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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Glynm on Sunday 08 October 17 15:38 BST (UK)
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Hi
For some time now I have failed to find the parents of my 2xGreat Grandfather, William Thomas (1822-1895). I would be grateful for any assistance since another pair of eyes may be able to spot something I am missing.
William married Anne Jones in Abererch on 26 August 1843.
From Yffor.com Abererch Marriage Register 1837-1847:
70 26/08/1843 William Thomas FA Ba Lab Llaniestyn Thos Wms Lab Anne Jones FA Sp Rhydygwystl Gth Jones Joiner.
At the time of the marriage William was a labourer living in the parish of Llaniestyn, his father was Thomas Williams (patronymics) and also a labourer.
From the 1871, 1881 and 1891 Censuses William's birthplace was given as the parish of Rhiw and approximate year of birth 1822.
I have searched the baptism records for Rhiw and the immediately surrounding parishes including Llaniestyn and Aberdaron CM Chapel cannot find a record. Could there be another non-conformist chapel in the Rhiw area where William might have been baptised?
Also I have been unable to find William Thomas in the 1841 Census unless he is the 17 year old in Caernarfon Jail. I realise that if William was living with his parents the census officer would probably have written William Williams.
I would be grateful for any help.
Glyn
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As a very long shot,given the vagaries of patronymics,is this worth considering?The father is given as a joiner,however-transposed?Llaniestyn is less than 10 miles from Rhiw?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FMM8-6Q2
Regards
Roger
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NorthWalesBMD has this interesting note on the marriage:-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kuo/
Regards
Roger
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Do you know if William had any brothers or sisters who could be used to determine parents?
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger
Thank you very much for your inputs which have made me have a re-think. Answering your points in reverse order:
No I have no details of William's siblings, however, there is one avenue which I now need to investigate which I will explain later.
I believe there is a slight transcribe error in BMD. The next marriage entry in St Cawdraf's Marriage Register taken from Yffor.com is:-
71 05/09/1843 Watkin Williams FA Ba Grocer Tynllan Llanarmon Wm Rbts Fa Anne Jones FA Sp Fourcrosses Harry Jones Gr
William Williams should be Watkin Williams a grocer who married a different Anne Jones.
It is frustrating that I cannot find the original register image on Findmypast who really messed up the filing of Welsh Parish Records some years ago. If you search for the an Ann Jones married in Abererch the records submitted are for Beddgelert likewise Ynyschyhaiarn are under Tudweliog and Clynnog under Capel Curig. End of my moan of the day but the original image may give the names of witnesses which could be a clue.
I must apologise for putting copy and paste lines from Yffor.com without headings which has probably led to some confusion since Thomas Williams was not a joiner but a labourer (Lab). The joiner was the father of Anne Jones, Griffith Jones (Gth Jones). However, writing Griffith's name out in full has suddenly made me realise that like many other Welsh families there seems to be a tradition in my family of naming the older children after their grandparents. Thomas and Anne's son (my Father's Grandfather) was named Griffith as was my Father who was named Griffith Richard after both his Grandfathers.
Thomas and Ann's children were named as follows:-
Elizabeth (1843-1846), Jane (1845-1857), Elizabeth (1848- ), Griffith (1850-1922), Catherine (1857- ) and Jane (1860-1831). It my be significant that after the early deaths of the first two daughters they had to use the names for subsequent daughters. I believe Jane was named after her maternal grandmother and Catherine after Anne's Grandmother. Elizabeth is the one I cannot connect, could she be named after Thomas Williams wife? Griffith Thomas's eldest daughter was also named Elizabeth.
Glyn
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There is a christening of Ann Jones to Griffith and Jane Jones,Four Crosses Calvinistic,Abererch,1822.
Could this mean William's parents are Thomas and Elizabeth?
Regards
Roger
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Yes Roger you have the right Ann who married William Thomas in 1843. We know that William's father's name was Thomas William and I am surmising that his wife might be called Elizabeth from William and Ann's eldest daughter being named Elizabeth.
