RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: MattD30 on Sunday 01 October 17 22:57 BST (UK)
-
The attached image is the first part of the 1514 Will of John Essheherst of Ashford [described in the Wills index as "Ashford Beaver" (see Canterbury Probate Records online index). I would be very grateful if anyone could let me know
a) let me know the date this was made (and confirm the residence of the testator)
b) the names of any other people mentioned .
Many Thanks
Matt
-
Written on 8 October 1512. The testator was of the parish of Essheford in the county of Kent. No-one else is named in this opening section (apart from St Anne, the church’s dedicatee).
-
Written on 8 October 1512. The testator was of the parish of Essheford in the county of Kent. No-one else is named in this opening section (apart from St Anne, the church’s dedicatee).
Hi Bookbox
Many thanks for that. Upon looking at the first page of the Will in more detail I think other people are named further down.
Matt
-
These two images show the last part of John Essherst's Will and the date of probate. It would be great if someone could confirm the names of any executor/executrix, overseers, or witnesses etc named in the first image and let me know the probate date in the second image (and any other useful details).
According to the Canterbury Cathedral Probate website the Will was proved in 1514, but it also says it was written in 1514, so clarification of the probate date on here would be useful.
Matt
-
I am useless at reading these old wills, but I do have a question. Is it just coincidence that the fancy bit looks very much like a man's profile, (wearing one of those big fancy powdered wigs)?
This bit:
-
I thought it very arty & creative as the face also looks to be drawn within the letter 'J'
Annie
-
Second image:
The probate date is 12 December 1514.
It's a minimal probate clause with only the very basics.
The administration was granted to the executor named in the same testament.
-
First image:
If this is the end of the will, it doesn't end with the usual appointments as mentioned in your request.
He is talking about the minor age of what I think are his children.
As I read it*, he mentions a Johanne his wife, a Johannus (John) his son and a Johanne his daughter.
In the last Item he mentions a Henry Essherst.
The context relates to custody and governance, and minor age. A boy and a wife are mentioned.
* DISCLAIMER: Some or all of this may be quite wrong.
-
1st extract
And the residue of all the profits of my lands & tenements should remain with Johanna/Joan my wife, if she is then living, during the term of minority of the aforesaid John my son & Johanna/Joan my daughter. Item I will that my children should remain in the custody and governance of Henry Essherst or his assigns during the whole of the aforesaid period of (their) minority, if my wife should fail.
2nd extract
As in reply #6 above. The word exec(uto)rib(us) shows that there is more than one executor, but they are not named in this snippet.
ADDED – the decorated initial is surely intentional. An ‘artistic’ clerk in the probate registry? You can sometimes find ‘pointing fingers’ in the margin, decorated with rings and bracelets, to highlight significant parts of a will. With all the legal verbiage to plough through, such guides can be quite helpful.
-
I am useless at reading these old wills, but I do have a question. Is it just coincidence that the fancy bit looks very much like a man's profile, (wearing one of those big fancy powdered wigs)?
This bit:
Hi
I hadn't noticed this at all but I see what you mean. It could be a coincidence or perhaps this was a basic attempt at a portrait of John.
Obviously both ideas are guesses and I don't think we can prove either idea but this is an interesting feature of the Will.
Matt
-
First image:
If this is the end of the will, it doesn't end with the usual appointments as mentioned in your request.
He is talking about the minor age of what I think are his children.
As I read it*, he mentions a Johanne his wife, a Johannus (John) his son and a Johanne his daughter.
In the last Item he mentions a Henry Essherst.
The context relates to custody and governance, and minor age. A boy and a wife are mentioned.
* DISCLAIMER: Some or all of this may be quite wrong.
Thanks for this and the details of the probate date. I might have chopped a bit off at the end when I cropped the image in order to post it but I think I've got it all here. If the will ends differently than usually expected then I wonder why this is.
Anyhow many thanks for the update.
Matt
-
1st extract
And the residue of all the profits of my lands & tenements should remain with Johanna/Joan my wife, if she is then living, during the term of minority of the aforesaid John my son & Johanna/Joan my daughter. Item I will that my children should remain in the custody and governance of Henry Essherst or his assigns during the whole of the aforesaid period of (their) minority, if my wife should fail.
2nd extract
As in reply #6 above. The word exec(uto)rib(us) shows that there is more than one executor, but they are not named in this snippet.
ADDED – the decorated initial is surely intentional. An ‘artistic’ clerk in the probate registry? You can sometimes find ‘pointing fingers’ in the margin, decorated with rings and bracelets, to highlight significant parts of a will. With all the legal verbiage to plough through, such guides can be quite helpful.
Many thanks for those updates which are very useful. I am still trying to work out what the relationship between John Esseherst and Henry Esseherst is. I think they might be brothers but I am not certain. There is a Henry Esseherst of Kingsnorth who left a Will dated 1530 and I'll look at this next to see if I can find a link.
I've also got the 1517 Will of John Essherst of Ashford and I wonder if this is the son of this John. I'll post some of the images soon. There is also a Thomas Asherst of Ashford who left a Will dated 1518 and I wonder if he is a relative as well.
My ancestor was Alice Essheherst (or Asshehurst) and hopefully by going through these Wills I will be able to build up a picture of her parents and family. I did think that this John was her father but as she is not mentioned in the Will, I am now not certain. My theory that her father was this John was based only on info sent to me in an email several years ago which drew on some online resources and trees, however I have always been uncertain about this connection as no evidence was provided.
Alice's father might be this John's son (also John), or she might be the daughter of a different Essheherst (perhaps Henry).
Whatever the case I am pretty certain these people are related as the surname is relatively unusual and they all appear to be in the same area of Kent.
Thanks again for the help and suggestions
Matt
-
Hi
I'm attaching two smalls snippet from the first page of this Will and I'm hoping someone can confirm some details and names in this piece.
