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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Jane Lucas on Thursday 05 October 17 15:11 BST (UK)
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If someone lives at Near Mill Flint/Mill Brow Flint and says there are born in Flint (Census records 1871-1901), but were buried in Northop old cemetery, where would I go to for the Parish Register to look for the birth? I don't know if Near Mill/Mill Brow is in Flint itself or Northop. I think the Registers are kept in different places.
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Welcome to RootsChat! ;D
First off, Parish Registers don't show births - they show baptisms ;D
Secondly, were the family church or chapel? I would suspect they were non-conformist chapel?
Have you tried looking at Flintshire Record Office?
http://www.flintshire.gov.uk/en/LeisureAndTourism/Records-and-Archives/Home.aspx
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Yes, sorry. I do know that. He was born abt. 1836 so it will be baptism I'm looking for. I don't know if they were church or chapel. The only information I have that I know for sure is correct is from the marriage register of his daughter. It simply states name and occupation of father (Collier) . It is father (and mother) I want to trace. The daughter was born in Flint, Flintshire (from census records), but went to work in Liverpool aged 19. I have found Census records from a family in Flint near Mill with names that fit, but that is circumstantial. I was hoping that a search of the PRs would lead me to a baptism and marriage. I have found a couple of possibilities for baptism on FindMyPast (Flint Baptisms) but not a trace of a marriage. Possibly the marriage was non conformist.
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Do you have any names?
The GRO Index Search now shows maiden names for nearly all birth registrations.
You have to register, but it's free to search.
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Yes, I have an 'about' DOB of 1836 which is before Civil Registration begins. I did search just in case but with no result.
The CLWYD transcripts for Flint baptisms stop at 1812. So he falls into a gap. Quite possibly one of the Baptisms I have found on FindMyPast is correct, but I've no way of telling.
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Welcome to Rooschat.
There are baptisms for St.Mary Flint on www.freereg.org.uk.
(There is also a "Flint Mountain" category).
If non-conformist there is www.bmdregisters.co.uk(pay site) or www.familysearch.org
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger. Yes, I've tried all those just in case the birth fell into the years after Civil Registration but no luck. Civil Reg began in 1837 and the birth I'm looking at was just before that. Hence my question of where to go for the Registers.. if he was born in Flint then it would be Flintshire County Archives, but in Census Records his address is near Mill or Mill Brow. I'm trying to find out where that is. Also, he was buried (if I have the right person) in Northop Rd old cemetery.. I think those records are held separately.
I feel as thought I'm chasing a ghost as despite concrete evidence of an entire family in the Census Records for Flint, I have found only one possible birth, a possible baptism and absolutely no marriage!
I have sent an enquiry to Flintshire Archives but the chances of visiting there in the near future are slim. Ditto Northop. ::)
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The Freereg records are from before 1837.
Regards
Roger
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If you don't wish to reveal the name on the thread,send me a PM(Personal Message) and I will see what I can find and reply by PM.
Regards
Roger
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Mill Brow is here:
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/49e33098-5e77-43cc-bb2c-e9f3f566adad
Yes! ;D It does feel like chasing a ghost because we still don't know his name? ???
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Oh no! I've just spent about 20 minutes writing a reply and 'and error' occurred just as I was about the to post.. I has all disappeared.
Many apologies.. I didn't want to be a nusisance. Name Thomas Davies born about 1835/36 Flint. Occupation Collier. Daughter Mary (my gt. Grandmother) 1861/62 and Ann 1868. (If I have the right family in Census). She married in Liverpool 1883 but in 1891 Census says she is born Flint. Father on marriage entry is Thomas Davies, Collier. There is a Thomas and Sarah with Mary and Ann in 1871 Flint with Edward Griffiths, who I think is Sarah's father. Sarah and Thomas appear in Census up to and including 1901. He is buried in July 1901 at Northop old cemetery.
However the only marriage for a Sarah Griffiths and Thomas Davies is 1850 when he would be 14! I can't find any Census records that look likely. There are two Baptisms in 1835/35 (1) Thomas and Jane (2) Thomas and Ann.
I still don't have the right birth record for Mary, which would at least confirm if I have the right wife/mother in Sarah Griffiths. I'm just about to and for another copy from the GRO.
Thanks for the map.. I looked for one but couldn't find anything.
Also thanks Roger for the non conformist bmd reg. I didn't know about that. There are dozens of Thomas Davies though so I need more clues before taking that further.
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Roger .. also thanks for Freereg... I didn't know about that either! Wonderful. Now I've got too many candidates!!
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This might be him
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3818362/3818366/35/
Regards
Roger
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If I have the correct death record he is given as 67 in 1901,putting birth more like 1833/1834.
