RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: pharmaT on Sunday 08 October 17 09:08 BST (UK)
-
I have my tree on ancestry, mainly to have an "off site" backup for my tree. I have not scanned in my sources, just put i a reference in the comments. I guess it is just laziness re scanning but I have so much to work on and I was researching for about 11 years before I put anything on ancestry so scanning is not my priority. .
I have now been involved in a discussion on a genealogy group on FB where someone was asking why someone wouldn't have the certificates. A few of us commented saying they may do but haven't scanned them in and I explained how I worked with my certificates. The OP has complained that people like me create a terrible mess on ancestry, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site. I really can't face the mountain of scanning that would be involved but now I feel really bad and anxious. I don't want to spoil another person's hobby and definitely don't want to ruin a website. Should I delete my trees and my account to tidy it up? what then is the best, and cheapest way to have an offsite backup?
-
Gee PharmaT then I would have to delete my trees too. :o ???
-
I'd have told the Op to go whistle.
If you were asked, you can provide the source reference. That's more than enough for another who wishes to verify the connection to get their own copy of the original.
-
Probably just looking for a cheap way to obtain certificates.
-
On ancestry I only have the links to the census and other information they provide. I do not upload photos, certificates etc. I have these scanned and saved to my pc and part of my family tree software. It is not your or my responsibility to do another,persons work for them. Don’t be brow beaten by their comments. I do share information with others once they have proved a close connection to a relative.
Regards panda
-
On ancestry I only have the links to the census and other information they provide. I do not upload photos, certificates etc. I have these scanned and saved to my pc and part of my family tree software. It is not your or my responsibility to do another,persons work for them. Don’t be brow beaten by their comments. I do share information with others once they have proved a close connection to a relative.
Regards panda
Oh absolutely, if someone contacted me about a specific ancestor I'd send them the information.
-
The OP has complained that people like me create a terrible mess on ancestry, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site.
I would tell the OP that you have spent your hard earned cash on buying certificates at £9.25 each and do not intend to put them on Ancestry so people like the OP can get the information for nothing. The OP is obviously one of the young generation who think they are entitled to anything and everything without putting up the cash or doing the work.
-
Ignore them.
When you see the mess some trees are in on there and you're told you're spoiling it for other people - poppycock.
You carry on how you want to, as long as you can verify the facts and are happy with the way you work - well ignore the rest. If they carry on moaning on FB stop going to that particular site.
I'm on Ancestry and I don't think you're wrong in what you do.
-
We don't give in to bullies, do we?
Especially not when the bullies are trying to get something for nothing out of your honest hard work - which you've paid for! If anyone's 'spoiling' or 'ruining' anything, it's them with their nasty attitude >:(
Don't let the buggers grind you down ;D
Carol
-
I did try and argue that I was only responsible for the accuracy of my tree and not that of others but was told I was being selfish, arrogant and shouldn't be allowed. Don't get me wrong I'm not against helping people, I have done loads of times. BUT even if I do offer help surely, ultimately the responsibility for accuracy lies with the tree holder. I'm not saying I haven't made mistakes either but surely I am only responsible for my own mistakes and not others.
-
You can't argue with some people, I had trouble with someone who insisted it wasn't her gt uncle who died WW1 as her parents would have told her, it was the man in my tree who'd died (same name, lived quite close, same rank, same regiment). I told her in Soldier's Effects NOK was her gt uncle's father with an address same as their 1911 census. She then wrote to me and told me the family I had put on the man in my tree weren't his as he'd died in 1917 and they were all post WW1 - in that case my mother her siblings, my sister, cousins and I don't exist. He was my maternal grandfather and he didn't die until I was 11. What can you do?
Treat them as trolls as been said by CarolA3 they are bullies trying it on to get free certs. - don't argue just ignore them or leave that particular site.
-
I would take no notice at all of them. It is up to you what information you put on 'your tree' there are no rules (apart from not putting living people of course)
I have recently started adding some of my families but instead of pasting copies I have transcribed some entries and their source. Hopefully others who have given illegitimate children 'married parents' inventing a father when the baptism entry clearly states 'baseborn' and other such comments from registers that rarely appear on online transcripts will benefit from these remarks.
