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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: Penholder on Tuesday 26 September 17 17:46 BST (UK)
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The Nottingham Review and General Advertiser of 17th March 1848 reported on a murder trial where one of the witnesses was Eliza BRAMMER. She stated that at the time of the alleged murder her surname was HOLLINGSWORTH and she "had been married since last August".
I think she is 'my' Eliza HOLLINGWORTH whose 'husband' was John BRAMMAN. I have never identified their marriage and had come to suppose that it never took place. Now that I know Eliza stated it as a fact in court and gave a timeframe I feel more inclined to believe that there was a marriage but if so then, why can't I find any evidence for it? I've tried various different spellings for both bride and groom. Might the GRO indexes have missed it out?
Diana
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Lettice Parker Bramman mmn Hollingworth June qtr 1851 Radford 15 709
Further birth entry for same name and same mmn March qtr 1852
Daughter Emily born Sept qtr 1854
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This family including Lettice is on 1851, one child born 1844 is shown as Ann Billings Bramman, the only child I can find registered so far with the Christian names of Ann Billings is a child by the surname of Hodson born Auckland, still looking for more info on other children on 1851
By the way, have you traced them on any census
Louisa Maud
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It would appear that on 1841 Nottingham the family consists of
John aged 34
Senna aged 35
Marianne 10
William 8
John 4
Samuel 1
Senna died in 1844 Radford aged 37
1851 children following on
Elizabeth 10
Ann Billings 7
Lettice Parker 1
Elizabeth, Samuel and John have mother's maiden name as King whereas Lettice is shown as Hollingsworth
We are no nearer finding a marriage, is it possible there wasn't a marriage but in name only
Louisa Maud
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Was Eliza previously married?
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Births September qtr 1843
Elizabeth Billings Bramman Radford 15 607 mmn King
No John Bramman marriage between 1844-1851 anywhere
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Hi CaroleW and Louisa Maud
Thank you both for your replies. It is just the marriage I'm looking for. I already have the other information and more regarding the family. If it weren't that Eliza had explained her change of surname by saying she had married since the previous August I would just have settled for the fact that there had been no marriage. Perhaps that's still what I have to do although I'm hoping otherwise!
Kind regards,
Diana
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something interesting which may or not be of any use at all
Thomas Billings Bramman
baptised 07/03/1819, St Mary Nottingham
parents John and Elizabeth
So, is Billings a family name?
I think a baptism search is called for
No nearer to a finding a marriage
Louisa Maud
Sorry crossed in sending with Diana so you can ignore all of this,
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Hi Louisa maud
Thank you for your continued interest.
Yes, Billings was a name from John BRAMMAN's side of the family. The child enumerated as 7 year old Ann Billings BRAMMAN in 1851 should have been Elizabeth Billings BRAMMAN. Eliza had an illegitimate daughter called Elizabeth HOLLINGWORTH - enumerated as HOLLING. My best guess is that either the enumerator was confused by two children of the same name or the younger Elizabeth, who was from John's marriage to Senna KING, was called Ann to avoid confusion.
Regards,
Diana
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You seem to have pretty well tied this all up apart from the assumed marriage
John married Senna King at St Mary's Nottingham 1830, perhaps this was the family church, is it possible to search the church records, he was a widower so he would be free to marry
Happy Hunting
Louisa Maud
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The FHS CD has transcribed John's first wife's name as Jenna or Jemma and gives these baptisms at Notts St Mary; John is listed as a lacemaker and the abode as Count St for each:
1830 09 26 Mary Ann
1833 06 09 William
1837 08 07 John
(The wife's name is transcribed as Senna for her marriage and burial, details as supplied prev by Louisa Maud)
There's nothing listed with Eliza as mother until 1855, at Sneinton St Stephen (which is in the Radford district) - family in Eldon St and John still a lacemaker
1855 10 21 Samuel
I can't see any possible marriages between John and Eliza, no matter how I try to warp the spelling of the names!
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Hi Louisa Maud and Annie65115
Thank you both for your further contributions. I knew John was a lacemaker but hadn't got that info from the online baptism transcripts. As for Samuel, his mother was really Senna. He was baptised as an adult, a year before his marriage in St. Stephen's Church.
Kind regards,
Diana
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Have you had a chance to actually look at their local church records for a marriage, or getting in touch with the local register office
You might just have to think there wasn't a marriage at all, specially as at the moment we don't know if Eliza was already married, 1841 might be a clue
My gt grandmother never married my Gt grandfather after having at least 9 children together, she then left him and married another man, think there was a few porky pies told at the time
Louisa Maud
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Hi Louisa Maud
No, I haven't seen the actual church registers. All my information comes from online transcripts. I think you're right that contacting the local register office would be a good idea. It's just possible the marriage has fallen through the cracks.
I don't know if Eliza was married, but assume not since she was going by her maiden name before John BRAMMAN came on the scene. She did have an illegitimate daughter whose birth was registered in Q1 1841 (10 year old Elizabeth Holling BRAMMAN of the 1851 census and 20 year old Elizabeth BRADLEY of the 1861 census). I have not located them together in the 1841 census although I may have found Eliza on her own - having problems with Ancestry today although FindMyPast OK, just sometimes the search results seem better on Ancestry for the census.
I also have great grandparents on another line who had a dozen children without ever bothering to marry. It was probably a lot more common than we might think.
Diana