RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: bitty_matriarch on Saturday 07 October 17 16:02 BST (UK)
-
Hope this is the right board. Just read this story on the Telegraph website:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/holiday-horror-story-south-africas-red-tape-cost-us-8000-dream/
This family were refused boarding at Heathrow for a flight to South Africa - read on:
"Well intentioned child trafficking rules were introduced in the country in 2015. The government now demands that travellers carry birth certificates for children who travel with them.
We took birth certificates for our two children, Sam, 13, and Kate, nine. But at the check-in desk, our holiday excitement turned to shock when the supervisor told us: “You’re not getting on that flight unless you have the right birth certificates.” It was hard to take in. Our certificates had “birth certificate” stamped across the top. How could they not be right?
As we now know, there are two types of certificate. You are issued with a free certificate at birth, but this is almost worthless. The legal document that carries the details of the parents normally requires an additional application and fee, depending on the council. This is called a “certified copy of an entry”.
Surely when the birth is registered, the copy given to the parents is the legal copy?
-
There is the short form certificate, and the full certificate (which was about a fiver when my kids were born 20 years ago), and is the type needed to get a passport.
-
https://www.gov.uk/register-birth/birth-certificates
ev
-
The short certificate has been around for a while!
My mother had one (in my possession now), and she was born in 1931 ;D
-
I have only got the short one and also those of my parents. However I have two - one dated 29th Jan and one dated 30th Jan. My mum said she really, really remembered it was 29th so maybe my dad was in a state when he registered me twice! I can't remember ever having the longer version.
-
Ireland got rid of the short birth cert in 2003, adds a bit of novelty value to the couple of short ones I've found around the house.
-
The short certificate has been around for a while!
My mother had one (in my possession now), and she was born in 1931
My dad had one which is in my possession and he was born in 1912 - so yes they have been around for a while!
-
We've both only got the full ones .... not seen the shorter ones. Why did they do them, one wonders?
-
Section 30 of the 1874 Act stated that a registrar shall, upon demand made at the time of registering any birth by the person giving the information concerning the birth, and upon payment of a fee not exceeding three pence, give to such person a certificate under his hand, in the prescribed form, of having registered that birth. I assume that this was the Short Birth Certificate, as the Ordinary Certificate was 2s. 6d. as required by the 1836 Act.
You can see an example of a short certificate at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=634529.msg4820875#msg4820875
A new short form of birth certificate was introduced on 15th December 1947, costing 6d. It showed only the name and surname, sex, date of birth and (where possible) place of birth. There were no particulars of parentage or adoption. There had been a mistaken idea that the short certificate carried with it the stigma of illegitimacy, but that had almost entirely disappeared, and it was now in extensive use. The Times reported in September 1955 that the National Council for the Unmarried Mother and her child had been able to help a number of illegitimate people of pensionable age, who had been reluctant to produce a birth certificate, by making them aware of the new short certificate. In 1955 almost as many short as full certificates were being issued, every year, by Somerset House and local registrars.
Stan
-
Surely when the birth is registered, the copy given to the parents is the legal copy?
No and the parents are advised to get a full certificate. I guess some people don't bother but it can cause all sorts of problems later, as the people in the article found out.
Also the comment in the article that the price depends on "the council" is totally wrong. GRO set the price and the only way you would pay more is if you decided to order a birth certificate via Ancestry or such like.
-
The short certificate is issued free, and is still used to send in support of a child benefit application. It contains the name of the child and date/district of birth, nothing else.
A full certificate ( a copy of the register entry), which shows the details of the parents, cost £4 each at the time of registration (a statutory cost set by GRO) and most people get one, quite often two, but they don't have to.... it is optional.
-
From memory, the short form was acceptable for registered my children at primary school in the 1990s. When they finished at the primary school the short form was returned home.
-
When I had my children I was advised to buy the full certificate for them, as at the time it was usually unmarried mothers who had the short certificate for their child as it doesn't show parents names.
-
I only have a short certificate and the fact that it is only the short certificate has never been a problem in over sixty years! Both my children only have short certificates too and never had a problem
-
A short certificate is not accepted in a Scottish divorce (or cessation of civil partnership) action where children are involved; only a certificate specifying parentage conforms with the requirement that any action affecting the welfare of children must be intimated to any person with an interest, which may include the biological father.
-
This what Leicester City Council say
From 1 November 2017, all certificates issued on the day of registration will cost £4 per copy. This will then increase to £7 and eventually £10 once the registration is archived. Free short birth certificates will no longer be issued.
https://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-community/births-marriages-and-deaths/register-a-birth/
Stan
-
Good evening,
You get even more of a problem if like me and many many other servicemen, your children have consular birth certificates. They are absolutely worthless as proof of who you are.
