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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: davonz on Wednesday 11 October 17 22:57 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to find my maternal grand fathers (Thomas Brain Beattie b 1918) family.
I have his birth certificate:
https://www.digitalnomad.nz/images/beattie.thomas.brain.(b1918).birth.certificate.jpg
It looks like the fathers name and info on the mother has been blanked out - not sure why.
The mothers name is: Theresa Eva Shea, she was born in Grafton, NSW. She meet Richard Cecil Hart some years after Thomas was born. Richard, Theresa and Thomas then moved back to Richard's family home in QLD when Thomas was 10 years old.
Thomas Brain then started using he step dads last name of Hart. And was always known as a Hart after this - Military records, marriage, births of kids etc..
I can not find any record of Thomas Brian Beattie existing in NSW BDM, or Theresa having married.
I also looked in the newpaper archives and couldnt find anything, however I have not had much luck there before but other members on here have found stuff I was looking (not mentioning any names JamJar) so maybe I have overlooked something.
Anyways any suggestions/info/help would be great.
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Hi there,
May I ask some direct questions
When and where did your maternal grand father die?
Do you have copy of his death cert and if so, can you please share the info on that registration?
Re the image you have uploaded .... Yes, someone has altered that document. It has NOT been altered by the NSW BDM. You may need to consider ordering an official transcription of that NSW BDM registration, but will need to wait until it is 100 years since his birth, so not long now. The official transcription will include the details that have been blocked out on that image.
JM
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I am not knowledgeable about NSW certs. Did you notice this notation added 1977.
Cando
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Yes, and I recognise the signature of the Principal Registrar who endorsed it. I can confirm that any alteration in the body of the certificate would have included his initials and be verified by a second officer.
JM
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Yes I agree JM but wondered if the OP had taken note.
Died Qld 1978
1978/ C6830
HART Thomas Brian
Richard Cecil HART Teresa O'SHEA
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=60740207&ref=acom
Cando
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Sands Directory Sydney 1915
Miss Helen BEATTIE, matron Marrickville Cottage hospital, Lilydale St, Marrickville.
May be a co-incidence, Helen v Nellie.
JM
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Hi there,
May I ask some direct questions
When and where did your maternal grand father die?
Do you have copy of his death cert and if so, can you please share the info on that registration?
Re the image you have uploaded .... Yes, someone has altered that document. It has NOT been altered by the NSW BDM. You may need to consider ordering an official transcription of that NSW BDM registration, but will need to wait until it is 100 years since his birth, so not long now. The official transcription will include the details that have been blocked out on that image.
JM
He died 1978, in Yaleba, QLD
QLD BDM Deaths - 1978 C6830 Thomas Brian Hart Richard Cecil Hart Teresa O'Shea
That was ordered from NSW BDM - but in 1989. That is how it came. The paper its on is that waxy feeling paper. The registar has signed it in red ink. It looks like they put pieces of paper over the fathers and mothers details when copying.
Thomas Brian was born in 1918. Richard Cecil was overseas for WWI in Egypt from 1915 until 1919. So Thomas wasn't his son.
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Yes I agree JM but wondered if the OP had taken note.
Died Qld 1978
1978/ C6830
HART Thomas Brian
Richard Cecil HART Teresa O'SHEA
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=60740207&ref=acom
Cando
Yes I had noticed it. I am guessing its prior to Thomas's marriage. He was married in NSW - Guya, 1939.
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I wonder if anyone with the CDs for NSW BDM could check for the INDEXED surname for Thomas Brian's mother. I am absolutely positive that the first of those irregular blocks causing the whiteout, does NOT cover up Thomas Brian's birth surname, but rather a third given name for him. It was not until 1969 (or thereabouts) that NSW BDM registrations for births include surname for the baby. Mum's maiden surname has been covered by the second of those irregular blocks.
I have read your comment re that's how NSW BDM sent out that image. I am familiar with their admin process, and I have phoned a relative who was a senior officer at NSW BDM in that era. I have left a message for him to phone me back.
JM
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I have read your comment re that's how NSW BDM sent out that image. I am familiar with their admin process, and I have phoned a relative who was a senior officer at NSW BDM in that era. I have left a message for him to phone me back.
JM
Do they normally not do that ?
The stamp is also a different colour to the rest of it - grey. So it looks legit/original to me. I could copy in colour if thats any help.
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I am not questioning the endorsement in the left hand margin.
:) That is in accordance with the usual practice.