Snippet 1
In the second line down it looks like there is a reference to the name "John Geoffrey" and in the fourth line there seems to be a reference to "Robert Sprott" at the end. In the next line I think there is a reference to "Alice Geoffrey" and at the end of the snippet I think there is a reference to "Agnes Bradshaw". All of the names are in Latin so I might be wrong.
Can anyone confirm my thoughts or correct me and let me know if any relationships or other details about them are given.
Snippet 2
In this second image in the second line it looks like there is a reference to a "John Edmond" followed by another reference to "Agnes Bradshaw" in the next line. At the end of line I think there is a reference to "John Stykke" or possibly "John Stybbe". Can anyone confirm these names and again let me know if any relationships are provided here.
Lastly can someone clarify the names given at the end (I think these are the executors). I can see there is a reference to Henry Esseherst of Kingsnorth, but I am not sure of the next person. The first name is clearly William but I'm not sure on the surname, it looks like it starts with F.
Many Thanks
Matt
-
Names in Snippet 1:
'John Geffrey' - note no "O" in it.
Rob(er)t Dursten - the long curl on the tail of the 'n' may mean another letter, or it may just be a flourish.
Rob(er)t Sprott
Alice Geffrey
Rob(er)t Wat
Helene Alford
Agneti (Agnes) Braban - similar curl on the tail of the last letter.
Snippet 2:
Rob(er)t Rydar
Will(iam) Cotley
Johne Edmond
Agneti Braban
John Stykker
Henry Essherst of Kingesno(r)th & Will(ia)m Fryght of Esshford executors. There is a line over 'Fryght' which normally means one or more missing letters, but I don't know what they might be.
Not a Latin scholar, but it look to me as if many of these just give the name and the amount of money of the bequest.
John Geffrey and Robert Durstend servants? - serventi? written after their names
-
As goldie has suggested, I think John Geffrey and Robert Dursten are his servants.
I believe the words are: s(er)vienti meo
Also, I believe it is Gotley rather than Cotley. Compare the initial letter to Geffrey.
-
Just to add to what is above, the bequests are not to William Gotley and John Edmond themselves, but to their wives (unnamed).
Also, there is nothing for Robert Sprott - the bequest is for repairing ‘the dangerous footpath next to the gate of Robert Sprott’.
-
Names in Snippet 1:
'John Geffrey' - note no "O" in it.
Rob(er)t Dursten - the long curl on the tail of the 'n' may mean another letter, or it may just be a flourish.
Rob(er)t Sprott
Alice Geffrey
Rob(er)t Wat
Helene Alford
Agneti (Agnes) Braban - similar curl on the tail of the last letter.
Snippet 2:
Rob(er)t Rydar
Will(iam) Cotley
Johne Edmond
Agneti Braban
John Stykker
Henry Essherst of Kingesno(r)th & Will(ia)m Fryght of Esshford executors. There is a line over 'Fryght' which normally means one or more missing letters, but I don't know what they might be.
Not a Latin scholar, but it look to me as if many of these just give the name and the amount of money of the bequest.
John Geffrey and Robert Durstend servants? - serventi? written after their names
Many thanks for those. Having some names makes the Will a bit easier to read somehow and now I have a list of the people mentioned in it I hope to be able to build up a better picture of the Esshehersts.
Matt
-
As goldie has suggested, I think John Geffrey and Robert Dursten are his servants.
I believe the words are: s(er)vienti meo
Also, I believe it is Gotley rather than Cotley. Compare the initial letter to Geffrey.
Hi
I think you're right, the term does seem to make sense.
Matt
-
Just to add to what is above, the bequests are not to William Gotley and John Edmond themselves, but to their wives (unnamed).
Also, there is nothing for Robert Sprott - the bequest is for repairing ‘the dangerous footpath next to the gate of Robert Sprott’.
Thanks for that.
Matt
-
For what it's worth, Henry Essheherst appears in another will in the same area and time period, also in the context of being assigned a sum to mend highways:
First paragraph:
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk52/page%2005.htm
-
For what it's worth, Henry Essheherst appears in another will in the same area and time period, also in the context of being assigned a sum to mend highways:
First paragraph:
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Bk52/page%2005.htm
Hiya
Yes you're right. I've seen that Will myself and find it interesting to read. Perhaps Henry Essheherst (and others) were in charge of looking after the roads in some way.
Matt
-
Hi Matt
Im a new member to Rootschat. But I am also searching on the Essherst/Asherst line in Ashford and Kingsnorth, which are my direct line ancestors. I also have been wading through John Asherst's will of 1493 and Henry Esseherst's will of 1463. I believe John is the son of Henry. As to Alice who you say is your ancestor, John Asherst mentions four daughters in his will, Isabelle, Bennett, Alys and Elizabeth. Also, John Asherst of Ashford (will 1512) mentions a number of sisters, Isabelle, Gennett (Bennett), Elisie (Elizabeth), Alice and Marion (the last two I believe are the children of his mother, Elena, by her first husband, Peter Peryn), so that would make him the son of John Asherst (will 1493). It is unclear as to whether John Asherst (will 1493) had a daughter Alys by his wife Elena or whether he refers to his step-daughter, or both, as they are mentioned separately in his will. I am struggling with some of the links in the family and wonder if your research could help me.
Thanks, Gerelle
-
Hi Matt
Im a new member to Rootschat. But I am also searching on the Essherst/Asherst line in Ashford and Kingsnorth, which are my direct line ancestors. I also have been wading through John Asherst's will of 1493 and Henry Esseherst's will of 1463. I believe John is the son of Henry. As to Alice who you say is your ancestor, John Asherst mentions four daughters in his will, Isabelle, Bennett, Alys and Elizabeth. Also, John Asherst of Ashford (will 1512) mentions a number of sisters, Isabelle, Gennett (Bennett), Elisie (Elizabeth), Alice and Marion (the last two I believe are the children of his mother, Elena, by her first husband, Peter Peryn), so that would make him the son of John Asherst (will 1493). It is unclear as to whether John Asherst (will 1493) had a daughter Alys by his wife Elena or whether he refers to his step-daughter, or both, as they are mentioned separately in his will. I am struggling with some of the links in the family and wonder if your research could help me.