British consuls have large ledgers to record births which are one of documents. When you register the birth you have to tell them how many copies you require. The birth register is filled out and photo copies are made, the consul then signs the original and the copies in ink and a seal on a ribbon is attached to the copies. These are what you take away with you on the day they are made.
They are not accepted as proof of birth because they are photo copies, dammed stupid reasoning if you ask me because the signature and seal are originals.
Luckily when Junior required a passport he had kept his old PO issued one year passport which is accepted by the passport office. Good job he went on a school trip to France and got one.
John915
-
ALL British Birth Certificates are useless as a form of identification! ;D
It says so on the certificate.
At the bottom it says:
WARNING: A Certificate is not evidence of identity.
-
Back again,
True KG but you need one to apply for a British passport along with other documentation. The consular certificates were not accepted.
However, this was all changed by the gov in 1983 apparently and they are now accepted, if issued after that date.
Servicemen whose children were born in a military hospital could register with the consulate without the need for a local birth certificate. If however the child was born in a local hospital it had to be registered locally then you took that certificate with you to get them British citizenship at the consulate.
Although I was trained in all trades for chieftain tank I was also trained as a regtl medical assistant. As such I used to do regtl duties at the medical centre as ambulance orderly instead of guard duties. It was a matter of honour to get the ladies to BMH Rinteln, a 2 hr drive for us, for the birth or the child would be German in the first instance. We used to talk about anything to take their minds off of the job in hand. The rule was that if birth was immenent then you left the auto bahn and proceded to the nearest German hospital. In extreme emergencies birth took place in the ambulance but as they were not emergency ambulances with all the equipment needed you hoped it never happened to you.
John915
-
Our adopted son was always being asked to show his birth certificate when he signed on for agency work. Of course he couldn't supply his birth certificate as he didn't have it, but showed them his adoption certificate instead. It was amazing the number of companies that wouldn't accept it as proof of his identity until he explained that, even if he got his birth certificate it wouldn't show his name now, but only his original birth name.
-
The only thing I've had to use the long one for with my kids is passports (and stupidly didn't get them when registered so had to pay more), everything else, opening bank accounts, schools etc the short form is fine.
So we now have two for each of the children (one long, one short), only a long one for me (british consulate certificate so they may only do a long one), and my husband has two one in his birth name and one after he was adopted - a Northern Irish birth certificate stating he was born in Wales
-
"We took birth certificates for our two children, Sam, 13, and Kate, nine. But at the check-in desk, our holiday excitement turned to shock when the supervisor told us: “You’re not getting on that flight unless you have the right birth certificates.” It was hard to take in. Our certificates had “birth certificate” stamped across the top. How could they not be right?"
I can understand people who were not a 'child' prior to the Law change in 2015 having no problems in the past which doesn't actually help the situation of people under the new Law introduced.
However, what I can't get my head round is the fact that the Passport Office accepted/(accepts)? a short certificate.
Surely it would make sense if the Airlines or 'whoever/anyone else' didn't accept such things as a Passport issued AFTER the new Law without a Full Cert. & above all does the Passport Office insist on a Full Cert. since the new Law?
Singing from the same sheet rings a bell ???
Annie
-
As a registrar I was always careful to tell people that a free short certificate was not accepted for most official purposes - other than a child benefit application.
I can only think of one or two occasions (out of hundreds) where the parents chose not to have at least one full certificate at the time of registration.
-
Annie - I got the impression that it wasn't actually the airline that wouldn't accept the short birth certificate, but the South African government.
-
We were a service family in Cyprus and the route to the hospitals was far less than 2 hrs thankfully. Little girls, if they were born on Cypriot soil, it didn't matter but boys would be liable for conscription. They might holiday here years later and find themselves arrested for evading conscription. :( Conscription is still going on here.
Out here if you are asked for your birth cert. for official reasons you have to have the long one as they always note down the mother as well as father. The short one does not have as much information as the long one so like here the South African govt. may require mother's details as well.
-
Annie - I got the impression that it wasn't actually the airline that wouldn't accept the short birth certificate, but the South African government.
Thanks Lizzie!!
That's a whole different scenario now that I have re read it!
A with medicals/jags/jabs for different countries then people need to read up on the conditions of different countries prior to travel.
Annie
-
I have a short one, I have never needed a full one until a few years ago. I applied for two passports with just my short cert ( both British and Australian passports).
If it wasn't for my 3rd passport , I would still only have a short birth cert.
I had to get a long one for my Irish passport .(I applied through my mother's birth, so needed the long cert to show my mother's name)
I've never needed my full cert again ( I don't even know where I've stored it)
My Hubby has still not got his full cert as he has never needed it .
Kind Regards
-
I have a short one, I have never needed a full one until a few years ago. I applied for two passports with just my short cert ( both British and Australian passports).
If it wasn't for my 3rd passport , I would still only have a short birth cert.