-
Trolls - that's the other name for them which I couldn't think of! Thanks Medpat. Either way, they count for nothing in my world.
Carol
-
I do share information with others once they have proved a close connection to a relative.
Regards panda
Out of interest, what records/documents would you accept as proof of a close connection?
-
I don't ask for exact proof as in documents, I enter intoa discussion with them as to why they believe there is a connection that's all
-
I think you are correct in wondering whether you should withdraw from the site - but not the Ancestry one but the Facebook one from whence these ridiculous comments arise.
Pheno
-
As to proof of a relative I would check that their research follows the same lines as mine. I have lots of family photos of past generations. A good example is a lady how is connected to my tree through a cousin of my grandmothers. There were three cousins. This lady in New Zealand is descended from one of the cousins. I was able to send her photos of her relation and her sisters. I was also able to send her a photo of the parents. The name was quite unusual and was easy to prove that we were researching the same line. I have seen so many trees that are wrong that it makes me laugh nowadays when you see that people put so little effort into their research but expect you to give them everything for nothing.
Regards panda
-
Pharma, why are you so worried about what other people (strangers) think about how you manage your tree and what you do and don't put on it? Tell them that what you do is your business and if they don't like it, don't look at your tree. By even thinking about removing your tree from Ancestry or changing how you do it, you are succumbing to bullying. There is no right or wrong way in this hobby, it is how it suits you. If you are really that concerned about what others think, just make your tree private - that way they won't see any of it!
As others have said, the reason they are probably complaining is that by adding all sources and certificates etc, you make it easy for them. They don't have to check things for themselves, they just download them and if it is certificates they save themselves money and do it on the cheap. Perhaps your counter argument to them should be that you are very surprised that they don't like the fun of seeking out and checking information for themselves rather than taking things at face value.
Ignore them and don't give them another thought. Continue to do things how you want, don't get into any arguments - just don't use that particular forum on Facebook.
-
The OP has complained that people like me create a terrible mess on ancestry, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site
And it's people like the OP that create a terrible atmosphere on FB, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site.
People who believe there is no valid opinion other than their own are not worth giving head space to. Ignore her and carry on as you have done. As others have said, she is a bully, pure and simple.
-
Pharma, why are you so worried about what other people (strangers) think about how you manage your tree and what you do and don't put on it? Tell them that what you do is your business and if they don't like it, don't look at your tree. By even thinking about removing your tree from Ancestry or changing how you do it, you are succumbing to bullying. There is no right or wrong way in this hobby, it is how it suits you. If you are really that concerned about what others think, just make your tree private - that way they won't see any of it!
As others have said, the reason they are probably complaining is that by adding all sources and certificates etc, you make it easy for them. They don't have to check things for themselves, they just download them and if it is certificates they save themselves money and do it on the cheap. Perhaps your counter argument to them should be that you are very surprised that they don't like the fun of seeking out and checking information for themselves rather than taking things at face value.
Ignore them and don't give them another thought. Continue to do things how you want, don't get into any arguments - just don't use that particular forum on Facebook.
It was drummed into me from an early age that I had to take responsibility for other's upset. If ever another child was crying I was sent to apologise for them being upset. I wasn't taken to places again if my mum thought to many were upset. I know my mum wouldn't believe me but I have constantly tried to make amends but constantly fail miserably. It causes me much anxiety.
-
I agree with all that's been said about the OP on facebook.
My advice would also be to leave the facebook group rather than ancestry.
My own tree is online, but on my own website, not on ancestry, or any other "tree-provider sites".
I have thumbnail images (100x70px) of one birth certificate, one marriage certificate and one death certificate. If I do have certificates for these events, I add the thumbnail(s), to the biography pages, but never the certificates themselves. The thumbnail images are merely a short-hand way of saying "yes, I do have the certificate for this event." People can magnify the thumbnails as much as they want, all they see is a blurred image.
regards,
Bob
-
It was drummed into me from an early age that I had to take responsibility for other's upset.
Not in this case you don't. The OP's upset is self inflicted, because they have a distorted idea of what is right or wrong, and is trying to "sell" his/her view as being the only one.