Thanks, Gerelle
Hi Gerelle (that's an unusual name btw)
Your message came as a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't looked at the Esshurst/Ash[h]urst family for a few years now.
I have copies of the wills you mentioned (Henry 1463 and John 1512) as well as several others but I am struggling with some of the writing myself. Do you have a transcript of those two and if so can you send me a copy?
I have made notes on the 1524 Will of William Assheherste of Great Chart and in this he mentions the following people, his daughter Alice, his sons Henry and Thomas, his wife Elizabeth, and his cousin Thomas son of his brother Thomas.
Hopefully we can work this family out between us. I look forward to hearing from you and I'll send you more details tomorrow.
Best Wishes
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
I was really surprised to get such a quick response, as I knew it was late at night in England when I sent the message. I live in Brisbane, Australia. Anyway, I dont have full transcripts of the wills, just what information I could glean from reading each of them. I have read about 26 wills relating to the Asherst family in Ashford, Kingsnorth and Great Chart but am really having difficulty putting the family together.
The earliest will I have is Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth 1464 (in latin). In his will he mentions that he has a wife and daughter, both unamed. Richard, Ralph and John Taylor are executors and Thomas Assheherst is witness.
Henry Esseherst of Great Chart Will 1463 (in latin). Has lands in Great Chart and Kingsnorth. Not sure but is his wife Agatha? Children are John Thomas, Johnit (Jennet), Thomasine and possibly Henry and Agatha? Could really do with some help on this will.
Thomas Assheherst of Kingsnorth Will 1473 (in latin). Wife is Helesie; children are Thomas, Edward, Helesie and Anne. John Ayssherst of Great Chart is mentioned and John Pye is witness.
John Asherst of Ashford Will 1493 (latin and english). Wife is Elena or Elene who was previously married to Peter Peryn by who she had children, Marion Peryn, Alice Peryn and possibly Nicholas Peryn. Children of John Asherst are Isabelle Benedict (Bennett), William (not 18 in 1493 and inherits lands in Ashford), John (not 18 in 1493 and inherits lands in Kingsnorth), Alys and Elizabeth. Also mentioned are William Cloke of Kingsnorth, Johan At Wode (Attwood) and Thomas Asherst of Kingsnorth who is executor.
Elena Essherst of Ashford Will 1498 (widow of John Asherst above). She mentions her son, John Peryn, his wife Alice and their children, Marion and Alice. She also mentions her father, Clement Gifford, Thomas Essherst of Kingsnorth, William Fryght of Ashford and John, Thomas and William Farvo (Parvo). I should re-read this will as there may be more information.
I also have copies of the wills of John Asherst of Ashford 1512, Thomas Essherst of Ashford 1512, Thomas Asherst of Great Chart 1500, John Essherst of Ashford 1517/8, Thomas Asherst of Ashford 1518, Harry Essheherst Snr. of Kingsnorth 1530, Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth 1540 and William Assheharste of Great Chart 1524 and several more later wills.
But I do have a few questions which I hope you might have an answer.
John Asherst (Will 1493) mentions a son William who inherits lands in Ashford. However, I have not been able to find a will for this William. His brother, John Asherst who supposedly inherits lands in Kingsnorth from his father, is of Bevyr in Ashford according to his will of 1512.
Is Bevyr a specific place in Ashford or part of a family estate?
That's probably enough for now. I have drafted up a rough pedigree, but as I said, am having trouble putting it all together, to make the dates and names all fit. Plus missing a few!!
My line comes through Erasmus Elmestone who married Elisabeth Asherst, daug of John Asherst of Ashford (Will 1583) and Elizabeth Asherst of Ashford (Will 1613). Im having trouble connecting this John into the earlier Asherst family. Seem to be missing a generation.
Look forward to your reply.
Gerelle.
-
Is Bevyr a specific place in Ashford or part of a family estate?
If you scroll down to page 10 of the pdf (link below), titled Notes and Queries, the second paragraph has a theory on the location of Bevyr "of which, in 1512, John Essherst of Essheford willed that his feoffees should make 'a legal estate' to his son John when he attained the age of 22 years."
https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.026%20-%201904/026-14.pdf
-
Hi Matt,
I was really surprised to get such a quick response, as I knew it was late at night in England when I sent the message. I live in Brisbane, Australia. Anyway, I dont have full transcripts of the wills, just what information I could glean from reading each of them. I have read about 26 wills relating to the Asherst family in Ashford, Kingsnorth and Great Chart but am really having difficulty putting the family together.
The earliest will I have is Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth 1464 (in latin). In his will he mentions that he has a wife and daughter, both unamed. Richard, Ralph and John Taylor are executors and Thomas Assheherst is witness.
Henry Esseherst of Great Chart Will 1463 (in latin). Has lands in Great Chart and Kingsnorth. Not sure but is his wife Agatha? Children are John Thomas, Johnit (Jennet), Thomasine and possibly Henry and Agatha? Could really do with some help on this will.
Thomas Assheherst of Kingsnorth Will 1473 (in latin). Wife is Helesie; children are Thomas, Edward, Helesie and Anne. John Ayssherst of Great Chart is mentioned and John Pye is witness.
John Asherst of Ashford Will 1493 (latin and english). Wife is Elena or Elene who was previously married to Peter Peryn by who she had children, Marion Peryn, Alice Peryn and possibly Nicholas Peryn. Children of John Asherst are Isabelle Benedict (Bennett), William (not 18 in 1493 and inherits lands in Ashford), John (not 18 in 1493 and inherits lands in Kingsnorth), Alys and Elizabeth. Also mentioned are William Cloke of Kingsnorth, Johan At Wode (Attwood) and Thomas Asherst of Kingsnorth who is executor.
