - our ancestors seemed to want to provide evidence as they saw fit...