Bob
-
As others have said please ignore these bullies. Lots of lazy "researchers" out there who just want to freeload and not do any of the work or spend money for themselves.
Personally, I keep my tree on Ancestry private but am willing to share with those who can prove (through their own research) that we have a common ancestor. I recently had occasion to email a lady who had just copied from another persons tree supposed details of my G.G.Aunt. They had this lady married and going to New Zealand. Utter rubbish she lived and died in Scotland and never married and I have the certificates to prove it. In fact I had met up with her Gt. Nephew the week before and he actually knew her. The lady in question could not give me her relationship to my family and said it was too remote for Ancestry to calculate. She informed me that she had been researching her tree for a couple of years and had over 6000 people in it ??? ??? At least she had the decency to change her tree and I pointed her in the direction of Scotlandspeople where she could obtain the certificates for herself. The original perpetrator of this misinformation refuses to change her tree :'( :'(
Just one example of what can happen on Ancestry with those who copy others without obtaining their own proof.
Our trees are our own to record as we wish so please Pharma take no notice of those on facebook who tell you differently and please, please do not delete your tree.
Dorrie
-
The trees I put on Ancestry are just exports from my family tree software. There are no attached images. If I upload a fresh version, which I do often, then re-attaching image files would take me about five years.
The contents of a certificate I've purchased are normally transcribed into my software and the scan of the certificate is referenced. Whether the transcription makes it into the stuff that Ancestry keeps seems to have varied over the years.
In any case, such certificates have a repository of "Alston certficates file". The paper copies are stuck in a box file, in no particular order, because the electronic version is what I actually use.
If anyone wants to see such a certificate, then I am usually happy to email the image.
When it comes to my One Name Study, the contents of the Ancestry tree are very similar, but I make the scans of the certificates available on my own website. Another copy of my data is available without subscription on RootsWeb, which retains a lot more of the detail I upload. That detail includes the names of the image files as they appear on my laptop, so if there is an image that I've not got round to placing on my website, anyone can ask me for it.
So I'm probably more liberal than most when making things available. My reasoning is along the lines of:
- I've already paid for this research.
- I would have paid even if nobody else ever looked at it.
- I'm proud of my research and happy for others to see it.
- If it helps them on their way to the truth, all the better.
I may be lucky in not coming in contact with anyone "in denial". Most of my conversations have been with people who are happy to accept reasoning backed up by evidence. Many of these conversations have been started by me, pointing out where they have made mistakes and telling them where better evidence is to be found.
-
Seems to me some people are of the belief their subscription fees entitle them to FREE certs. etc. paid for by others but for them to receive them for FREE ???
Annie
-
Now that you've viewed the responses, I hope you're now less anxious Pharma and can feel free in doing what tens of thousands of others are also doing when they upload their trees without sources and uploading attachments.
My advice would be to think possibly that the OPs were generally having a bad day and were venting their frustration on any remote audience.
I certainly wouldn't take down my tree as I uploaded it with a view to distant cousins making contact with me.
-
Your tree on Ancestry is there for you to manage as you please. You don't even have to share it with anyone at all if you don't want to. The fact that you may have used information gained from sources other than Ancestry doesn't mean that you are obliged to share them. What kind of logic says that you have to do that just because someone else says so?
Concerning the person who finds the fact that you don't want to put everything you've ever paid for on your Ancestry tree to be some kind of personal affront; that is entirely their own problem, not yours. Nobody has the right not to be offended.
-
...So, ... don't worry. We all feel rather the same about you and your Ancestry tree. Tell that Facebook Lot to " remove themselves elsewhere" and listen to advice from people who value the same things. As others have said, your sources should stay private - I certainly don't put any sources on Ancestry, and wouldn't do so.
Stay true to yourself. Don't take it.
-
Ditto Threfall
-------------------------------------------------
what a load of !!!!
How dare they -- lazy good for nothings...
Its absolutely none of their business what you put on your tree.
and your tree BELONGS TO YOU not Ancestry or the world.
