RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: mead researcher on Tuesday 10 October 17 08:29 BST (UK)
-
Hello on Dublin board from Barbara in Australia
I have a bit of a confusing situation here (don't we all..?)
While searching for a Marriage between Patrick WHITE & Margaret MACKEY (MACKAY McKAY) in Ireland in the time frame of a daughter born 30 January 1865 (whose mother's name is said to have been Margaret Mackey) in Dublin the only marriage that appears is between Patrick WHITE & Margaret HOLDWORTH 24 June 1864, St James Dublin.
The (famsearch) entry states -
Name: Patrick White - Spouse's Name: Margaret Holdworth - Event Date: 24 June 1864 - Event Place: St. James, Dub, Ireland - Father's Name: William White - Spouse's Father's Name: John Holdworth - Marital Status: Widowed - Spouse's Marital Status: Single.
No mention of a marriage between Patrick White & Margaret Mackey (etc).
However on the actual parish register entry I was interested to note that maiden name of Margaret Hold(s)worth's mother was Susana Mackey (Mackay McKay etc - hard to read).
I have also located Birth indexes for Mary Jane White 30 Jan 1865, 0700, Dublin, Ireland & Patrick William White 23 Dec 1867, Contae Atha Cliath, Eire, South Dublin plus a christening for Patrick William - place 676, South City No. 1, Dublin - BOTH WITH PARENTS Patrick White & Margaret Mackey (Mackay).
Can anyone offer any suggestion as to who was widowed, (it looks to be Patrick White) & whether the 2 ladies are married to the same chap...?
Any advice/suggestions would be welcome as I have not found anything to help so far.
-
Image,
/
/
-
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633561#page/64/mode/1up
-
The (famsearch) entry states -
Name: Patrick White - Spouse's Name: Margaret Holdworth - Event Date: 24 June 1864 - Event Place: St. James, Dub, Ireland - Father's Name: William White - Spouse's Father's Name: John Holdworth - Marital Status: Widowed - Spouse's Marital Status: Single.
Wonder where FS got that information!! Fiction???
-
Civil Reg might have that info...not church register
-
Marriage of PATRICK WHITE
in 1864
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Dublin South
Returns Year 1864
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 7
Returns Page No 708
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Dublin South
Returns Year 1864
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 7
Returns Page No 708
-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
Maybe she was widow??
-
".....However on the actual parish register entry I was interested to note that maiden name of Margaret Hold(s)worth's mother was Susana Mackey (Mackay McKay etc - hard to read)......"
That column is witnesses, not parents, look at the others above/below
-
If you continue across to the right hand page you will see that the witness are Rosanna Lupton and Simmonds or Timmons
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633561#page/64/mode/1up
usually when the bride is a widow both names are recorded on Civil Register
this is not the case here as only Margaret Holdsworth appears
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kv3/
There is the possibility that Margaret is a daughter of Susan Mackey before she married John Holdsworth
-
One way or the other Patricks occupation should be recorded on his marriage cert,his children's birth's describe him as a Tanner of 10 James St
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03455/2268620.pdf
1862 Dublin Street Directory lists 50 Bow St,West as tenements just up the street at number 25 is a Tannery
http://www.libraryireland.com/Dublin-Street-Directory-1862/145.php
-
If you continue across to the right hand page you will see that the witness are Rosanna Lupton and Simmonds or Timmons
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633561#page/64/mode/1up
usually when the bride is a widow both names are recorded on Civil Register
this is not the case here as only Margaret Holdsworth appears
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kv3/
There is the possibility that Margaret is a daughter of Susan Mackey before she married John Holdsworth
So, what names are in Column after Bride/Groom?
-
Mary Jane born 30th ? Jan 1865 mother Mackey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5P1-7TL
Baptised 12th Jan 1865 mother Holdsworth
left hand side with 2 xs
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633562#page/47/mode/1up
-
Next column is address, then parents, then Banns inf. then witnesses names/addresses, then married date and by whom.
That's how I read it so hope I have it right.
-
Thanks dathai - I did type a reply to hallmark re names of parents as against names of witnesses but I guess it vanished into an internet hole somewhere.....
However you have clarified it for him (or her).
Thanks for the additional info. you have added.
-
have you a marriage for Patrick William to Sarah Aikenhead the priest says Church of Holy Name 19?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633563#page/15/mode/1up
-
Next column is address, then parents, then Banns inf. then witnesses names/addresses, then married date and by whom.
That's how I read it so hope I have it right.
So, Patrick White's parents were Wm and Mary Conlon??
-
John Timmin's parents were John and Mary Dempsey???
-
Image
.
.
-
Same pattern - John Timmins parents were John (Timmins) & Mary (or May) Dempsey....
The surname of the bride and groom is not being stated, but taken as being the same as the surnames of the married couple.
-
Ahhh..sorry
-
That's OK hallmark - confusing :-)
Reply to dathai - re have you a marriage for Patrick William to Sarah Aikenhead the priest says Church of Holy Name 19?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633563#page/15/mode/1up
No I don't have that info. - could be the first wife, so then I would need to try to locate a death for Sarah White.....and possible children to the first marriage?
-
Found it
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26D9-C23
-
Patrick is likely to have children from the first marriage...