Glyn
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The only marriage I can find for a Thomas William(s) to an Elizabeth that might look relevant is one listed as to Elizabeth Owen 1818 Aberdaron.However it looks to me as if the image says Bangor!Can't find any children from this marriage.
I did wonder if William was born out of wedlock to an Elizabeth who subsequently married a Thomas William(s).I haven't been able to find data to match this.The nearest I can find is the following:
There is a William Arthur born To an Elizabeth Arthur(no father given) in Aberdaron in 1822.Thiis Elizabeth Arthur is the patronymically named daughter of Arthur Thomas,and there are records of her baptism both as Elizabeth Arthur and Elizabeth Thomas.Could this make her son William Thomas,and his father's name at marriage be the easiest fiction?
Other than that I can only think of adult baptism,which might be difficult to find.
Regards
Roger
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Probably not relevant,but there is a marriage of a William Thomas to Elizabeth Williams at Rhiw in 1822.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger you might have something with the William Arthur birth. In the Aberdaron Baptism Register there are two Elizabeths born to Arthur and Jane Thomas the first I am guessing died in infancy and second was baptised in 1800. It could be since William's father was unknown he was given his Grandfather's surname and became William Thomas. I will dig a bit deeper.
Glyn
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I believe I have found Elizabeth in the 1841 Census 1388/1/46/5. She is living with her mother and sister-in-law at Pen y bron, Aberdaron.
Jane Thomas 75
Eleanor Thomas 50
Elizabeth Thomas 40
It would appear that Elizabeth has dropped her patronymic second name and adopted a conventional surname which makes a stronger case that her son would also have the same surname.
It is possible that at his wedding in 1843 William made up the name of his father to avoid the stigma of being labeled illegitimate again.
I must thank Despair again for finding the baptism record something which I would not of picked up on until he pointed it out.
There is a further mystery in that the baptism and marriage records for the family are in Yffor.com, I cannot find their burial records even though Yffor.com has transcribed the Aberdaron Burial Register from 1753 to 1999. One record I would of thought would be easy to find is Elizabeth's father Arthur Thomas who was born in 1768 and presumably died before the 1841 Census. Was there another graveyard being used in Aberdaron in the early 19th Century?
Regards Glyn
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Interesting,and not data I thought of or looked for.I'll see if I can find anything to help solve the latest mystery!As an aside I don't suppose Arthur Thomas was the son of a Thomas William?
Regards
Roger
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Just answered my own question-baptism 1768,Aberdaron,father Thomas Robert.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger
Arthur's father was Thomas Roberts
455 18/12/1768 Arthur Thomas Elizabeth Roberts Tyn y Nant Carrier
Here is Arthur's wife's baptism record.
242 05/09/1762 Jane Henry J Jane Roger Cwm y Ci Carrier
As you can see there are no Williams, could it be a clue to the real name of William's father? Finding the right one among all the Williams in Wales at the time would be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. Both fathers are carriers which I presume was a carter.
Regards
Glyn
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in looking for deaths I came across the GRO record for Elizabeth Arthur aged 42 in 1837,Pwllheli Union,and wondered who she might be given your 1841 census data.
Regards
Roger
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At the moment I do not know but more confusing is I have found this grouping which indicates that I jumped to the wrong assumption with reference to the three ladies in the 1841 Census.
Aberdaron Burial Register
526 Elizabeth Arthur Penrhynydyn 08/07/1837 39 David Lewis Curate
449 Ann Thomas Penrhynydyn 29/04/1834 2m David Lewis Curate
745 Jane Parry Penrhynydyn 31/03/1848 87 John Evans Vicar
Although the age of Elizabeth doesn't exactly tally it looks like her. Is the 2 month old baby hers? It would seem that Arthur's wife retained her pre-marriage name which was common at the time.
Once again Welsh Patronymics can be very confusing! I will try and investigate further.
Regards
Glyn
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I can only believe it is the same Elizabeth Arthur in both records,with an error in the age for one of them,probably the GRO.Given the scarcity of the name -same name,same quarter of the same year,same district seems too much of a coincidence.
Regards
Roger