We have so many incorrect trees on Ancestry already without them attempting to blame you -
I am beginning to not worry that the top rung is getting closer (or maybe that is the bottom rung )
xin
-
I did try and argue that I was only responsible for the accuracy of my tree and not that of others but was told I was being selfish, arrogant and shouldn't be allowed.
If someone started using insults like that because they aren't getting what they want, I would reply as diplomatically and belittlingly as I could. They may dislike the way you run your tree, but so what?
The more important thing is that the tree you publish is based on the best facts you can find. Plenty of others aren't.
-
I agree with all the responses, PharmaT.
Sometimes the best way to deal with someone can be to say - cheerfully - "well, we'll have to agree to differ. I believe I don't need to scan and enter my certs and therefore I'm not going to, nor am I going to delete my Ancestry tree. You're fine to hold another opinion, but I'm not going to discuss it any more"
And move on.
Lots of folk hold different opinions, but we can still live our lives as we believe is right for us, and they can do the same.
-
The OP has complained that people like me create a terrible mess on ancestry, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site
And it's people like the OP that create a terrible atmosphere on FB, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site.
Pharma, why are you so worried about what other people (strangers) think about how you manage your tree and what you do and don't put on it? Tell them that what you do is your business and if they don't like it, don't look at your tree. By even thinking about removing your tree from Ancestry or changing how you do it, you are succumbing to bullying. There is no right or wrong way in this hobby, it is how it suits you. If you are really that concerned about what others think, just make your tree private - that way they won't see any of
Ignore them and don't give them another thought. Continue to do things how you want, don't get into any arguments - just don't use that particular forum on Facebook.
It was drummed into me from an early age that I had to take responsibility for other's upset. If ever another child was crying I was sent to apologise for them being upset. I wasn't taken to places again if my mum thought to many were upset. I know my mum wouldn't believe me but I have constantly tried to make amends but constantly fail miserably. It causes me much anxiety.
You are not responsible for another person being upset, unless you caused it. Some people are just quick to take umbrage.
As for upset children, it's one thing to show sympathy, but that doesn't mean shouldering guilt.
-
In addition to the excellent comments made by everyone on this thread, with which I agree, I also wonder if copyright laws apply as to whether or not certificates should be scanned and posted to an open website?
At least, that's always my first thought when I see that someone has scanned and uploaded certificates from ScotlandsPeople, for example, to their public Ancestry tree. In effect, aren't they publishing something to a website which does not have the legal right to publish it?
Regards,
Josephine
-
I wouldn't dream of scanning and uploading certificates to Ancestry, or anywhere else for that matter. Apart from being unsure of the copyright implications, I have paid for those certificates so why should I give them away for free? If people started complaining, I would tell them to go and run, and would refuse to be intimidated by that kind of bullying. Not sure which FB group you are being harassed by, but I would love to be able to have a peek to see what kind of nastiness is going on there. Might be a good idea to leave the group as it does seem as though there are a lot of nasty, entitled people on there who are determined to get their own way.
Chin up, keep your trees, but dump the FB page!
GS
-
Deleting your Ancestry account would be a ridiculous over-reaction but it's one option.
Leaving the Facebook group if you find it upsetting is also an option.
Shrugging your shoulders and not taking things personally is yet another option.
The extent to which we let ourselves get upset by strangers' comments is, to a large extent, under our own control.
-
In addition to the excellent comments made by everyone on this thread, with which I agree, I also wonder if copyright laws apply as to whether or not certificates should be scanned and posted to an open website?
According to this TNA document the only copyright issues appear to be re. the certificate layout and logos/crests rather than actual certificates. The data protection act is applicable for information re. living individuals but that's a different matter. So it looks like we're free to share our certificates, if we wish to do so.
The National Archives
Reproduction of birth, death and marriage certificates
May 2014
3. Frequently Asked Questions
Q: I'm publishing my family tree on the internet - I want to publish images of the certificates I have.
A: As long as there are no details about living individuals there is no problem about publishing the images of the certificates on your family tree website. Any modern certificates would be subject to the Data Protection Act, and would need the permission of any living named person prior to publication.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/reproduction-of-birth-death-marriage-certificates.pdf
-
If you want to stir them up a little more, just state that you do not have a scanner, and thus cannot put "scanned" documents on YOUR tree.