Regards
Roger
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Yes.. I think at is him. Burial was 16 July. In one Census the estimate is 1834 and another 1838..either way that makes him too young to marry in 1850 I think.
But is he the same Thomas Davies who appears as father of Mary in 1883? Somehow the evidence seems circumstantial..
Except that, if there is a Thomas and Sarah in the Census records there must be a marriage somewhere!
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The parish of Flint comes under the Registration District of Holywell.
FreeBMD is showing 7 births for Mary Davies, 1861-1862, in Holywell RD!
So, switching to the GRO Index Search, we find this one:
DAVIES, MARY (Mother's Maiden Name:) GRIFFITHS
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in HOLYWELL Volume 11B Page 236
and
DAVIES, ANNE GRIFFITHS
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in HOLYWELL Volume 11B Page 266
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Hi. Thanks for that. I have those. There is another another one for Mary Davies in the GRO..1862 D Qtr Holywell v11b, p271. I think I'll have to order both of them, which I've been putting off as I seem to have had a spate of ordering copies that turned out to be wrong. That was before the GRO included mother's maiden name.
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I thought finding Thomas and Sarah in 1861 might be the key,but that has not proved the case.In fact,I'm not entirely sure I have found them.Part of the 1861 census is missing for Holywell/Flint(3),but I cannot say whether they were likely to be in there.There is a possible for Thomas as a Chem(mistrannscribed as "chain") labourer in Widnes,an occupation he also seems to have in 1891(?),unless I'm finding 2 different Thomases.Equally,I cannot positively identify Sarah.(In fact while I can identify baptisms for her brother and sister,Elias and Amelia,I can't find Sarah).As you say there is no obvious marriage either.I did wonder whether either had been married before,but the mmn data possibly suggests otherwise.I see your problem!I'll carry on looking...
Regards
Roger
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I reasoned that the marriage might have taken place just after the Census was taken and that they were both working and lodging somewhere else. Though that was before you told me part of the 1861 Census is missing
I did find a Thomas Davies age 25 at Naid y March (FindMyPast) in 1861 lead miner unmarried son of William and Ann Davies with a number of siblings. I'm very dubious about that now.. lead miner? But then later (1881) he is an ag. Lab and 1891 a chemical worker. I also prefer the Thomas and Ann or Thomas and Jane bapt already found but not confirmed. Because of the naming link. Though obviously that is very speculative!
I have bapt. For Sarah from FindMyPast.
Sarah bapt. 27 Oct 1833 Flint. Mother's maiden name Mary. Residence Bryan.
Also her father Edward..FindMyPast
BIRTH 17 July. Bapt. 22 July 1804. Bapt. Mold son of John Griffiths and Mary Jones.
There is a burial record for Edward which is consistent with this date of birth.
Marriage Banns for Edward Griffiths (FindMyPast)
14 Sept 1828 Northop (though FindMyPast give place as Connah's Quay). Register entry says 'Mary Ellis and Edward Griffiths ... both of this Parish of Northop'. Annotation on side says married by me H. Jones Vicar.
Mary is only seen in one Census (1841) and possibly died after birth of Eli 1842. In 1851 Edward is living on his own at Mill Brow, Widower.
So ... where the heck is Thomas, born around 1834/5/6?
Have heard from Flintshire archives that they only keep St. Mary's church records. Also a congregational one but not early enough. So I think if the family were 'Church' I will have to contact Northop. I won't be able to get there for some time and anyway..they might be non conformist.... !
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I've forgotten who I'm looking for! Of course there is no evidence that Thomas Davies was from Northop, only that his wife was. So perhaps St. Mary's records might hold the key.
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Perhaps the most likely baptismal record for Thomas is to Thomas(collier) and Ann,Flint 1835.
I would say this is the family in censuses:-
1841 HO107/1407/8/43/10 Castle Cottage Flint
1851 HO107/2501/99/18 Mumforth/Mainforth Street Flint
By 1861 the parents are by themselves at the same address,and in 1871 with grandchildren
Note that the "address",probably an area,"Bryn",is the same for Sarah Griffiths' baptism in 1833 as Thomas Davies' death in 1901.
Regards
Roger
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Gosh, thank you so much. I don't know how you worked that one out, but I agree. It seems to be the most likely. I've looked at those Census records before but couldn't decide. Now I see them all together, it fits.
Bryn has come up a few times .. think that is the address/area which Sarah's father is at in some records.
A lesson learned.. must organise all my search results for comparison. I keep looking for ways to organise and sort records when I have so many possibles. You are obviously more methodical than I am.
I've been trying to sort that family out for at least three years, so I am extremely grateful for your help.
I've sent for the copy baptism entry for Mary, Thomas's daughter as extra confirmation...
Hope I can return the favour some time.
