RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: venelow on Wednesday 20 September 17 23:04 BST (UK)
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Hi Rootschatters
I have two questions regarding Thames Watermen:
Firstly, I have found a person of interest in the Transcript of the Binding Records (Cottrell). However the date of birth is blank. I understand that there were affidavits that gave the age and birthplace of the apprentice. If the DOB or YOB is missing does this mean the Affidavit is not available? Or if it is where would I find it?
Secondly, I have found a Waterman of the same name in the 1827 list whose YOB computes to circa 1788. If they are the same man, that would make him 16 when apprenticed in 1804, so that seems to be possible. However his release date is in 1816 which makes a twelve year period of being bound. Is this usual for Watermen?
Since the person I am tracing had a child in 1811 (mother named but marriage not yet found) would he have been able to marry while still bound? Or am I looking at two people with the same name?
I have not mentioned names as it is my understanding that the Binding List transcript is copyright.
Any insight re these questions would be welcome.
Thank you.
Venelow
Canada
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The normal term of apprenticeship for watermen was seven years after 1603.
It is now five years.
http://watermenscompany.com/the-company/history/
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Thank you Tonepad. That is what I thought. 12 years seems a long time to be bound.
Seven years would make the end of the apprenticeship 1811. His son was baptized in April 1811. I don't know how reliable Cottrell's transcript is rated. I can't see how there could be a a misreading of 1811 for 1816.
I have not found the original Bindings records on line.
Venelow
Canada
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Hi Venelow
Have you looked at these sites:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/thames-watermen-and-lightermen-1688-2010
http://www.parishregister.com/aboutstp.html
As you live in Canada, subscriptions would be required.
regards
Tony
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Hi Tony
Thank you for your suggestions.
I have consulted both those sites. The Parish Register has information on finding Watermen and Lightermen ancestors and refers to the Binding Books transcript thus:
" The Apprentice Bindings books (which record the name of the apprentice, the date of binding, the master’s name and mooring, and the date of freedom (i.e when the apprentice having learned his trade, qualified to get his own license) cover the period 1688 to 1949.
The original records are held in the Guildhall Library in London. (Address; Guildhall Library, Aldermanbury, London EC2P 2EJ Tel; 020 7332 1863; www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/guildhalllibrary .
If you are not able to get to the Guildhall, then we offer a number of alternatives.
The binding records entries (over 65,000 of them) have been transcribed by Rob Cottrell and are available in a PDF searchable format on CD-ROM.
This product is available from our Shop. Click here for more information.
Once you have the date and place of birth, you can search the Parish registers to obtain further genealogical information on your family. "
As previously stated I have consulted the Cottrell transcript but the date and place of birth are not recorded
and not just on the person I am looking at but others of the same era. The information transcribed is as described in the first paragraph quoted above.
There seems to be a missing step in the process as it jumps from the Apprentice Binding Books to "once you have the place and date of birth you can search the parish records".
I was hoping someone familiar with the records can tell me where I find the date and place of birth. Was there an Indenture giving the age of the apprentice, place of birth and father's name? I have also tried the Apprentice Tax Records with no luck.
I have a sub to Find My Past. I didn't realize these were free sites to people living in the UK. Maybe I should get my sister involved.
Venelow
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Findmypast is not generally free in the UK, but free access may be available at local libraries and Family History Societies. There is also occasional free promotional periods.
Tony
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Thanks for the explanation. Libraries here tend to go with the other company.
In Canada / US FindMyPast is affiliated with the LDS and one could access the site from a Family History Centre. That used to be the case. Not sure about now as I haven't visited for some time. Of course getting to a FHC is not always an option for many people.
Venelow
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There seems to be a missing step in the process as it jumps from the Apprentice Binding Books to "once you have the place and date of birth you can search the parish records".
I was hoping someone familiar with the records can tell me where I find the date and place of birth. Was there an Indenture giving the age of the apprentice, place of birth and father's name?
Yes, once you have the date of binding, you have to go to Guildhall and find the baptism certificate that I think needed to be provided to show that the applicant was of legitimate birth.
You get to look through a bundle of original certificates so they're not online.
The Binding books don't have the baptism details in the entry. It might even describe someone as 'of somewhere' though that person was baptised elsewhere
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Hi Venelow
I have recently pushed my watermen ancestors back a further two generations.
Last night I searched for my earliest ancestors on the binding records - and like you found gaps in the data available (date and place of birth). So it seems the guidance for using binding records is misleading. My case is not helped by my family having a very common surname and there is usually more than one man with the same name on the records from the same era. I have used census, baptism and marriage records as proof that my ancestors were watermen.
regards
Tony
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Hi Stevie
Thanks for the confirmation that the information on the dates and place of birth are not in the Cottrell Transcript.
My search is further compromised by the possibility that the Parish Records are not complete. My subject most likely was born and baptised at Erith and the Parish Records were damaged by a fire. I guess I will have to contact Guildhall for further information.
If anyone has access to the Bishops Transcripts for Erith I would welcome contact.
Thank you all.