As it is your tree, not theirs, it is up to you, and you alone, what information goes on there.
-
I would tell the OP that you have spent your hard earned cash on buying certificates at £9.25 each and do not intend to put them on Ancestry so people like the OP can get the information for nothing.
That's what a selfish attitude looks like, PharmaT.
Is that you? No
-
I have my tree on ancestry, mainly to have an "off site" backup for my tree. I have not scanned in my sources, just put i a reference in the comments. I guess it is just laziness re scanning but I have so much to work on and I was researching for about 11 years before I put anything on ancestry so scanning is not my priority.
No, why one earth should you delete your research, there is no requirement to add images of certificates or anything else on Ancestry.
I have now been involved in a discussion on a genealogy group on FB where someone was asking why someone wouldn't have the certificates. A few of us commented saying they may do but haven't scanned them in and I explained how I worked with my certificates. The OP has complained that people like me create a terrible mess on ancestry, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site. I really can't face the mountain of scanning that would be involved but now I feel really bad and anxious. I don't want to spoil another person's hobby and definitely don't want to ruin a website. Should I delete my trees and my account to tidy it up? what then is the best, and cheapest way to have an offsite backup?
The person who said that it simply talking rubbish ignore them.
If however you think something they have said has struck a chord inside you why not try a different approach in the future.
When someone asks for information from you instead of scanning the certificate and sending them a copy perhaps you could scan the certificate and add it to your tree on Ancestry.
That would also have the advantage of building an online archive of your certificates in case of flood or fire.
Do not feel you have to provide anything for anyone, not providing certificates does not mess up Ancestry and does not spoil the site.
You also ask what is the best, and cheapest way to have an offsite backup.
The cheapest is free but whether it is best for you is another matter.
Free webspace used to be provided by Rootsweb, they were taken over by Ancestry who still provide free webspace (Even projects like FreeBMD and FreeCen use their webspace to host their websites, as do I for many of my website pages).
See http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~websites/
Unlike the Ancestry tree site you have to build the webpage yourself but the advantage is you do not give Ancestry a licence to use your data however they want.
Cheers
Guy
-
perhaps you could scan the certificate and add it to your tree on Ancestry.
I thought that was something the OP didn't want to do, why should she just to satisfy someone on Facebook?
Quote
I would tell the OP that you have spent your hard earned cash on buying certificates at £9.25 each and do not intend to put them on Ancestry so people like the OP can get the information for nothing.
That's what a selfish attitude looks like, PharmaT.
Is that you? No
Maybe it's not but PharmaT was feeling threatened and in a case like that the only response is to show you are not threatened and tell the other person why you do not intend to scan the certificates you have bought, so that they can be put on Ancestry for others to see for nothing - and if many of the trees on Ancestry are anything to go by they will be used wrongly.
The problem is that programmes like WDYTYA, plus the adverts for Ancestry give the impression that all you have to do is go to Ancestry website and everything is just set out there for you.
-
Pharma T, in which Facebook group did this conversation take place?
-
Re-reading the original post, it seems that the “argument” started over someone asking why people wouldn’t get certificates. That’s something we get quite a bit on here, people asking for look ups because they don’t want to, or can’t afford to get certificates. So my guess, as has been stated several times, that it is the same with the OP on FB, they want to complete their tree as cheaply as possible by using information posted by others.
It seems Pharma, that you are actually adding sources to your tree, but not in the form they want ie one they can download. If you put a on reference that you understand eg as a comment “see death certificate and burial record from NBI” that is good enough. That shows the records are available and tells anyone else where to look, if they can be bothered!
As a couple of people have asked, what is the FB page where this happened? Maybe the OP poster there needs a few Rootschatters to chip in!
In the end, ask yourself, who would you rather listen to and take advice from, those of us on a dedicated site such as RC or someone on a FB page who is obviously out to complete their tree as quickly and cheaply as possible by using other people’s trees, rather than do all the research themselves. No choice in my opinion.
Continue to your tree as YOU want to and ignore others.