Elena Essherst of Ashford Will 1498 (widow of John Asherst above). She mentions her son, John Peryn, his wife Alice and their children, Marion and Alice. She also mentions her father, Clement Gifford, Thomas Essherst of Kingsnorth, William Fryght of Ashford and John, Thomas and William Farvo (Parvo). I should re-read this will as there may be more information.
I also have copies of the wills of John Asherst of Ashford 1512, Thomas Essherst of Ashford 1512, Thomas Asherst of Great Chart 1500, John Essherst of Ashford 1517/8, Thomas Asherst of Ashford 1518, Harry Essheherst Snr. of Kingsnorth 1530, Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth 1540 and William Assheharste of Great Chart 1524 and several more later wills.
But I do have a few questions which I hope you might have an answer.
John Asherst (Will 1493) mentions a son William who inherits lands in Ashford. However, I have not been able to find a will for this William. His brother, John Asherst who supposedly inherits lands in Kingsnorth from his father, is of Bevyr in Ashford according to his will of 1512.
Is Bevyr a specific place in Ashford or part of a family estate?
That's probably enough for now. I have drafted up a rough pedigree, but as I said, am having trouble putting it all together, to make the dates and names all fit. Plus missing a few!!
My line comes through Erasmus Elmestone who married Elisabeth Asherst, daug of John Asherst of Ashford (Will 1583) and Elizabeth Asherst of Ashford (Will 1613). Im having trouble connecting this John into the earlier Asherst family. Seem to be missing a generation.
Look forward to your reply.
Gerelle.
Hi Gerelle
Yes it was quite late when I posted that reply to your message, I'm usually up late reading or researching.
I am at the National Archives at Kew nr London now (it's just gone 1.15pm) so I guess you'll get this later.
That was quite a bit of info you posted but it does add up with what I have. I will send you another message later with the details of my link to the family, but in the meantime you might like to look at the following which is another post of mine:
Help with 15th century Wills
I've posted several sections from various Assherst/Asshurst/Essheherst/Eshhurst [etc] wills on there and there has been a lot of response. Hopefully by combining what we know we can put the tree together.
Anyhow that's all for now but expect a bigger reply later.
Best Wishes from England
Matt
-
Is Bevyr a specific place in Ashford or part of a family estate?
If you scroll down to page 10 of the pdf (link below), titled Notes and Queries, the second paragraph has a theory on the location of Bevyr "of which, in 1512, John Essherst of Essheford willed that his feoffees should make 'a legal estate' to his son John when he attained the age of 22 years."
https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.026%20-%201904/026-14.pdf
Thanks bbart for this information. I have looked up Beaver House in Ashford to find that it is a Grade II listed building on Hampden Road, Ashford, a late medieval timber-framed house.
Thanks again, Gerelle.
-
Hi Gerrelle
Hope you are well. Here is a bit more info for you on my Essherst/Asshurst connection.
My 13x great grandmother is Alice Eshehurst who married Thomas Den [or Denne] of Kingston presumably sometime in the late 15th century.
I know that they had the following children but only know approximately when one was born.
Thomas - date of birth not known
William - born about 1499 in Kingston and died in October 1572 - my ancestor
James - date of birth not known - he died in 1574
I'm putting basic tree together and will send that to you in the next day or two.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Matt
-
Hi Gerelle
Yes it was quite late when I posted that reply to your message, I'm usually up late reading or researching.
I am at the National Archives at Kew nr London now (it's just gone 1.15pm) so I guess you'll get this later.
That was quite a bit of info you posted but it does add up with what I have. I will send you another message later with the details of my link to the family, but in the meantime you might like to look at the following which is another post of mine:
Help with 15th century Wills
I've posted several sections from various Assherst/Asshurst/Essheherst/Eshhurst [etc] wills on there and there has been a lot of response. Hopefully by combining what we know we can put the tree together.
Anyhow that's all for now but expect a bigger reply later.
Best Wishes from England
Matt
Hi Matt,
I have had a look at the posts under "Help with 15th century wills" and was grateful to Bookbox and Horselydown for the transcripts of both John and Ellen's wills and their comments. I note, that I mistakenly thought from Ellen's will that Clement Gyfford of Ashford was Ellen's father. His will is dated 1507 which could confirm it or not.
Also, I note the will of Peter Peryn dated 1474/6. Whether Ellen was married firstly to Peter Peryn or if he is her son, perhaps a look at that will would help with that.
Re: the will of John Essherst of Ashford 1493
The Thomas Essherst/Assherst the elder is the brother of John. The will of Henry Esseherst of Great Chart 1463 names his sons as John and Thomas. (It would be really helpful to have this will translated from latin into english as well if you can request it). And Thomas, the younger, is Thomas's son. This is confirmed on page three of the will.
I'm not sure who the Henry Assherst and Thomas Assherst of Kingsnorth are either. There is a Henry mentioned in the Will of Henry Esseherst of Great Chart 1463, but Im not sure if he is his son or not. If it is, then that would take care of the Henry. As to Thomas Assheherst of Kingsnorth, I note that he was both a witness to Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth Will 1464 and executor to John Esseherst of Ashford will 1493. However, no relationship is given in either.
I believe that the will of Thomas Assheherst of Kingsnorth dated 1473 is that of Thomas Essherst, the elder, brother of John and not of the unknown Thomas Assherst of Kingsnorth mentioned above. There are a few reasons for that which are a bit tricky to explain without the wills and a pedigree chart in front of you, so you can see the relationships.
Also I note that the transcript of John Essherst's will ends at "Bilham" at the bottom of the second page. There is a third page to this will which, as stated above, mentions that Thomas Assherst the younger is the son of Thomas Assherst the elder who is his (ie. John's) brother. Also, John names his daughters, Elys, Elizabeth and Benet. If you do not have this page, I could attempt a transcript of it for you. I believe the Elys (Alice) might be the ancestor you are looking for.
Am looking forward to receiving your next message.
Gerelle.
-
Hi Gerelle
Can you send me a basic family tree showing how these people all link up? I think that would help working out the various relationships. Have you got a transcript of Peter Peryn's Will that you can send me at all?