I had to get a long one for my Irish passport .(I applied through my mother's birth, so needed the long cert to show my mother's name)
Cell,
That was a long time ago & with identity theft, child trafficking, foreign parents with child access running off with children, child abduction etc. then I can see a need now (impressive actually) & as mentioned previously, different countries have different laws which is the thing here as I have now discovered having had it pointed out by Lizzie.
Annie
-
Annie - I got the impression that it wasn't actually the airline that wouldn't accept the short birth certificate, but the South African government.
Thanks Lizzie!!
That's a whole different scenario now that I have re read it!
A with medicals/jags/jabs for different countries then people need to read up on the conditions of different countries prior to travel.
Annie
That makes more sense, I have taken my eldest granddaughter on holiday without her mother since 2015 and wasn't asked for documentation.... just as well as my granddaughter has officially changed her surname from the one she was registered with at birth. I did have all the relevant paperwork with me but wasn't asked for it.
All my other grandchildren have all travelled and not been asked for a birth certificate.
We were living in Saudi Arabia when my eldest children were due but I insisted coming home to have them as Saudi has the similar rules on calling up boys born in country in the event of war :o :(. I know several other mums who stayed and and had boys... I wouldn't risk it, even back then.
-
All my other grandchildren have all travelled and not been asked for a birth certificate.
I doubt they would stop everyone with children but :-\
None-the-less the OP was referring to 1 Country i.e. we don't know which other countries operate in this manner but it's good to know for future for anyone travelling abroad with children as a full cert. is a lot cheaper than the cost of a 'lost' holiday.
Annie
-
We were stopped over 30 years ago when taking our American nephew on a ferry en route to France. He was staying with my parents for a year and was too much of a handful for them as he was so badly behaved, his dad knew we were taking him away to France but we didn't have any written authority. What the customs officers did was talk to our son aged about 10 at the time (same age as his cousin) and ask him who the other boy was, where he lived, where he was staying whilst in England etc. etc. They were satisfied with our son's answers and let us take our nephew into France with us.
-
As a registrar I was always careful to tell people that a free short certificate was not accepted for most official purposes - other than a child benefit application.
I can only think of one or two occasions (out of hundreds) where the parents chose not to have at least one full certificate at the time of registration.
Yes, my children were born in the 1960s and I obtained both long and short birth certificates at the time of registration with the view that (at the time) I would need them for school registration (I think local libraries needed sight of birth certs too) and I didn't want to let the long certs out of my sight in case officialdom lost them.
-
Both my children were adopted as babies in the 1970s and only have short birth certificates. Although they were issued with normal long certificates at birth, these never came into our hands, as the children were wards of court until the adoption process was completed and the original birth certificates were the property of the birth mother, then the local authorities. After the adoption process was completed we were issued with adoption certificates in the babies' original names and new short birth certificates in the names we had chosen for them. At that time new legislation stated that adopted children should be provided with information about their parentage, so we do have names, ages and details like hair and eye colouring, height, interests, academic skills and occupation for all four birth parents.
There has never been any problem caused by their lack of a long birth certificate. The short form sufficed for passport applications, university entrance, etc. It sometimes aroused curiosity but never any difficulty.
-
My husband had to get a full birth certificate to apply for his passport, a short one would not do.
http://www.passports-office.co.uk/blog/passport_birth_certificate_short_long/
-
My husband had to get a full birth certificate to apply for his passport, a short one would not do.
http://www.passports-office.co.uk/blog/passport_birth_certificate_short_long/
That of course is not an official website but a commercial company.
The official page also says you need a "full" birth certificate.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-adult-passport/photos-and-documents-you-must-send
-
Well, Awfully sorry.......slap my wrist ;)
-
There are probably different requirements for different countries. We are in the UK. (Hope the EU doesn't get sniffy about short/long certificates when we are no longer members.)
-
My husband had to get a full birth certificate to apply for his passport, a short one would not do.
http://www.passports-office.co.uk/blog/passport_birth_certificate_short_long/
Since 1983 (I think), birth in the UK alone hasn’t been sufficient to qualify you for a British passport. You need to prove that your parents are/were lawfully in the UK too. This was to do with illegal migrants having children in the UK, getting passports for them and then arguing they should be allowed to stay as they had a British child. So now if an illegal migrant has a child in the UK, it has no right to a British passport and no automatic right to residency.
So I would guess that the requirement for the long birth certificate is in some way connected with proving your parents were British Citizens, or at least lawfully settled in the UK at the time of your birth. Something like that.
-
mmmm Elwyn, hubby had to go for an interview too at the nearest passport office.
-
mmmm Elwyn, hubby had to go for an interview too at the nearest passport office.
That's standard with first time applicants, and in certain other situations. To prevent identity fraud.