He was born c.1816 so was 48 when as a widower he married Margaret Hold(s)worth aka Mackey/Mackay etc.
I have him definitely as part of my family tree, on UK Census 1891 Edensor Place, Chorlton upon Medlock, Chorlton, Lancashire.
Head - widower - age 73 - Occupation Tanner & Leather Currier. born Ireland. (widowed from Margaret nee Holdsworth/Mackey?)
Also -
WHITE, William D (?) Son) single age 23 born 1868 (is this Patrick William?) Occ. Labourer in Print Works, born Dublin, Ireland.
REYNOLDS, William - son-in-law married 29 b. 1862 Lancashire, England Occ. Warehouseman
REYNOLDS, Mary J - daughter married 25 b. 1866 Occ. Corset maker born Dublin.
REYNOLDS, Margaret M Granddaughter age 0 b. 1891 Lancashire
KELLY, Hannah M Lodger age 35 b. 1856 Occ. Corset Maker b. Lancashire.
Do not have him arriving England, or any other UK census - yet :-)
Will start checking for the first marriage.....
-
I hadn't got that far - too busy typing my last reply.....
However that is too recent for Patrick born 1816 - I think it could possibly be the son of he and Margaret born 1867...
I mention him on the 1891 UK census but on there he is shown as William D White - not Patrick William White.
Possible........
-
that marriage 1914 is his son most likely Catholic as he must have applied for his baptismal certificate for his marriage to Sarah Aikenhead
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPTW-TTY
-
a possible with children born Bow Lane
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kv4/
-
Bridget White 22 Bow Lane age 37 buried Glasnevin 1861
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/genealogy/results/index.xml
-
Many thanks dathai - you have been extremely helpful and generous with your time :)
Much appreciated.
Barbara
www.KirchnerYoungTreeOfLife.bndon.com
(Including my GALLAGHER family)
-
Hi again dathai
I have been trying to locate Patrick and Margaret White's daughter Mary Jane b. c1865.
No success using the website below where you found Patrick William 1867.
I am probably missing a vital step when attempting this :)
One way or the other Patricks occupation should be recorded on his marriage cert,his children's birth's describe him as a Tanner of 10 James St
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03455/2268620.pdf
Any additional children would be good - I can't see where I can enter the father's christian name, only maiden name of mother....
Barb
-
The second one
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03574/2317247.pdf
You are probably putting in too much in the search.
To find Mary Jane just put in Mary White, Dublin South, 1865 to 1865 and check the image of each result until you find her.
-
Hi Sinnan
I thought I had done that - with no luck - but when I clicked on your link to start again - the entry for Mary Jane's regn. appeared without me scrolling through entries..
Many thanks.
I think when I had accessed the entry for Patrick William White 1867 that after I had saved the page and attempted to go straight back into the site to search for Mary Jane, the entry for him kept appearing until I closed the site down and opened it again.
??
Anyway I now have it :)
Thanks again.
Barbara
-
Hi dathai - it's me again as I remain slightly (?) confused.....
I have the Superintendent Registrar's document where the birth of Mary Jane WHITE states DATE & PLACE OF BIRTH - January (either Thirteenth or Thirtieth) 1865, 10 James' Street.
I have the record you pointed me to with the 2 "x"'s highlighting Mary Jane White's entry on the page of the Microfilm 072229/03 St James', Dublin City Baptisms Jan 1865 which shows WHITE Mary Jane of Patk & Margt HOLDSWORTH 12 inst at 9 James' St. (not 10 James' St) Sp. Mary CURTIS.
I have the fam search transcription showing Mary Jane WHITE birth date 30 Jan 1865 .
(could be a mis-transription if we go by the other 3 records)
I have UK 1939 Register showing Mary Jane GALLAGHER (formerly REYNOLDS nee WHITE - family info. - not on the register) DOB 12 Jan 1865
I guess if I am happy to think that the transcription is incorrect and it actually reads as Thirteenth (instead of the transcribed Thirtieth) my other query is how can the Baptism be dated the 12th when the birth could well be the 13th....?
Do we take it that one day different could be just clerical...?
Wondering if you have any feedback/advice re above...?
Barbara
-
Yes the birth was registered nearly 3 months later on 27th of April 1865 they could have changed address in this time as was common in the tenements back then,there was also a fine for late registrations not sure how long you were allowed for this and i am surprised that they did'nt have to make a statutory declaration when registering the birth.
edited to add i dont think you can dispute the date of baptism and the two x's might denote that she may have applied for her baptism certificate when getting married though the priest did'nt record it.
-
If you look at the top of baptism register page the priest has written January 9th 1865
for first baptism next 2 baptisms dated 12th then 5 baptisms dated 16th which includes Mary Jane born 12inst 9 James St
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633562#page/47/mode/1up
as you say 1939 register gives this date as DOB which probably means she had a copy of her baptismal cert.
-
Many thanks for taking the time to add to my suggested ideas.
I believe I will accept that she was born 12th January 1865 and that the writing on the Birth Registration document could be thirtieth but possibly should be thirteenth....
Mary Jane's mother could not write and as she was the informant possibly she just got it wrong or the clerk recorded it incorrectly.
I have found through the years that people on rootschat have been of amazing help and it is much appreciated.