I have translations [Latin] and transcriptions of the following Wills
Ellen Essherst of Ashford [1498]
John Essherst of Ashford [1492]
John Essheherst of Ashford Bever [1514] [extracts only]
Let me know if you want to see these.
I look forward to hearing from and seeing if we can get this family sorted out between us.
Best Wishes
Matt
-
Hi Gerelle
Yes it was quite late when I posted that reply to your message, I'm usually up late reading or researching.
I am at the National Archives at Kew nr London now (it's just gone 1.15pm) so I guess you'll get this later.
That was quite a bit of info you posted but it does add up with what I have. I will send you another message later with the details of my link to the family, but in the meantime you might like to look at the following which is another post of mine:
Help with 15th century Wills
I've posted several sections from various Assherst/Asshurst/Essheherst/Eshhurst [etc] wills on there and there has been a lot of response. Hopefully by combining what we know we can put the tree together.
Anyhow that's all for now but expect a bigger reply later.
Best Wishes from England
Matt
Hi Matt,
I have had a look at the posts under "Help with 15th century wills" and was grateful to Bookbox and Horselydown for the transcripts of both John and Ellen's wills and their comments. I note, that I mistakenly thought from Ellen's will that Clement Gyfford of Ashford was Ellen's father. His will is dated 1507 which could confirm it or not.
Also, I note the will of Peter Peryn dated 1474/6. Whether Ellen was married firstly to Peter Peryn or if he is her son, perhaps a look at that will would help with that.
Re: the will of John Essherst of Ashford 1493
The Thomas Essherst/Assherst the elder is the brother of John. The will of Henry Esseherst of Great Chart 1463 names his sons as John and Thomas. (It would be really helpful to have this will translated from latin into english as well if you can request it). And Thomas, the younger, is Thomas's son. This is confirmed on page three of the will.
I'm not sure who the Henry Assherst and Thomas Assherst of Kingsnorth are either. There is a Henry mentioned in the Will of Henry Esseherst of Great Chart 1463, but Im not sure if he is his son or not. If it is, then that would take care of the Henry. As to Thomas Assheherst of Kingsnorth, I note that he was both a witness to Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth Will 1464 and executor to John Esseherst of Ashford will 1493. However, no relationship is given in either.
I believe that the will of Thomas Assheherst of Kingsnorth dated 1473 is that of Thomas Essherst, the elder, brother of John and not of the unknown Thomas Assherst of Kingsnorth mentioned above. There are a few reasons for that which are a bit tricky to explain without the wills and a pedigree chart in front of you, so you can see the relationships.
Also I note that the transcript of John Essherst's will ends at "Bilham" at the bottom of the second page. There is a third page to this will which, as stated above, mentions that Thomas Assherst the younger is the son of Thomas Assherst the elder who is his (ie. John's) brother. Also, John names his daughters, Elys, Elizabeth and Benet. If you do not have this page, I could attempt a transcript of it for you. I believe the Elys (Alice) might be the ancestor you are looking for.
Am looking forward to receiving your next message.
Gerelle.
Hi Gerelle
I appear to be missing the third page of the 1493 Will of John Essherst. My copy of the translation/transcription ends at "lyeng at Bilh(a)m..."
Do you have a copy of the Will which you can send me? I have only seen the transcription so seeing the original would be handy.
Also if you can send a transcription (even a partial one) of this third page it would be appreciated as it would help me a lot. You may well be right about Elys being my "Alice".
Best Wishes
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
I am working on a transcription of the third page for you at the moment. Will send when I am finished.
I dont have a copy of the will of Peter Peryn sorry. Would have to order it, but am not at that stage at the moment where I need to.
I am still working on a family tree and how they fit together.
Would really appreciate it, if someone was able to translate the second part of Henry Essheherst's Will of 1463. Being in Latin and also difficult to read makes it somewhat impossible for me to make sense of it. I really would like to know in the second line does it read "edwd (Edward) henry (Henry) ... agatha (Agatha) and what their relation to Henry Essherst may be and also, in the third line "Agatha" and is she his wife or the agatha mentioned in line 2.
I attach here the full copy of his will.
Cheers, Gerelle
-
Hi Matt,
I am working on a transcription of the third page for you at the moment. Will send when I am finished.
I dont have a copy of the will of Peter Peryn sorry. Would have to order it, but am not at that stage at the moment where I need to.
I am still working on a family tree and how they fit together.
Would really appreciate it, if someone was able to translate the second part of Henry Essheherst's Will of 1463. Being in Latin and also difficult to read makes it somewhat impossible for me to make sense of it. I really would like to know in the second line does it read "edwd (Edward) henry (Henry) ... agatha (Agatha) and what their relation to Henry Essherst may be and also, in the third line "Agatha" and is she his wife or the agatha mentioned in line 2.
I attach here the full copy of his will.
Cheers, Gerelle
Hi Gerelle
You caught me just before I head off to bed lol! I am just in the middle of making some notes on various Wills I have been looking at.
It would be great to have a transcription of the third page so I know what the whole thing says, so thank you for working on it. I look forward to reading the transcription when you're finished.
I think I have some notes on Peter's Will. I can send you them if you like. I am happy to get a copy if it will be of use.
Anyhow that's all for now. Bed soon, work tomorrow.
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
I am working on a transcription of the third page for you at the moment. Will send when I am finished.
I dont have a copy of the will of Peter Peryn sorry. Would have to order it, but am not at that stage at the moment where I need to.
I am still working on a family tree and how they fit together.
Would really appreciate it, if someone was able to translate the second part of Henry Essheherst's Will of 1463. Being in Latin and also difficult to read makes it somewhat impossible for me to make sense of it. I really would like to know in the second line does it read "edwd (Edward) henry (Henry) ... agatha (Agatha) and what their relation to Henry Essherst may be and also, in the third line "Agatha" and is she his wife or the agatha mentioned in line 2.
I attach here the full copy of his will.
Cheers, Gerelle
It's doubtful anybody who could translate this will see it here at the end of this initial post - page 4 I think.