Venelow
Canada
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"If anyone has access to the Bishops Transcripts for Erith I would welcome contact."
Have you tried FamilySearch?
Tony
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Snap, roughly
The images should be available online at an LDS Family History Centre if you can get to one of those
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Hi Rootschatters
I have two questions regarding Thames Watermen:
Firstly, I have found a person of interest in the Transcript of the Binding Records (Cottrell). However the date of birth is blank. I understand that there were affidavits that gave the age and birthplace of the apprentice. If the DOB or YOB is missing does this mean the Affidavit is not available? Or if it is where would I find it?
Secondly, I have found a Waterman of the same name in the 1827 list whose YOB computes to circa 1788. If they are the same man, that would make him 16 when apprenticed in 1804, so that seems to be possible. However his release date is in 1816 which makes a twelve year period of being bound. Is this usual for Watermen?
Since the person I am tracing had a child in 1811 (mother named but marriage not yet found) would he have been able to marry while still bound? Or am I looking at two people with the same name?
I have not mentioned names as it is my understanding that the Binding List transcript is copyright.
Any insight re these questions would be welcome.
Thank you.
Venelow
Canada
Apprentices were usually bound and 14 years and became freeman at the age of 21 years having served 7 years.
They were not permitted to marry until they had served their apprenticeship.
Years ago I looked at these records on microfiche at The Guildhall Library. Most were fairly complete and most included date and parish of baptism however the apprentice I was looking for was listed on a scrap of paper with no baptism details. It took me years to find his baptism which was in Southwark not East London as I suspected.
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Thank you for your responses Steve, Tonepad and bearkat.
I have found the Erith BT's online at Family Search but, unlike some of their other online records, when you attempt to read them you are told to go to a Family History Centre. One can only view them online from a home computer if you are a church member and sign in as such. I don't know why they would set things up this way when other records are open to all.
Thanks Tony for confirming the actual process and agreeing that the "Parish Register's" instructions are misleading. (I though I was going crazy trying to make sense of it)
The chap I am looking at was married by 1811 so I am expecting a birth in the 1780s. It looks as if I will have to hire a researcher as I am not about to fly off to London.
Thank you bearkat for the information about the length of being bound and whether apprentices could marry before they were free. Other indentures I have seen for other trades usually did not allow the apprentice to marry before he completed his term. The man I am looking for was married by the end of 1811 as he had a child baptized in November that year. So he can't be the one in the Binding record transcript as he was bound in 1804 and his free date is 1816. (Unless he lied about the child being born in wedlock)
This still leaves the question of the length of the apprenticeship. Is it an error in the transcript? Maybe not because I have found other records in the 1700s that have more than seven years between the bound and free dates. viz. June 1788 - Mar 1798; Aug 1798 - Feb 1807; Apr 1758 - Sep 1767; Jan 1756 - Jul 1766; and, staggeringly, Sep 1720 - Apr 1740! These are just from the one family name I am working on.
Thank you all.
Cheers
Venelow
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Some apprenticeships seem to have lasted longer than 7 years probably due to spending time in the navy.
There's some interesting information here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kentsurnameuk/watermen.htm
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Many thanks Bearkat.
The information in the link is very useful. Being pressed into the Navy would make sense given the time frame. Napoleonic Wars.
I guess I should widen my search for the marriage I am looking for. Maybe not in Kent at all.
Cheers
Venelow
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Why not post his name? Rootschatters may be able to help find his marriage.
The trouble with Watermen is that could have met a girl from anywhere along or across the Thames and if he met her while he was in the Navy she could be from anywhere!
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Why not post his name? Rootschatters may be able to help find his marriage.
The trouble with Watermen is that could have met a girl from anywhere along or across the Thames and if he met her while he was in the Navy she could be from anywhere!
OK, after nearly two years without any success I am re-opening this thread. Bearkat suggested I should see if Rootschatters can find the marriage I have been searching for.
It is a marriage of James Munns to an Ann. Possibly Hannah, Anna or even Nancy. Maybe in Kent or possibly elsewhere in the area of London, Surrey, or Essex as James was a Waterman.
The James who married Susanna Lamburn has been ruled out.
I have Edward Munns baptized 14th April 1811 at St John's Erith, Kent. His parents are stated to be James Munns and Ann. This is from a transcript which I think was taken from the Bishop's Transcripts for Erith the actual Parish Records being consumed in a fire.
I have not seen the original BT of the baptism but as I have not been able to find a marriage of a James Munns/Muns/Munn/Mun to an Ann (or variants) I am seriously wondering if there may be an error in the mother's forename on the baptism record, either in the BTs or in the transcription of the BTs.
According to the marriage record, Edward Munns's father was James Munns who was a Waterman by occupation. I have found no other baptisms for children of James and Ann. I have not found an Ann Munns dying or a remarriage of James or conversely a James Munns dying and a remarriage of Ann.
For those who like a challenge, Good Luck.
For anyone who can easily access the original BTs I would be grateful if they can confirm the name of James's wife and Edward's mother as recorded in the BTs baptism records for Erith in 1811.
Sincerely
Venelow
Canada