-
hubby had to go for an interview too at the nearest passport office.
I've never heard of that before, some of my adult grandsons recently bought passports for the first time and they didn't have to have an interview. One of them doesn't even have a driving licence as id and still lives at home, so no other id to offer, apart from a bank card.
-
https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-adult-passport/your-passport-interview
Oh this is the official site ;D
-
My sister got her first passport 2 years ago aged 63 and she had to go for an interview. The rule came out awhile ago as I remember reading about it.
-
https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-adult-passport/your-passport-interview
Oh this is the official site ;D
Thanks for posting the link, which I used out of curiosity. What a rigmarole!!
-
My sister got her first passport 2 years ago aged 63 and she had to go for an interview. The rule came out awhile ago as I remember reading about it.
Are they actually going to interview everyone over 16 who wants a first passport? There will be a huge backup.
-
It's not unlike the process for getting married in England, where you're interviewed by the registrars together and separately and have to answer questions about each other. As with the IPS, they're establishing that you are who you say you are (and that the relationship is genuine, in the case of marriage).
All perfectly sensible and not too arduous, in my opinion.
Carol
-
Are they actually going to interview everyone over 16 who wants a first passport? There will be a huge backup.
Yes. They took on extra staff and opened extra local offices to deal with this.
-
To be fair, it was not too much bother ( apart from the 126 mile round trip, morning off work etc) and the passport arrived with us 2 days later.
-
Are they actually going to interview everyone over 16 who wants a first passport? There will be a huge backup.
Yes. They took on extra staff and opened extra local offices to deal with this.
It didn't apply to my daughter when she got her first adult passport .
but she's has a passport since she was about 3 months.
-
There are more than two types, because the discussion so far has related to the certificates issued in England and Wales, and the ones issued in Scotland are different*. There are also Northern Irish certificates, and people born in Northern Ireland before 1922 have Irish birth certificates.
*Scottish birth certificates have always included the actual time of birth, not just the date, and in 1855 and since 1860 they also state the date and place of the parents' marriage (unless of course they weren't married).
As in England and Wales, the Registrar issues a short certificate which does not include the parents' details, and a full certificate with all information is available for a fee.
-
Adding to the confusion, please remember that Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are not in the UK, and issue their own Birth Certificates.
-
Adding to the confusion, please remember that Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are not in the UK
Indeed. Which is why I didn't mention them above :) Or Herm, Sark or Alderney.
-
Adding to the confusion, please remember that Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are not in the UK
Indeed. Which is why I didn't mention them above :) Or Herm, Sark or Alderney.
OK! Maybe I should have said the States of Guernsey (which covers Herm, Sark & Alderney!) and the States of Jersey ;D ;D
I paid a visit to the Isle of Man Civil Registry just this week.
For a fee of £5.50, I was able to search the 1885 Register of Births, and photograph the required entry. Only available in person, of course. :D
-
I paid a visit to the Isle of Man Civil Registry just this week.
For a fee of £5.50, I was able to search the 1885 Register of Births, and photograph the required entry. Only available in person, of course. :D
Was the £5.50 a per visit or a per certificate fee?
-
I paid a visit to the Isle of Man Civil Registry just this week.
For a fee of £5.50, I was able to search the 1885 Register of Births, and photograph the required entry. Only available in person, of course. :D
Was the £5.50 a per visit or a per certificate fee?
Neither! ;D
Per register! If I need to look at numerous births in the same year, then it's just £5.50.
Each year is a single register; and separate registers for Births, Marriages and Deaths.
-
Scottish certificates are different again. I have had the certificates of my children and my certificate rejected when a UK birth certificate is asked for. I was even barred from applying for a job because I don't have a "valid UK birth certificate".
I can't afford to go abroad just now but know even if I end up financially better off I don't think I'll be able to take my children abroad on holiday. The child trafficing rules would also requir that I have a letter of permission from their father. My ex would never give me that.
-
Scottish certificates are different again. I have had the certificates of my children and my certificate rejected when a UK birth certificate is asked for. I was even barred from applying for a job because I don't have a "valid UK birth certificate".
I am shocked! Where was this?
-
Scottish certificates are different again. I have had the certificates of my children and my certificate rejected when a UK birth certificate is asked for. I was even barred from applying for a job because I don't have a "valid UK birth certificate".
I am shocked! Where was this?
A large national company whom I won't name for fear of being sued. They told me I had to apply to the Home Office for leave to remain and a work permit.
-
Scottish certificates are different again. I have had the certificates of my children and my certificate rejected when a UK birth certificate is asked for. I was even barred from applying for a job because I don't have a "valid UK birth certificate".
I am shocked! Where was this?
A large national company whom I won't name for fear of being sued. They told me I had to apply to the Home Office for leave to remain and a work permit.
I think you ought to be suing them!