It would be better if you started a new topic with it on the Handwriting Deciphering Board.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/
You will need to make a bigger sized scan.
The one you have posted here is only about 200kbs, and is not good enough resolution to be able to read it - it becomes pixalated when you zoom in.
You are allowed up to 500 kbs for any one image to attach.
-
Hi Gerelle
I think goldie61 make a good point. I just tried to download the image and had to zoom in a lot to read anything. I think it would definitely help us both if you could post a bigger image (maybe in two halves). If you can send me a copy by email as well that would be handy.
Matt
-
Thanks for that tip Goldie. I have started a new topic "Help with Asherst Wills" and have attached the will in four parts, so hopefully that will help.
Matt,
Here is the start of the transcript of the third page of John Essherst's will of 1493, as follows:
"...in the parish of Kingsnorth aforesaid unto the time the said John my son cometh to the age of 22 years and when he cometh to that age then I will my said overseers deliver a sufficient and lawful estate in fee simple of and in all the foresaid lands and tenements afore rehersed(?) within the parishes aforesaid except (before except)(?) to the foresaid John my son to be delivered to him his heirs and assigns forever. Also I will that immediately after the decease of Elene my wife my said overseers deliver to the said John my son my said messuages and all my said lands and tenements at Billam (Billingham) aforesaid to him his heirs and assigns forever. Also if it happen any of my said two sons do die within their foresaid age of 22 years without heirs of their bodies lawfully begotten then his part to remain to my son that so outliveth. Also if both my said sons die within the age of 22 years foresaid without lawful heirs of their bodies then I will that my said overseers suffer Thomas Assherst my brother to take the fines and profit of all my lands and tenements lying and being at Hernwood during his life if it may be spared unsold. And after the decease of the said Thomas Assherst I wiill that my said overseers deliver a lawful estate to Thomas Assherst the younger son of Thomas my brother of and in all my foresaid place and lands at Hernwood to him his heirs and assigns forever."
I will send the second half of the transcript when I have finished.
Cheers, Gerelle.
-
Thanks for that tip Goldie. I have started a new topic "Help with Asherst Wills" and have attached the will in four parts, so hopefully that will help.
Matt,
Here is the start of the transcript of the third page of John Essherst's will of 1493, as follows:
"...in the parish of Kingsnorth aforesaid unto the time the said John my son cometh to the age of 22 years and when he cometh to that age then I will my said overseers deliver a sufficient and lawful estate in fee simple of and in all the foresaid lands and tenements afore rehersed(?) within the parishes aforesaid except (before except)(?) to the foresaid John my son to be delivered to him his heirs and assigns forever. Also I will that immediately after the decease of Elene my wife my said overseers deliver to the said John my son my said messuages and all my said lands and tenements at Billam (Billingham) aforesaid to him his heirs and assigns forever. Also if it happen any of my said two sons do die within their foresaid age of 22 years without heirs of their bodies lawfully begotten then his part to remain to my son that so outliveth. Also if both my said sons die within the age of 22 years foresaid without lawful heirs of their bodies then I will that my said overseers suffer Thomas Assherst my brother to take the fines and profit of all my lands and tenements lying and being at Hernwood during his life if it may be spared unsold. And after the decease of the said Thomas Assherst I wiill that my said overseers deliver a lawful estate to Thomas Assherst the younger son of Thomas my brother of and in all my foresaid place and lands at Hernwood to him his heirs and assigns forever."
I will send the second half of the transcript when I have finished.
Cheers, Gerelle.
Hi Gerelle
Thanks for that transcript I will add it to what I have so far and look forward to seeing your next bit.
I agree with you about Ellen having probably being married before. I also think it is possible that John was previously married as well.
The parishes of Kingsnorth and Rodmersham get mentioned quite a bit in both the Wills of John and Ellen and I suspect there are family links with those areas. The following probate records might be useful:
John Peryn of Rodmersham - 1509 Act
Richard Peryn of Rodmersham - 1474 Will
William Peryn of Rodmersham - 1482 Will
Stephen Peryn of Wye - 1518 Will
We know that mentions her son John Peryn whom she names as one of the executors of her Will.
In John's Will he mentions "Alice Peryn daughter of Peter Peryn" as well as "William Cloke of Kingsnorth", "Nicholas Peryn" and "Clement Gifford". Clement is a witness to Ellen's Will and I think Nicholas my have been a witness too.
I think that Ellen was previously married to Peter Peryn based on the following.
In his 1492 Will, John Essherst makes a bequest of 40s to "Alice Peryn, daughter of Peter Peryn" and in her Will of 1498 Ellen refers to her daughter "Alice Peryn" as well as her son "John Peryn"
There is a 1476 Will for a Peter Peryn of Biddenden which might be worth looking at.
The witnesses to Ellen's will included William Cloke, Clement Gyfford, William Fryght and Robert Sprott and William Cloke and Clement get mentioned in John's Will.
It's possible that these Wills relate to these people:
William Cloke of Kingsnorth - 1509
Clement Gyfford of Ashford - 1507
William Fright of Ashford - 1537
Robert Sprott of Ashford - 1513
I don't know if they are related but even if they're not they might give info about John and Ellen.
That's all for now but I'll let you know if I get any more ideas and I look forward to reading the next part of your transcript of John's will.
Best Wishes
Matt
-
Hi Gerelle
Further to my last posting I have found an extract of the details of the 1475 will of Peter Peryn which establishes that he wasn't the first husband of Ellen Essherst. Peter mentions the following people:
Wife Agnes
Executors : William Harry & Stephen Peryn
Feoffes: Robert Wylock, William Harry & Stephen Edynden
Brothers, Laurence Peryn & Stephen Peryn
William Peryn son of Richard Peryn
There is no mention of daughters Alice or Marion, or of Ellen.
You can see this transcript online at ttp://freepages.rootsweb.com/~mrawson/genealogy/extr5.html
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the transcript of Peter Peryns will. Yes, he obviously wasn't Ellen's first husband. Perhaps he was her husband's brother. I will have a further look at this.