-
I have my tree on ancestry, mainly to have an "off site" backup for my tree. I have not scanned in my sources, just put i a reference in the comments. I guess it is just laziness re scanning but I have so much to work on and I was researching for about 11 years before I put anything on ancestry so scanning is not my priority. .
I have now been involved in a discussion on a genealogy group on FB where someone was asking why someone wouldn't have the certificates. A few of us commented saying they may do but haven't scanned them in and I explained how I worked with my certificates. The OP has complained that people like me create a terrible mess on ancestry, make life difficult for everyone else, in fact spoil the site. I really can't face the mountain of scanning that would be involved but now I feel really bad and anxious. I don't want to spoil another person's hobby and definitely don't want to ruin a website. Should I delete my trees and my account to tidy it up? what then is the best, and cheapest way to have an offsite backup?
I'm absolutely "gobsmacked" for want of a better word of it. Who are these idiots
I mean people?
Please ignore them ! It seems to me they want people like yourself to upload all of their certs so they don't have to buy them themselves .
It's your tree, you do want you want with it!
I'd be damned if I scanned and uploaded my certs just to please these people's demands.Tell them to bugger off and point them to the GRO, cheeky gits.
Kind Regards :)
-
Just to join in again, Pharma T, I can see that you are probably unwilling to engage in an argument with whoever it is on this FB page who is telling you that you are "spoiling it" for others.
This is what I meant when I posted that you can always say to someone "we will have to agree to disagree".
That leaves it on the happiest footing on both sides, surely, and you won't be seen as challenging or argumentative or upsetting anyone.
Unless you'd like a Rootschatter to assist you to point out to this FB poster that everyone here - long-term researchers, mostly - completely agree with you.
-
Maybe you should ask the OP to point you in the direction of the certificates they have on Ancestry.
I think we can all guess the response.
Or maybe, as suggested by IgorStrav, you may prefer another RC'er to ask them for you.
Rishile
-
In addition to the excellent comments made by everyone on this thread, with which I agree, I also wonder if copyright laws apply as to whether or not certificates should be scanned and posted to an open website?
According to this TNA document the only copyright issues appear to be re. the certificate layout and logos/crests rather than actual certificates. The data protection act is applicable for information re. living individuals but that's a different matter. So it looks like we're free to share our certificates, if we wish to do so.
The National Archives
Reproduction of birth, death and marriage certificates
May 2014
3. Frequently Asked Questions
Q: I'm publishing my family tree on the internet - I want to publish images of the certificates I have.
A: As long as there are no details about living individuals there is no problem about publishing the images of the certificates on your family tree website. Any modern certificates would be subject to the Data Protection Act, and would need the permission of any living named person prior to publication.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/reproduction-of-birth-death-marriage-certificates.pdf
Thank you, cuffie81, that's great to know!
Regards,
Josephine
-
Good evening,
I agree wholeheartedly with everything said here, apart from one thing.
The OP is obviously one of the young generation who think they are entitled to anything and everything without putting up the cash or doing the work.
Thats a rather unfair comment Lizzie, we have no idea who this person is or their age. Could be a nonogenarian trying to complete their tree, not that age makes what they are saying any better.
How do we know they are not also a RCer and are one of the 1508 people who have looked at this, figure correct at start of my post.
I doubt every RCer is whiter than white, those of us answering here meet often so to speak but there must be hundreds who we don't know from adam.
Sorry Lizzie but if throwing stones make sure you are not in the greenhouse. You should have said "maybe" not "obviously".
John915
-
Without wanting to start an argument or cause ill feeling, I do have to agree with John. It isn't only younger people "who think they are entitled to anything and everything without putting up the cash or doing the work." We know from posts on here that people of all ages often say they can't afford or don't want to get certificates or take out subscriptions and could someone do a look up for them. I am sure there are a lot of younger people on RC who give a lot of time to helping others.
I think this also shows how careful we need to be when stating opinions on any forum, they don't always come out in the way we mean and can easily offend people.
-
If the problem lies solely on Facebook, the simplest thing would be to Block the person you don't like, then you won't be able to see one another's posts.
-
Sorry Lizzie but if throwing stones make sure you are not in the greenhouse. You should have said "maybe" not "obviously".
Ok - maybe.