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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: wildwitch on Monday 02 October 17 21:21 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to understand the movements of a relative during WW1. I have his medal index card and Service Medal awards, but I always find these records a little confusing to understand.
The soldier was a Thomas Patrick Mulhern, born 1884 in Ireland. He worked in London for the GPO at the time the war started. Thomas I think was a private in the 8th London Regiment, Rifle Brigade, which I can see is the post office rifles? The Service medal awards also mentions something about 20th and 21st regiment? All I know from oral family history is that he was in the peace corps in Palestine, but I don't know where to start searching there.
I would be grateful for any information. How can I tell when he joined I have been trying to search by his number, but haven't got very far
thank you
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His medal roll and service number are telling us:
He joined the 8th (City of London) Battalion London Regiment (Post Office Rifles) on 7 September 1914**. From the first dates it seems that he was in the 2nd/8th which served first in UK and then went to France in January 1917, serving on the Western Front until 10 July 1917. There is then a break in overseas service (perhaps wounded and evacuated back to UK - guesswork) during which he is transferred into the 21st Battalion Rifle Brigade which went to in Egypt 17 July 1918 to 8 September 1918 and then the 20th Battalion RB also in Egypt from 9 September 1918 to 11 November 1918.
Without his service record, we don't know why there was the gap and where he was when in UK 1917-1918. He was still in Egypt when the war finished on 11 Nov 18.
There is also a Silver War Badge record for him (** shows his enlistment date) which shows he was still serving on 26 July 1919 when he was invalided out of the service due to sickness
Peace Corps - don't know, not a military organisation and it a US one as far as I know but I pass on that element of the question.
Hope this clarifies his service , do ask if you need any more.
MaxD
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Hi thank you for clarifying that.
I had been wondering about the missing year and his discharge due to sickness. I had wondered whether he was receiving some form of treatment during this time, especially since he rejoined the war in a different regiment and with a different Nr. My thought was that he may have left the 8th due to sickness and once he was able he rejoined again. I'm also noting that after 1918 as far as I can tell he was in the TF. I'm assuming that the 21st was the
21st (Midland) Battalions Territorial Force?
As far as I can see he never fought in Palestine during any of these dates though, which is still causing me some confusion, although I assume Palestine may have been after the war, in view of the family story. I am also wondering whether the TF and Peace Corps were confused and whether he spent time in the middle east until his discharge from the army in 1919
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He may well have been wounded in the fighting in the second and third week of June 1917 when the battalion suffered some 86 wounded. On return to UK (and perhaps after some convalescence) he would have remained in the army. His new number came from the transfer to the Rifle Brigade from the London Regiment. Yes, the Rifle Brigade battalion he served with first was 21st (Midland) Battalion Rifle Brigade and the other the 20th (Northern) Battalion Rifle Brigade (the location is irrelevant - men were put where they were needed).
All three battalions he served in in both the London Regiment and the Rifle Brigade were Territorial Force battalions ie not regular army.
As to Palestine. The "Egypt" theatre of war (which is what 4b on his medal roll indicates) includes Palestine. However, one would need to look closely at the history of the 21st and then the 20th Battalions to determine exactly what they were doing and where in the mid to late 1918 period. The Long Long Trail (impeccable source) says they were used for garrison duties and they are shown as Garrison Battalions in the Lines of Communication Defence Troops in the Order of Battle of the Egypt Expeditionary Force. So he could well have served in Palestine but was not among the fighting element of the force there. The dates suggest a time line:
1916 (he is in France)
21 Rifle Brigade (RB) to Egypt (no war diary)
20 RB to Egypt
July 1918 - he joins 21 RB in Egypt
Sep 1918
21 RB to India
He transfers to 20 RB
Mar 1919 - returns home with 20 RB (War diary date)
Jul 1919 - discharged
The fact that 20th Battalion remained in theatre until March 1919 and could be described as been in Palestine "keeping the peace" may well have been where Peace Corps comes from? The "Peace Corps" proper title wasn't founded until 1950 an, as said, is a US organisation.
MaxD
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Hello everyone,I don't know if anyone can help me,but I'm trying to find out about what my great grandad did in ww1,but a bit confused because I have a photo of him in a Middlesex reg uniform,but on his British and victory medal said Pte J.R Alcock GS/79037 R.FUS,his full name is John Robert Alcock,I'm really trying to find out what battle he could have been in,I would be very grateful for any help.
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Hi, on a very quick look:
The guy you mention (J.R Alcock GS/79037 R.FUS) appears to have been in the 9th Royal Fusiliers and a Private. He went to Theatre 1a (France/Belgium) between 16.7.18 and 31.8.18. From this you can search for any war diaries at the National Archives for this regiment. These diaries won't tell you about him, but where his regiment were and what they did etc. You can also research the regiment online and get an idea where they were etc and that way you can find what battles he probably fought in, since you now have the dates between which he went to France.
I've only had a really quick glance though and he doesn't seem to have been the only person by that name. Do we therefore have the correct guy?
You mentioned a Middlesex reg uniform. There was also this guy: John Robt Alcock
Service number 56538
Age 18 Years 0 Months
Birth year 1900
Birth place St Leonards
Occupation Printer
Attestation year 1918
Attestation date 08 February 1918
Attestation place Whitehall
Unit or regiment Middlesex Regiment (53rd Ysb)
Regiment Middlesex Regiment (53rd Ysb)
Height 5ft 4in.
Weight in pounds 119
Eye colour Grey
Complexion Fair
Hair colour Brown
Chest expansion inches 2
Chest size inches 33
Remarks 13 St Silas Rd Kentish Town
Notes Recruitment register: No.2 Book on cover. Recruitment numbers 55001-57055.
County Surrey
Country England
Reference 2496 / 29
Series CONSCRIPTED MEN, 5TH NOVEMBER 1917 TO 27TH FEBRUARY 1918
Page number 159
Record set Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933
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Thank you very much,I knew my great grandad was born in Hastings,I'm just happy that I know where he deployed,thank you again for the information.
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I would say these are records for the same man. You have the medals of the Royal Fusilier whose medal record is in the name of John Robert Alcock and who served overseas .
The other record is the Surrey recruitment register which shows John Robt joining the 53rd (Young Soldiers) Battalion of the Middlesex, a training battalion, on 1 Feb 1918. The photo is likely to have been from this period when he was first conscripted.
This would suggest that he then was transferred to the 9th Royal Fusiliers for his overseas service., when he would have been given another number.
Wildwitch suggests looking the the war diary for his time in France, it is at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352684
The date he returned from France suggests that he was probably wounded and evacuated home. His battalion was badly mauled in early August 1918 so much so that it had to be re-organised from four to two companies on 8 Aug.
MaxD
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Thank you so much for that max,I'm finally getting to know a bit of what he did,I only have 1 photo of him,thanks again for the information.
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Sorry about this,just 1 last question,if my great grandad got wounded and sent back home,would he have got the war wound badge?ive heard so much about this badge.
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If he was invalided out because of wounds he would have received the Silver War Badge which is possibly what you are thinking of. I checked - he didn't.
Someone wounded but able to serve on (in his case in UK) after treatment and convalescence would not receive the SWB. There was a gold braid badge (came in brass also) called the wound stripe, an upright stripe worn on the lower left arm.
MaxD
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Great,thank you.