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Still wondering why there is no marriagr record(I've searched newspapers too).At least if you accept the 1851 Thomas census it finally rules out the unlikely 1850 marriage.I'll carry on looking for marriage possibilities e.g.paired data where there are only three entries.
Regards
Roger
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I think the 1851 Census is probably correct .. but there is always a chance that the whole lot is wrong! At least I will know for certain mother's maiden name when I get the baptism copy.
Thank you for looking.
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Found a marriage for Thomas Davies and Sarah Griffiths, Wrexham, Denbighshire.. do you think that is a possibility..?
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Found a marriage for Thomas Davies and Sarah Griffiths, Wrexham, Denbighshire.. do you think that is a possibility..?
If its one in 1848 there will be no hope of a "lookup" as its listed as a "Civil Marriage" on North Wales BMD.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I do think it more likely though that they married somewhere near Flint.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I looked at that possibility,but am not sure that is the pairing from the four involved in the record as I found an Abel Griffiths with wife Sarah in Ponkey,Wrexham in 1871 who looked about the right age.I haven't yet found the opposite pairing,Thomas and Esther Davies,so I wouldn't rule it out altogether.(The NorthWalesBMD site is equally ambivalent)
I'll look again later.
Regards
Roger
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I think we can rule out the 1848 marriage,WRJ,as the couple were probably born 1833-1835 and we now think we have one of them in the 1851 census.
As for the 1854 possibility,I suspect that I can't find the "reverse" pairing in 1861 as there is a death of an Esther Davies aged 30 in Wrexham area.
It still doesn't rule it out altogether,but only an enquiry to the Registry Office may confirm it.
Regards
Roger
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The two daughteer in 187 may be significant if were looking at Thoms and Ann and Edward and Mary as their respective Parents?Looking at Sarah Griffiths I can see little alternative.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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1854.. it's in a civil reg index, though handwritten. The only way to know is to apply for a copy of it I guess.
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Another marriage to consider is one at Northwood Holy Trinity,Stoke-on-Trent Staffordshire between a Sarah Griffiths and a Thomas Davies in 1858.Now many Flintshire people including my own relatives went to the Potteries to live and find work around this time.
Regards
William Russell Jones
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Thanks wrj. Yes, I saw that too. But the daughter of this pair, Mary Davies (if correct pair!) was born in Flint in 1861/62. So I think we're looking for a marriage in or near Flint, unless they just went there for a short period.
I almost started from scratch this morning and looked again at all census records that could include any grouping which work in case I'd missed something. But I still come back to Thomas Davies and Sarah. There isn't really any other pair that works. There is a Thomas and Elizabeth but they still have their Mary with them I think in 1881, when I know mine was in Liverpool by that point. I did wonder if the whole family decamped to Liverpool, but then I find Sarah and Thomas living and dying in Flint/Northop, and no suitable Thos/Sarah pair in Liverpool.
There are two Mary Davis's born Flint in 1861/62 so I've ordered both copies from the GRO and hope they prove definitive, at least as far as mother's maiden name goes, though it won't of course help with the marriage place/date.
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Thanks wrj. Yes, I saw that too. But the daughter of this pair, Mary Davies (if correct pair!) was born in Flint in 1861/62. So I think we're looking for a marriage in or near Flint, unless they just went there for a short period.
I almost started from scratch this morning and looked again at all census records that could include any grouping which work in case I'd missed something. But I still come back to Thomas Davies and Sarah. There isn't really any other pair that works. There is a Thomas and Elizabeth but they still have their Mary with them I think in 1881, when I know mine was in Liverpool by that point. I did wonder if the whole family decamped to Liverpool, but then I find Sarah and Thomas living and dying in Flint/Northop, and no suitable Thos/Sarah pair in Liverpool.
There are two Mary Davis's born Flint in 1861/62 so I've ordered both copies from the GRO and hope they prove definitive, at least as far as mother's maiden name goes, though it won't of course help with the marriage place/date.
I wouldn't dismiss it too readily,some of my relatives who moved to Staffordshire from Flint were back an too almost every year or so!
Regards
William Russell jones.
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Thanks wrj. Yes, I saw that too. But the daughter of this pair, Mary Davies (if correct pair!) was born in Flint in 1861/62. So I think we're looking for a marriage in or near Flint, unless they just went there for a short period.
I almost started from scratch this morning and looked again at all census records that could include any grouping which work in case I'd missed something. But I still come back to Thomas Davies and Sarah. There isn't really any other pair that works. There is a Thomas and Elizabeth but they still have their Mary with them I think in 1881, when I know mine was in Liverpool by that point. I did wonder if the whole family decamped to Liverpool, but then I find Sarah and Thomas living and dying in Flint/Northop, and no suitable Thos/Sarah pair in Liverpool.
