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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lincolnshire => England => Lincolnshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Cockneyrebel on Monday 09 October 17 13:41 BST (UK)
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The above seems to have moved to Gosberton from Sussex 1881-1891 as at 1891 he was living at 49 Cemetery Rd, with his 'wife' Mary Elizabeth and 3 children, Gertrude b Q4 1881 Gosberton, Edith May b Q1 1887 Lambeth, London? and Ethel Maud b 8 Apr 1890 Gosberton. At 1901 at Salem St, there are 3 more children all born Gosberton and at 1911 at Salem St,2 more children b Gosberton.
However Mary Elizabeth's maiden name is unknown as I'm unable to find a marriage for her, she was bc1864 in Quadring.
Both Thomas and Mary passed away in Wisbech, she in 1929 and he in 1952.
Seems odd that they had 8 children and no marriage?
Cr
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Birth registrations:
Gertrude Coleman (no mmn listed), Dec qtr 1881 Spalding
Edith M__ Colman, c1887 Lambeth (poss died as Edith Colman aged 23, Dec qtr 1910 Spalding)
Ethel Maud Colman mmn Colman, Jun qtr 1890 Spalding
Lois Margaret Colman mmn Colman, Jun qtr 1894 Spalding
Thomas Henry Colman mmn Colman, Jun qtr 1896 Spalding
Joseph Frederick Colman mmn Coleman, Sep qtr 1899 Spalding
Beatrice Emily Sarah Colman mmn Coleman, Mar qtr 1903 Spalding
Frances Miriam Colman mmn Coleman, Sep qtr 1904 Spalding
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So do you think her maiden name was the same as his?
Cr
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Edith May b Q1 1887 Lambeth, London?
COLMAN, EDITH MAY
Mother's maiden surname: ASHLEY
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 364
You can look these up yourself.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp
I doubt that Gertrude was the daughter of Thomas.
Debra :)
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Yes the Lambeth birth with mmn Ashley is an odd-one-out. Possible a key clue, possibly wrong family! I can't easily see her elsewhere though.
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When Edith May married she gave her father as Thomas a builder.
Jennifer
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The only Mary Elizabeth bap in Quadring 1862-67 was LUNN, dau of Joseph and Susannah, 18 Oct 1863. There is no obvious marriage for her in Lincs.
I see her as Elizabeth M LUNN in Fishtoft in 1881.
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Seems odd that they had 8 children and no marriage?
Have been looking but nothing found I'm afraid ???
Is this Thomas Colman born c1863 Waldron with his father Daniel on 1871/1881 census?
1871 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFDS-51D
1881 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-1Z6J
Both Thomas and Mary passed away in Wisbech, she in 1929 and he in 1952.
Looking at the free search 1939 Register this appears to be Thomas -
Did they have another child named Annie? Not seeing Annie E with them ???
Wisbech R.D., Cambridgeshire
Thomas H Colman 1863
Annie E Sharp (Colman) 1902 is also on this record
and 1 offically closed
1891 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WRVQ-Y3Z
1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSDH-VJK
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7YQ-GDP
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Looking at the free search 1939 Register this appears to be Thomas -
Did they have another child named Annie? Not seeing Annie E with them ???
Wisbech R.D., Cambridgeshire
Thomas H Colman 1863
Annie E Sharp (Colman) 1902 is also on this record
and 1 offically closed
Perhaps their marital statuses are not what you seem to be assuming. ;)
I believe this is the SHARP connection
Marriages Mar 1955
COLEMAN Annie E (SHARP) King's L. 4b 1262
SHARP Samuel (COLEMAN) King's L. 4b 1262
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Possible for spouse
Birth, Sep 1863 Spalding 7a 291
Coleman, Mary Elizabeth
mother Leusley
Could be the 7 year old Elizabeth Coleman in the workhouse in 1871
Place of birth Quadring
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRXT-RRX
And in 1881 could be a domestic servant, age 17, in Newborough. Birthplace now Gosberton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27C-CY9P
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Also in the Spalding union workhouse in 1871
Isaac and Jacob Coleman
Both age 10, both born Quadring
Appears they were twins
Births registered March 1861, Spalding 7a 291
Although GRO index has the mother as Leusley on one and Lensley on the other.