I am questioning the way there's two pieces of information that have been blocked out, and that the person doing that action has NOT initialled their 'work'. Hence my phone call to my rellie :D
I have a number of NSW BDM birth certs issued back in the late 1970s and into the 1980s, including for fostered children. None have any 'white out' sections like this. It is a first for me and I am an inquisitive family history buff. When I have heard back I will share here on this thread. :)
JM
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Sands 1915
C J LOEWENTHAL, J.P, ‘Scarba” Wellington St, Bondi. Tel 87, Waverley
JM
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I am not questioning the endorsement in the left hand margin.
:) That is in accordance with the usual practice.
I am questioning the way there's two pieces of information that have been blocked out, and that the person doing that action has NOT initialled their 'work'. Hence my phone call to my rellie :D
I have a number of NSW BDM birth certs issued back in the late 1970s and into the 1980s, including for fostered children. None have any 'white out' sections like this. It is a first for me and I am an inquisitive family history buff. When I have heard back I will share here on this thread. :)
JM
I understand now - if they have done anything to alter the certificate there should be an initial beside it.
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Sands 1915
C J LOEWENTHAL, J.P, ‘Scarba” Wellington St, Bondi. Tel 87, Waverley
JM
C J, Bellingen newspaper, last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article127674928
J.
Added: Looks like his family in Grafton, see TROVE.
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Birth: 7405/1860 LOEWENTHAL Charles J parents LEWIS and MATILDA GRAFTON
You will find him on NSWBDM having last child with Sarah in 1889.
Jamjar
Charles married in VIC, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article62142582
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Birth: 7405/1860 LOEWENTHAL Charles J parents LEWIS and MATILDA GRAFTON
You will find him on NSWBDM having last child with Sarah in 1889.
Jamjar
Charles married in VIC, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article62142582
I am guessing this has nothing to do with Beattie or have I missed something ?
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Birth: 7405/1860 LOEWENTHAL Charles J parents LEWIS and MATILDA GRAFTON
You will find him on NSWBDM having last child with Sarah in 1889.
Jamjar
Charles married in VIC, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article62142582
I am guessing this has nothing to do with Beattie or have I missed something ?
Nellie Eva Beattie was living at his address, as per birth cert and JMs post.
Charles and wife both died in 1925. When did Theresa move to QLD?
Jamjar
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Interesting: https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/guide/nsw/NE00319
Jamjar
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Nellie Eva Beattie was living at his address, as per birth cert and JMs post.
Charles and wife both died in 1925. When did Theresa move to QLD?
Jamjar
Theresa moved to QLD around 1928. Its said in family history that Richard Cecil Hart and Theresa Eva Shea turned up with a 10 year old Thomas Brian at Richards family home near Kogan QLD.
Theresa was originally from Grafton, NSW, so maybe she knew these people before she went to Sydney.
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" The mandate of the Society from its outset was “to relieve the Poor, the Distressed, the Aged, the In firm”. During the years of World War I, the Board of the Society felt that a need existed for temporary care for homeless women and their children. To that end the Scarba Welfare House for Women and Children opened in September 1917 to provide care for mothers and their dependent children, as well as children aged less than two years without other accommodation."
https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/ref/nsw/objects/pdfs/living-at-scarba-may2006.pdf
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" The mandate of the Society from its outset was “to relieve the Poor, the Distressed, the Aged, the In firm”. During the years of World War I, the Board of the Society felt that a need existed for temporary care for homeless women and their children. To that end the Scarba Welfare House for Women and Children opened in September 1917 to provide care for mothers and their dependent children, as well as children aged less than two years without other accommodation."
https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/ref/nsw/objects/pdfs/living-at-scarba-may2006.pdf
This is interesting. Theresa's only living son said that Theresa was a widow, and that her husband has been killed in WWI. But maybe thats not true.
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I think you need to heed JM's advice and wait until June next year and ask a transcription agent to view the original certificate and transcribe it. Cost is usually $20. There are three accredited agents in NSW.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
Let us know the details then and possibly we can help you further. All documentation about Thomas Brian will have HART as his surname. He served in WW2 with Irene his wife as NOK
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=A&VeteranId=121567
Cando
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Think we can discount an actual relationship between Theresa and CJ.
"Historical notes: First appears in Sands Directory in 1884, occupied by Malcolm Campbell and known as "Scarba". Former residence of AM Loewenthal, who was an alderman of the Council in 1914-15. Property acquired by the NSW Government just prior to World War 1. Passed onto the Benevolent Society which established a children's welfare home there in 1917."
