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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Jomot on Thursday 05 October 17 10:58 BST (UK)
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William Winter T4/249531, previously T/245, died in action 27 May 1918. His CWGC entry confirms his service was in No.2 Coy. 50th Div. Train Army Service Corps but has the added note 'attd. Royal Army Medical Corps'.
At first I thought this meant he had attested to the RAMC, but as only the ASC is noted on the medal card & rolls I assume it means he was attached to the RAMC - would that make sense?
The CWGC entry shows that he was buried elsewhere and then re-buried at La Ville-aux-Bois British Cemetery, so any help in identifying where he was when he died and which war diary might cover the events would also be appreciated.
And finally, as his original number is shown as ASC (TF) T/245, am I right in thinking that he was originally a Territorial?
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
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Correct on both points. It was common for ASC men to be attached to the RAMC as drivers.
He was a Territorial & re-numbered in 1917 with a 6 digit number as were all Territorials.
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With regard to where he was when he died is almost impossible to say.
I would say though that he was attached to the 50th. Div. RAMC rather than being attached out.
They consisted of the 1/1st. & 2/2nd. & 3rd. Northumbrian Field Ambulances.
It's possible (if not probable) he was attached to one of these as they operated close to the front line.
May 1918 sounds like he died during the German Spring Offensive.
The 2/2 FA war diary states that on the 26th. the 50th. Div. were put on alert as they were about to be attacked.
All bearers & motor transport were to report to the CO commanding 1/1 FA at Fontain-au-Vivier.
On the 27th. They were shelled & forced to withdraw to Mazy which they couldn't get into owing to the heavy traffic & shelling (gas). They continued to withdraw again & they finally ended up in Aulineax on the 31st. They lost several men, wagons & vehicles. Your man would have been one of these.
To give you an idea of where these places are, Ma(i)zy is N. of Reims & Aulnizeax South.
To their credit no injured man was left behind.
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Just seem jim's post but this I hope dovetails with it.
Guesswork (hopefully intelligent) suggests he was attached to 1st/1st Northumbrian Field Ambulance, one of the two in 50 Division at the time.
On 27 May 1918 the FA was in a location given the code name Monaco, on the edge of a wood just north of Fontaine au Vivier, and in Fontaine au Vivier to the north west of Reims, map here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Fontaine+au+viviers/@49.3922138,3.7640883,9940m/data=!3m1!1e3
Map from the Div diary showing Monaco here https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2824_1-00000?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_2811_0-00351
The FA diary records on that day a tremendous bombardment of both positions making Monaco untenable and destroying all eight motor vehicles (perhaps he was one of these drivers?). Monaco had to be evacuated to Fontaine which then also had to be evacuated under shell and MG fire all the while. While the FA diary doesn't specifically record casualties, there is a record at Div level of an ASC casualty.
As you've seen, he was brought from his initial resting place elsewhere to La Ville au Bois which is about 12 kilometres north east of Monaco which also suggests the location is about right.
The diary is at the National Archives (£3.50) at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354700
MaxD
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Thank you both for your replies. I was out & about earlier so could only view on my phone, but now I've had a proper read-through of your replies and looked at the links, I feel I'm getting a good sense of it.
I'd looked at the 1st/1st Northumbrian Field Ambulance war diary previously but wasn't really sure I was on the right track, or what 'Monaco' referred to, so your information is a great help.
Thank you once again - I always appreciate (and am in awe of) your immense knowledge.
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The Divisional HQ diary for May 1918 is well worth a read. It has an unusual number of detailed accounts from different levels of the fighting at the end of May. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14055665
MaxD
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In M. Young's book ASC 1902 - 1918 he gives the regimental prefix of 'T/' as Horse Transport and 'T4/' as Horse Transport in the 4th New Army.
Following up on Jim1's mention of 50th Div, In a table entitled 'ASC Company Information' is an entry for ASC Company 468; Ex Northumberland Division Column (TF); Western Front (Northumbrian) 50th Division; Role: Train No. 2 Company HT; WO95 2825. The latter being the National Archives record: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO95+2825&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=WO+95&_col=200&_hb=tna (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO95+2825&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=WO+95&_col=200&_hb=tna). Might be of interest.
Jon
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Thanks for the extra link Max, much appreciated.
Jon, I followed most of that (I think!) but as there are several options under WO95 2825 I found myself lost again! You mentioned ASC Company 468, so would the relevant file be
WO 95/2825/5 ?
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It's the 2825 and is indeed useful in that although much of it is written from the HQ perspective, it does record the shelling of 2 Company (to which our man belonged) at Meurival which is a very short distance due south of Fontaine au Vivier (it is on the Div map I linked to) and records the killing of one man, 5 wounded and the destruction of 13 vehicles and 15 horses.
So it is all part of the hate of 27 May and the area is the same as the FA. Whether he was with the one or the other - take a view!
MaxD
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Thanks again.
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You mentioned ASC Company 468, so would the relevant file be
WO 95/2825/5?
2825/5 is entitled "Divisional Train (467, 468, 469, 470 Companies A.S.C.)" so I'd say that is one to look at - assuming the 50th Div is indeed the one concerned. Though it may well only mention such things as, say, '5 other ranks lost' without going into detail - all depends on the level of detail the diarist entered.
Jon