Should be able to find in the 1861 census...
John
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Possible for spouse
Birth, Sep 1863 Spalding 7a 291
Coleman, Mary Elizabeth
mother Leusley
Could be the 7 year old Elizabeth Coleman in the workhouse in 1871
Place of birth Quadring
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRXT-RRX
And in 1881 could be a domestic servant, age 17, in Newborough. Birthplace now Gosberton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27C-CY9P
Good find!
I have in an index a marriage of John COLEMAN to Elizabeth LEUSLEY (6 Dec 1855 at Quadring, fathers' names John C and Joseph L)
but FreeBMD has this
Marriages Dec 1855
COLEMAN John Spalding 7a 705
LINSLEY Elizabeth Spalding 7a 705
Deaths Mar 1871
COLEMAN John 44 Spalding 7a 248
Deaths Dec 1865
Coleman Betsy 36 Spalding 7a 211
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If Edith May was born in Lambeth to Ashley, I presume that is Mary Elizabeth's maiden name or else why would Edith be with the family in 1891-1901? Why do you think that Gertrude isn't his daughter, she appears on the 1891 census too?
Cr
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Perhaps have a look at the fertility info in the 1911 census which you found - for number of children born to the marriage. Gertrude is much older than the next child, and the format of the GRO entry for her birth registration is consistent with illegitimacy.
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Good thinking avm, she said that she'd had 7, 6 living and 1 had passed away; we know the 1 but which of the other 7 wasn't her's when the whole lot of them were living with their 'parents?' during the censuses?
Cr
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The fertility questions in 1911 don't ask how many children a married woman has had, they ask how many children of the present marriage. So it doesn't mean any of the children aren't hers, but rather that one wasn't born to the marriage. I'd suggest it is highly likely that the relevant one is Gertrude, born before the couple got together (as you say it's not clear whether they were actually married to one another, but they presented as a married couple).
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Some related items?
Joseph son of Samuel and Rose Lieusly baptised on 6 Nov 1804 in Gosberton
1851 Census, Eudike, Quadring:
Joseph Luesby (Luesly) Head b 1804 Gosberton, Ag Lab
Mary Luesby (Luesly) Wife b 1802 Holbeach, Ag Labourer's Wife
Mary E Luesby (Luesly) Grand Child b 1851, Quadring
Mary Elizabeth Lucsby (Luesly)
Baptism date: 4 Aug 1850 Quadring
Mother: Elizabeth
David
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Which leaves the mystery of Edith born in Lambeth? If Gertrude was born illegitimately could they have eloped to Lambeth for the birth of Edith and returned later? Or they were never married?
Cr
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Regarding Luesly it can't be her as she'd have been 54 when last child was born?
Cr
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Mary Elizabeth Lucsby (Luesly)
Baptism date: 4 Aug 1850 Quadring
Mother: Elizabeth
Did that child die young?
Elizabeth had Mary ELizabeth COLEMAN in 1863, as found above.
Birth, Sep 1863 Spalding 7a 291
Coleman, Mary Elizabeth
mother Leusley
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Birth registrations:
Gertrude Coleman (no mmn listed), Dec qtr 1881 Spalding
Edith M__ Colman, c1887 Lambeth (poss died as Edith Colman aged 23, Dec qtr 1910 Spalding)
Ethel Maud Colman mmn Colman, Jun qtr 1890 Spalding
Lois Margaret Colman mmn Colman, Jun qtr 1894 Spalding
Thomas Henry Colman mmn Colman, Jun qtr 1896 Spalding
Joseph Frederick Colman mmn Coleman, Sep qtr 1899 Spalding
Beatrice Emily Sarah Colman mmn Coleman, Mar qtr 1903 Spalding
Frances Miriam Colman mmn Coleman, Sep qtr 1904 Spalding
Have you thought about obtaining the first two birth certificates to see if it reveals anything
that might be helpful regarding parent/s?