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/heritageapp/ViewHeritageItemDetails.aspx?ID=2620345
It could be that she used the father's surname, or maybe just a chosen surname, considering the use of Nellie as her Christian name.
Jamjar
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Theresa was unable to give a husband's name and their date of marriage when she registered the birth. That suggests to me an illegitimate birth.
Wait for the transcription...all else will be assumptions.
Cando
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It could be that she used the father's surname, or maybe just a chosen surname, considering the use of Nellie as her Christian name.
Jamjar
Yes you could be right.
Theresa was unable to give a husband's name and their date of marriage when she registered the birth. That suggests to me an illegitimate birth.
Wait for the transcription...all else will be assumptions.
Cando
I am guessing its 100 years from date of birth - so end of june next year..
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Theresa moved to QLD around 1928. Its said in family history that Richard Cecil Hart and Theresa Eva Shea turned up with a 10 year old Thomas Brian at Richards family home near Kogan QLD.
Did Richard and Teresa have any chn?
Cando
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Did Richard and Teresa have any chn?
Cando
Yes, 2 sons in QLD, 1 is dead, other still alive. He knows as much as me.
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Back :)
Hope you weren't holding your breath :)
A further question .... Rhetorical, so it is for you to ponder ... no answer needed for the forum as it is easily found via google search etc, without any need to sign in.
Who needed (rather than wanted) and why was the certificate required in 1989 ...
Anyway, I have had a return phone call from my rellie (ex senior staff at NSW BDM, retired)...
YES, there were certs issued with 'blanks' just like that. Not too many, and the practice was eventually altered, as it was not achieving the expected outcome.
Illegitimacy and Spinsterhood were two matters that were 'banned' back in the 1970s due to the mis-conception of many in the community who attached stigmas to persons whose documentation pointed out that a person was illegitimate or that a person's mum was a spinster at the time of his/her birth. It would be unusual in 1989 for anyone to actually NEED such a birth certificate, particularly as the baby had grown up, married and died under a different surname. It is likely that an earlier certified copy had been obtained back in 1977, perhaps for a returned serviceman's pension claim. It would NOT have had blanked out info.
'Everyone' became aware that those blanks covered up two words, and so the purpose of blanking out the two words (illegitimate and spinster) was lost.
You can confirm this easily by waiting until the historic registration is no longer restricted. It is restricted simply because it is less than 100 years since the birth. :) So wait until June 2018 and order official transcription. :)
The endorsement points to a likely informal fostering arrangement. :) perhaps arranged via Scaba House.
JM
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Hope you weren't holding your breath :)
Who needed (rather than wanted) and why was the certificate required in 1989 ...
Illegitimacy and Spinsterhood
The endorsement points to a likely informal fostering arrangement. :) perhaps arranged via Scaba House.
JM
Thanks for the info.
No, wasn't holding my breath. I have been looking for this stuff for years on and off.
Mum said she ordered it, just to find out what was on it. Her and her sister had found something in Thomas's belongings which said his name was Thomas Brain Beattie.
I would love to know why she had changed her name to Nellie Eva Beattie. Theresa was 28 years old when she had Thomas, so would she have cared about being a single mum and any stigma attached to it.
Theresa had told her family she was a widow and her husband was killed in the war. But if it was me, I would have either gone back to mum and dad in grafton or gone to the fathers parents for help. So yeah, maybe she didn't know who the father was, or it was a one nighter.
I guess we will never know. My mum and myself have done DNA test, which is maybe the only hope we have of finding who his father was.
Anyways thanks for all the help....
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But if it was me, I would have either gone back to mum and dad in grafton or gone to the fathers parents for help.
When my mother was unmarried and pregnant with my sister in 1953 it was her parents who sent her to a city far from home, to an unmarried mothers' home for the term of the pregnancy. She also knew who the married father was.
Not all parents are accepting of their daughters being pregnant when not married.
Theresa had told her family she was a widow and her husband was killed in the war.
She told which family? Do you have evidence that she told her parents that? Supposition only, but she may have used the name to remain incognito.
Have you considered that Theresa may not be the biological mother of Thomas? Eva as the middle name could be a coincidence.
Jamjar
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Theresa had told her family she was a widow and her husband was killed in the war.
She told which family? Do you have evidence that she told her parents that? Supposition only, but she may have used the name to remain incognito.
Have you considered that Theresa may not be the biological mother of Thomas? Eva as the middle name could be a coincidence.
Jamjar
She told her son (her last living one), and my mum had heard it from other family members and her dad (thomas), thats where I got it from.
Its true that it may not be his biological mother. But Thomas had got the information from somewhere.