Continuation of transcript of John Asshert's will:
If it happen the said Thomas the son of the said Thomas my brother do die before his father then I will my said overseers deliver a lawful estate of and in my foresaid place and lands at Hernwood to the foresaid Thomas Assherst the elder my brother to him his heirs and assigns forever without any continuance(?) in the same. Also I will that all my other lands and tenements rents copilands and such(?) with their appurtenances shall remain to Elys Elizabeth and Benet my daughters to them their heirs and assigns forever. Also I will that if Elene my wife die within the age of 18 years of my said two sons then I will that my two sons and lands aforesaid be (...) and (...) by my said overseers in form (...). Also I will that if all my moveable goods and chattels and all my debtments be not able to perform fulfil and pay debts and bequests in form foresaid that then my said overseers sell as much of my said lands at Hernwood as needeth truly for the performance of this my last will and testament as they think by them (...) best to be done. Furthermore I will that my said overseers shall suffer my said executors to sell carry out at all reasonable times (...) it honest which I have sold and ... (end of will)
Probated ...
-
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the transcript of Peter Peryns will. Yes, he obviously wasn't Ellen's first husband. Perhaps he was her husband's brother. I will have a further look at this.
Continuation of transcript of John Asshert's will:
If it happen the said Thomas the son of the said Thomas my brother do die before his father then I will my said overseers deliver a lawful estate of and in my foresaid place and lands at Hernwood to the foresaid Thomas Assherst the elder my brother to him his heirs and assigns forever without any continuance(?) in the same. Also I will that all my other lands and tenements rents copilands and such(?) with their appurtenances shall remain to Elys Elizabeth and Benet my daughters to them their heirs and assigns forever. Also I will that if Elene my wife die within the age of 18 years of my said two sons then I will that my two sons and lands aforesaid be (...) and (...) by my said overseers in form (...). Also I will that if all my moveable goods and chattels and all my debtments be not able to perform fulfil and pay debts and bequests in form foresaid that then my said overseers sell as much of my said lands at Hernwood as needeth truly for the performance of this my last will and testament as they think by them (...) best to be done. Furthermore I will that my said overseers shall suffer my said executors to sell carry out at all reasonable times (...) it honest which I have sold and ... (end of will)
Probated ...
Hi Gerelle
Thanks for that. I am trying to see if I can find any mother Peryn wills today which might prove useful. I'll let you know what I find.
In the meantime I have copies of these Wills if you have not yet seen them:
Henry Essheherset of Kingsnorth 1530
William Assheherst[e] of Great Chart 1524
Let me know if you want to see those.
Best wishes
Matt
-
Hi Matt
Good luck with other Peryn wills. I hope you find something. Can you also see if you can find the will for Clement Gyfford.
I already have a copy of the two wills you mentioned, but I would like a copy of the will of Thomas Asherst of Great Chart 1554 and that of Elizabeth Assheherst of Westwell 1528.
Cheers, Gerelle
-
Hi Matt
Good luck with other Peron wills. I hope you find something. Can you also see if you can find the will for William Gifford.
I already have a copy of the two wills you mentioned, but I would like a copy of the will of Thomas Amherst of great chart 1554 and that of Elizabeth Assheherst of westwell, sorry forget the year. I'll check on that when I get home.
Cheers, Gerelle
Hi Gerelle
I think those two wills are on my list of things to check so I will see if I can get copies. There is also a 1581 Will of Michael Assheherst of Kingsnorth which may be worth looking at as well.
I have copies of the following Wills:
Henry Essheherst of Great Chart 1463
John Essherst of Ashford 1514
John Essherst of Ashford 1517
Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth 1464
Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth 1540
Thomas Ayssherst of Kingsnorth 1474
Thomas Asherst of Great Chart 1503
Thomas Essherst of Great Chart 1512
Thomas Asherst of Ashford 1518
The years given are all the years of probate except the 1464 Will of Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth which has no probate year.
If you haven't seen these let me know and I will send you copies.
Elizabeth's Will was probated in 1529 according to my list.
I can't see any record of a will for William Gifford. Did you mean Clement?
Best Wishes
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
The wills I would like to obtain a copy of are -
Thomas Asherste of Great Chart 1554 PRC/17/29/272
Elizabeth Essherst of Westwell 1528 PRC/32/15/66b
The will of Robert Asheherste of Great Chart. The reference for the Inventory of Robert Asheherste of Great Chart 1581 is PRC/10/10/82 - there is supposed to be a will associated with this inventory, but I have found no reference for it on the Canterbury Probate Records Index.
Also I wanted to check if the will of John Essherst of Ashford 1512 has a probatum clause that is missing from my copy of the will.
I have a copy of all the wills you listed and a copy of the will of Michael Asheherst of Kingsnorth 1581. He is the son of Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth whose will is 1540. In his will, Michael Asheherst mentions the following:
His unamed mother, his brother William Asheherst of Kingsnorth, his wife Jone and his children Henry, Mary Whyte, Jone (the elder), Katheryn, Anne, Margaret, Myldred, Jone (the younger), Edward (eldest son) and John (second son).
Michael Asheherst was married twice. His second wife (named in his will) was Jone Hubert. He has a number of brothers and sisters, as enumerated in Richard Assheherst's will and also in the wills of his brothers of which I also have copies.
I have made a fairly comprehensive list of all the Asherst wills on the Caterbury Probate Records Index from 1450 to 1600 (about 40 wills) and have a copy of about 25 of those.
Sorry, yes I did mean Clement Gyfford of Ashford Will 1507.
Cheers, Gerelle.
-
Hi Matt,
The wills I would like to obtain a copy of are -
Thomas Asherste of Great Chart 1554 PRC/17/29/272
Elizabeth Essherst of Westwell 1528 PRC/32/15/66b
The will of Robert Asheherste of Great Chart. The reference for the Inventory of Robert Asheherste of Great Chart 1581 is PRC/10/10/82 - there is supposed to be a will associated with this inventory, but I have found no reference for it on the Canterbury Probate Records Index.