Have you found a baptism/christening record for Gertrude or Edith ?
Their sister Beatrice Emily Sarah Colman (index only)
15 Feb 1903 Baptism Gosberton, Lincoln, England
Father: Thomas Henry Colman Mother: Mary Elizabeth
Christening Registers
What if the parents were unmarried? Would the father's name be listed in the parish register? Likely not. The mother may give his name and the cleric might record "reputed father", but this was not required. Under Civil Registration, the father had to be present in order for his name to be recorded on a birth certificate
An illegitimate child legally took its mother's surname. Whether he or she changed it later or not was entirely up to him or her, or those acting on the child's behalf
The above from Lincolnshire Church and Parish Records
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/churchrecs#MarriageLic
Gertrude's m/c I would assume would name Thomas Henry as her father, so would be of no help
Her children from her marriage (1899 Spalding) to Arthur James Facey all have mmn Colman/Coleman
1901c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSDH-XPB
1911c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7YQ-LLG
1901c gives Gertrude’s yob 1879 and 1911 yob 1882 pob Gosberton, Lincolnshire
Gertrude Facey died 1943 Spalding age 62
Freesearch 1939 Register surname Facey Spalding RD
Arthur 1877, Gertrude 1881, Alfred H H A 1913, Frank 1917
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Re Mary Elizabeth Luesly in 1850-51, she was the granddaughter of Joseph and Mary.
Joseph Leusley was given as the father of Elizabeth who married John Coleman in 1855, the presumed parents of Elizabeth Coleman in 1863. They had other probable children prior to that, including George and James in 1859 and Isaac and Jacob in 1861. Each set of twins had the same baptism date but I can't find one for Elizabeth.
Mary Elizabeth in 1850 may be related to Elizabeth Coleman of 1863.
David
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Mary Elizabeth in 1850 may be related to Elizabeth Coleman of 1863.
Mary Elizabeth Lucsby (Luesly)
Baptism date: 4 Aug 1850 Quadring
Mother: Elizabeth
Did that child die young?
Elizabeth had Mary Elizabeth COLEMAN in 1863, as found above.
Birth, Sep 1863 Spalding 7a 291
Coleman, Mary Elizabeth
mother Leusley
That's why I wondered what happened to the first one. :-\
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Logically speaking it would seem that Mary Elizabeth could have been the widow of John Coleman and then got involved with Thomas H Colman but whether they ever got married seems to be the mystery? Could Gertrude be from Mary's marriage to John or am I barking up the wrong tree? And where does Edith's mother fit in?
Cr
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I think this may be the first Mary Elizabeth:
LIENSLEY, ELIZABETH age 3 1853 D Quarter in SPALDING Volume 07A Page 193
The register shows the name as Leusley of Quadring Eaudike on 3rd November 1853. The transcribed age is 8 but very feint and so probably an error.
1841 Quadring
Joseph Luesbey b 1806 Lincolnshire
Mary Luesbey b 1806 Lincolnshire
Elizabeth Luesbey b 1829 Lincolnshire
David
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I think this may be the first Mary Elizabeth:
LIENSLEY, ELIZABETH age 3 1853 D Quarter in SPALDING Volume 07A Page 193
The register shows the name as Leusley of Quadring Eaudike on 3rd November 1853. The transcribed age is 8 but very feint and so probably an error.
Yes, that could be her :)
FreeREG has transcribed the age as 3.
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1841 Quadring
Joseph Luesbey b 1806 Lincolnshire
Mary Luesbey b 1806 Lincolnshire
Elizabeth Luesbey b 1829 Lincolnshire
Some related items?