There are two Mary Davis's born Flint in 1861/62 so I've ordered both copies from the GRO and hope they prove definitive, at least as far as mother's maiden name goes, though it won't of course help with the marriage place/date.
I wouldn't dismiss it too readily,some of my relatives who moved to Staffordshire from Flint were back an too almost every year or so!
Regards
William Russell jones.
Also,surely some should be able to give you a look up on the Marriage in 1858?Put a request on the Staffordshire Forum.
Regards
William Russell Jjones.
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Good plan! I did look at that marriage and checked census records. I seem to recall that pair having their own family. I could be wrong. It's a while ago.
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Here we are!Is this the winning smack!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXFR-CX1
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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The 1854 Wrexham pairing is Abel(in other records Euble) Griffiths and Sarah Griffiths.
The children from the family I identified have a mmn Griffiths,and Euble is a widower in 1861.He re-marries a Sarah,this time Davies,in late 1861 and the children up to the 1871 census have mmn Davies,so it seems pretty conclusive.
I did look at the Stoke record,as there would probably have been mining jobs there,but I think I dismissed it,can't remember why now-I'll look again.
Regards
Roger
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Yes,great find WRJ.If you have FindMyPast there is an image of the certificate,also giving Thomas' father as "Thos"(collier).
Regards
Roger
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Blimey! Unbelievable!! That is so great. Why haven't I found that before.. I thought I'd tried every permutation going... You're a star. Thank you both so much. You've put in a vast amount of work and solved a 3 year mystery...
Now.. why on earth are they in Stafford!!
Yes, I've got FindMyPast.. just off to look.
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Blimey! Unbelievable!! That is so great. Why haven't I found that before.. I thought I'd tried every permutation going... You're a star. Thank you both so much. You've put in a vast amount of work and solved a 3 year mystery...
Now.. why on earth are they in Stafford!!
Yes, I've got FindMyPast.. just off to look.
As I said in an earlier comment,people were in fact extraordinarily mobile in those days as they moved around to look for work.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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It would probably be for mining jobs.
Regards
Roger
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Of course Coal Mines closed in both Staffordshire and Flintshire.This is how and why they moved back and forth.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I'll be able to sleep tonight.. can you believe this kept me awake last night worrying that the whole lot was completely wrong and I've have to start again.
Obviously Rootschat does not like acronyms .. I did not say blimey!
Thank you again.
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Perhaps Thomas worked at Northwood Colliery.
Regards
Roger
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I'll be able to sleep tonight.. can you believe this kept me awake last night worrying that the whole lot was completely wrong and I've have to start again.
Obviously Rootschat does not like acronyms .. I did not say blimey!
Thank you again.
Ha,yes it certainly gets to you at times!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Yes, just checked FindMyPast. There can be little doubt. I don't know the area at all and my history of coal mining there is sketchy .. it was before Arthur Scargill's time, but I get the feeling looking at the Census records that people were fairly poor. So they would go where there was work. But they must have come back.. perhaps to be near family once they had children, though Sarah's mother was already dead.
Both Thomas and Sarah signed with a x, as did both witnesses.
That is a little different from the families in Devon, Southport and Liverpool.. most people could sign their names by the 1860s.
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Yes, just checked FindMyPast. There can be little doubt. I don't know the area at all and my history of coal mining there is sketchy .. it was before Arthur Scargill's time, but I get the feeling looking at the Census records that people were fairly poor. So they would go where there was work. But they must have come back.. perhaps to be near family once they had children, though Sarah's mother was already dead.
Both Thomas and Sarah signed with a x, as did both witnesses.
That is a little different from the families in Devon, Southport and Liverpool.. most people could sign their names by the 1860s.
I do hope you might go back further than Thomas Davies Snr.I have a Davies family in Flint in the mid 1700s that needs bringing up to date!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Although the age is a few years out(given born 1840!),could it be Thomas(without Sarah) at 32 Bow Street,Stoke in the 1861 census?
I'll see if I can find Sarah separately.
Regards
Roger
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I do hope you might go back further than Thomas Davies Snr.I have a Davies family in Flint in the mid 1700s that needs bringing up to date!
I'm certainly going to try. I did start that a couple of days ago but lost confidence in the whole family. I'm back on it. There look to be a couple of options, but for some reason, all my searches in Flint/Flintshire lead to rather opaque results. Now of course, I'll have to start on the Parish Registers .. much trickier in a strange area. I'm not sure where most of them except except for the St. Mary's ones.
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Although the age is a few years out(given born 1840!),could it be Thomas(without Sarah) at 32 Bow Street,Stoke in the 1861 census?
That could be him couldn't it.. age as you say a little out, but as it was the head of the family who completed the Census for transcription, he might very well not have known exact age of a lodger. Thomas might not have been there to answer for himself.