Also I wanted to check if the will of John Essherst of Ashford 1512 has a probatum clause that is missing from my copy of the will.
I have a copy of all the wills you listed and a copy of the will of Michael Asheherst of Kingsnorth 1581. He is the son of Richard Assheherst of Kingsnorth whose will is 1540. In his will, Michael Asheherst mentions the following:
His unamed mother, his brother William Asheherst of Kingsnorth, his wife Jone and his children Henry, Mary Whyte, Jone (the elder), Katheryn, Anne, Margaret, Myldred, Jone (the younger), Edward (eldest son) and John (second son).
Michael Asheherst was married twice. His second wife (named in his will) was Jone Hubert. He has a number of brothers and sisters, as enumerated in Richard Assheherst's will and also in the wills of his brothers of which I also have copies.
I have made a fairly comprehensive list of all the Asherst wills on the Caterbury Probate Records Index from 1450 to 1600 (about 40 wills) and have a copy of about 25 of those.
Cheers, Gerelle.
Hi Gerelle
Are you doing a ONS on this surname by any chance?
With regards to Robert Asheherste of Great Chart have you looked at the original record? I see from the Canterbury Probate Records Index that there is supposed to be a Will associated with the listed Inventory but like you I can't see the Will itself listed. I have seen a few cases in the past where the Will is filed with the Inventory so they may be together.
I will look to see if I have a copy of the 1512 Will of John Essherst and see if I can spot a probate clause.
Best Wishes
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
I certainly didn't start out to do a ONS on the Asherst name, but trying to see where my Asherst line fits in has made me look at all possibilities. However, I still haven't been able to make the link yet.
The most definite link I have is that my ancestor, Elizabeth Asherst who married Erasmus Elmstone, is mentioned with her husband, in the will of her mother, Elizabeth Asherst of Ashford 1613. Her father is John Asherst of Ashford whose will is dated 1584. But further back than that is uncertain.
I think I may have tried to look for the inventory of Robert Asheherst 1581, but I could not find it. Mind you there are 952 inventories 1559-1640 to go through in this record, so its quite a hit and miss process to try and find it, that's if it is there at all! I might try asking the Archives Office in Kent for their advice in trying to find it. Let me know if you have any luck with the probatum clause for the 1512 will of John Asherst. Otherwise, I will ask the Kent Archives Office about that as well.
Cheers, Gerelle.
-
Hi Matt,
I was looking through the wills that I now have transcripts for but don't seem to be able to find one for the will of Thomas Ayssherst of Kingsnorth 1473/4. Yet, when I read through the will, I feel like I have read a transcript somewhere but can't find it. Do you have a transcript of this will?
Did you have any success with the wills you were searching for?
Cheers, Gerelle
-
Hi Matt,
I've had some help from Horselydown and Bookbox on getting transcripts of a couple of the early latin Asherst wills (see under topic "Help with Ashert Wills"). I have just received the final parts of the transcript for Richard Essheherst of Kingsnorth's will 1464. You may want to have a read through that. It says that he has sons and daughters (unfortunately unamed) and a sister, who has a daughter, Alice Honywode. It also mentions Henry Assheherst (who I assume is his brother) and also mentions that lands came to him after the death of Thomas Hert (possibly his father-in-law). It also says that his wife is expecting another child, so all of his children must be fairly young and that is why they are not mentioned by name as heirs perhaps.
In the other version of his will 1463, he also mentions a Thomas Assherst. I suspect that one version of the will was written before his death which was imcomplete and the other after his death, but as they were both dated 18 May but a year apart, it is hard to say without a death or probate date.
Cheers, Gerelle.
-
Hi Matt,
Re: the will of John Essherst of Ashford 1512/1514
In one of my earlier posts, I asked if you had the probatum clause of this will. As I was looking back through your early posts I found where you had posted a copy of it, so thanks for that.
Gerelle.
-
Hi Matt,
Have been looking into your Alice Asherst who married Thomas Denne.
The information I found was that it was an Agnes Ashurst (born 1458 Kingston) daug of William Ashurst (born circa 1430) who married Thomas Denne (born 1455 Denne Hill, Kingston son of John Denne and Alice Arderne) circa 1480 and had children Avice 1488, Thomas 1489 and William 1495.
Don't know if this helps.
Gerelle.
-
Hi Again,
Sorry, missed the pedigree of Denne in Visitation of Kent 1619. So obviously, there was an Alice Eshehurst who married a Thomas Denne as well. Not sure if it is the same family as the Asshersts or not?
Gerelle.
-
It certainly fits the time frame really well and it is possible that William Eshehurst (the father of Agnes Eshehurst) is a brother of Henry Essheherst, Richard Assheherst and Thomas Ayssherst. Hope you are getting these messages, as I haven't had any reply from you.
Cheers, Gerelle.
-
Regarding the repair of roads and highways in John Essherst's will of 1512 and elsewhere. I recently read that the roads and highways around Beaver, Ashford were very poor and that the local citizentry took it upon themselves to improve them.
-
It's been a while but I was wondering if there has been any new evidence found on the parentage of Alice Essherst who married Thomas Denne?
-
It's been a while but I was wondering if there has been any new evidence found on the parentage of Alice Essherst who married Thomas Denne?
Hi Marayong,
The Alice Essherst who married Thomas Denne is most likely Elys the daughter of John Assherst and mentioned in his will of 1493. I did find recently a small Asherst pedigree on page 7 of Arthur Hussey's book "Wills in Ashford" which had that Elys (the daughter of John Asherst of Beavor, Ashford who died 1493) married Thomas Denne. Obviously, this is not a confirmation that it is correct, but from our further research on the Asherst line, we have been able to establish that this John Asherst of Ashford was the son of the William Essherst whose daughter Agnes married the elder Thomas Denne, so there was quite an association between the Asherst and Denne families at that time.