Joseph son of Samuel and Rose Lieusly baptised on 6 Nov 1804 in Gosberton
1851 Census, Eudike, Quadring:
Joseph Luesby (Luesly) Head b 1804 Gosberton, Ag Lab
Mary Luesby (Luesly) Wife b 1802 Holbeach, Ag Labourer's Wife
Mary E Luesby (Luesly) Grand Child b 1851, Quadring
Mary Elizabeth Lucsby (Luesly)
Baptism date: 4 Aug 1850 Quadring
Mother: Elizabeth
Also in the Spalding union workhouse in 1871
Isaac and Jacob Coleman
Both age 10, both born Quadring
Appears they were twins
Although GRO index has the mother as Leusley on one and Lensley on the other.
Should be able to find in the 1861 census...
Possible for spouse
Birth, Sep 1863 Spalding 7a 291
Coleman, Mary Elizabeth
mother Leusley
Could be the 7 year old Elizabeth Coleman in the workhouse in 1871
Place of birth Quadring
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRXT-RRX
And in 1881 could be a domestic servant, age 17, in Newborough. Birthplace now Gosberton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27C-CY9P
I have in an index a marriage of
John COLEMAN to Elizabeth LEUSLEY
(6 Dec 1855 at Quadring, fathers' names John C and Joseph L)
Deaths Mar 1871
COLEMAN John 44 Spalding 7a 248
Deaths Dec 1865
Coleman Betsy 36 Spalding 7a 211
Has anyone found the family on 1861c
Elizabeth (nee Leusley) who married John Coleman in 1855 or any of their possible children?
COLEMAN, JOHN HENRY LEWSLEY 1857 M Quarter in SPALDING
COLEMAN, GEORGE LUESLEY 1859 J Quarter in SPALDING
COLEMAN, JAMES LUESLEY 1859 J Quarter in SPALDING
COLEMAN, ISAAC LEUSLEY 1861 M Quarter in SPALDING
COLEMAN, JACOB LENSLEY 1861 M Quarter in SPALDING
COLEMAN, MARY ELIZABETH LEUSLEY 1863 S Quarter in SPALDING
Looks as if Jacob Coleman died in 1882 Spalding
And brother Isaac moved to Wales, married Margaret Allen (1880 Neath)
1891 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HMT9-3T2
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWX6-XQB
possible death Isaac Coleman age 57 in Neath 1915
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So it would seem that his wife was named Coleman coincidentally which nearly matched his own?
Cr
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I can't find any of the living Coleman family in 1861
George buried in Quadring on 22nd April 1859
James on 26th April 1859
Both listed as infant twins.
John Henry on 18th January 1864 age 7
Elizabeth on 10th Octber 1865 age 36
John on 25th January 1871 age 44
The abode of all was Quadring Eaudyke.
David
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So dcbnwh you're saying that Mary Elizabeth was the only one to survive and went on to marry John Coleman then Thomas?
Cr
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So dcbnwh you're saying that Mary Elizabeth was the only one to survive and went on to marry John Coleman then Thomas?
Cr
I think you are misreading things. :-\
Elizabeth LUESLEY was born c1829, married John COLEMAN in 1855 (he died 1871), she died 1865 aged 36.
One of their children was Mary Elizabeth COLEMAN 1863 ... Mary Elizabeth "married" Thomas COLEMAN.
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Jacob and Isaac Coleman were in the Spalding Union Workhouse in 1871 as was an Elizabeth, pointed out earlier by jonw65.
There is a death record for Jacob in Spalding in 1882, but no burial, and Isaac moved to Wales, as pointed out by Ladyhawk.
David
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So basically we're left with the fact that there appears to be no marriage record for Thomas and Mary Elizabeth?
Cr
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So basically we're left with the fact that there appears to be no marriage record for Thomas and Mary Elizabeth?
Cr
That's right.
Nor do we have any idea where John COLEMAN (father of Mary Elizabeth) came from.
I wonder why Thomas turned up in Lincs.
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So back where I started!
Cr