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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: John19Plas on Thursday 12 October 17 23:15 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm researching my Great Uncle's WW1 army career. Prior to the war he had been a regular soldier in the 1st battalion RWF, serving as private on the North West Frontier (Relief of Chitral) and in the Boer War where he achieved the rank of corporal. He left the army in 1902, but when war broke out in 1914, he joined up with the Cheshire Regiment. I have two photos which clearly show him wearing the cap badge of the Cheshires. I also have his medals and a copy of the medal card. His number was 714, but both card and medals tell me he was in the Rifle Brigade and subsequently the Labour Corps.
Could anyone suggest why he might have moved to the Rifle Corps from the Cheshires and can his service number explain which batallions he might have served in and the date of enlisting. He first entered the theatre of War in France in December 1915 a day short of his 45th birthday. His age, I guess, explains why he was ultimately transferred to the Labour Corps.
Thanks
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Hi,
I'm researching my Great Uncle's WW1 army career. Prior to the war he had been a regular soldier in the 1st battalion RWF, serving as private on the North West Frontier (Relief of Chitral) and in the Boer War where he achieved the rank of corporal. He left the army in 1902, but when war broke out in 1914, he joined up with the Cheshire Regiment. I have two photos which clearly show him wearing the cap badge of the Cheshires. I also have his medals and a copy of the medal card. His number was 715, but both card and medals tell me he was in the Rifle Brigade and subsequently the Labour Corps.
Could anyone suggest why he might have moved to the Rifle Corps from the Cheshires and can his service number explain which batallions he might have served in and the date of enlisting. He first entered the theatre of War in France in December 1915 a day short of his 45th birthday. His ag, I guess, explains why he was ultimately transferred to the Labour Corps.
Thanks
Much more a later date but my husband served in the territorial army for 3 years then went on to serve in the guards for 12 years his army number was often queried as it was not consistant with guards reg no because it was his old number from the T/A could your G Uncle have taken/kept his original number
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Hi Jane,
Thanks for your reply. I believe Sam enlisted in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in 1889 at the age of 18. His original number was 2365. He served in India from where he returned in, I think, 1897. It's possible that he then went into the reserves until the outbreak of the Boer War two years later. In 1902 he married and settled down to a life in civvie street before volunteering again in 1915. Might he have been assigned a new number if he went on reserve in 1897?
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What was his name?
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Samuel Evans. His number was actually 714 not 715 as I first posted.
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The medal card relate only to those regiments he served overseas with so if he transferred from Cheshires prior to going overseas to the Rifle Brigade and then Labour Corps only the last two would figure on the card.
The dates you give for his first service would suggest a standard 12 year engagement, initially 7 active and 5 on the reserve but if he was overseas at 7 he would do eight active and 4 reserve. So being recalled for the Boer War makes sense as does finishing in 1902. He would have retained his original number RWF when he went on the reserve element of his first service. He would then be given a new number when he joined up in 1914 and the other number is his Labour Corps number.
Having his name and number helps! The first regiment was the Rifle Brigade not the Rifle Corps (Kings Royal Rifle Corps) they are different regiments.
Why transfer - the army put folk where they were needed at the particular time.
MaxD
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Thanks, Max! That is really very useful and clarifies a number of things. However, I've just rechecked his medal card and see that in fact he has two numbers. The 714 refers to the Rifle Brigade, whilst his LC number is given as 360619. So, just to summarise, the inscription on his WW1 medals reads "714 SJT. S. EVANS. RIF. BRIG". His service in the LC is not acknowledged. Presumably this is because the LC was considered to be less prestigious?
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A bit more research suggests that something has gone wrong with his medal records (not wholly unusual given the numbers). You are right that the card showing his RB and Lab Corps numbers etc shows the theatre of war as France but that looks like an error.
The medal roll associated with his 1914-1915 Star, to which he was later confirmed as not eligible, gives his RB battalion as 19th Battalion. I am now aware that 19th Bn was made up in late 1915 of men serving in the Supernumerary Companies of a number of Territorial Force infantry regiments, among them the Cheshires. Their task in UK was home defence, the protection of vulnerable points.
That explains his transfer from the Cheshires* to the RB more clearly.
The date to theatre in December 1915 coincides exactly with the first deployment of 19 RB overseas, not to France but to Egypt where they were to be used in a similar guarding and protection role, freeing other battalions for the fighting tasks.
There is another medal card prepared after the war when he applied for a medal (presumably the 1914/15 relating to his service in Egypt). This has his Labour Corps number and confirms he was previously 19RB. It is also useful in that it shows he was in 812 Company Labour Corps, which was in Egypt. That card is on Ancestry with the wrong Labour Corps Company number! (search S Evans 312/Labour 19th Rifle Brigade (TF). That company was formed in mid 1917 in Egypt in the Palestine Lines of Communication element of the Middle East Force, the same organisation as 19th RB was in.
As to the engraving. Men who served overseas first in the Labour Corps had Labour Corps on their medals, one who served first overseas with another regiment had the first regiment engraved. It had to do with who kept their initial records.
His ineligibility for the 1914-1915 Star, even though it seems he was in Egypt before 31 Dec 1915, may well be hidden in the (very) small print that excludes certain parts of the Egyptian theatre. The notes on the cards do not explain it. He is not the only 19 RB man later shown as non eligible. I will dig a little further on this.
MaxD
*As an aside, luckily it doesn't confuse things because we don't have his records but he will have had another number when he first joined the Cheshires, they all had their own numbering system.
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Hi Max,
I could never understand why he was ineligible for his 1914/15 star. You've solved another mystery! The fact that he appears to have served in Egypt is not entirely a surprise. My late father maintained he served in Mesopotamia and Gallipoli. He may have been nearer the mark. I also have a photo of him in what appears to be tropical uniform and with his RB cap badge visible.
Thanks once again for your help.
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With the help of friends on another forum and research into other 19 RB records, the reason for the non-eligibility for the Star for all those 19 RB men who first went overseas to Egypt on the formation of the battalion is that although they were all "on the books" of the Egypt Expeditionary Force on leaving UK (from Devonport) on 30 Dec 1915, they didn't arrive in Egypt (Alexandria) until 14 Jan 1916. They were therefore not in theatre before 31 Dec 1915 and thus not eligible. The "1" code for the theatre of war is simply a c**k up by the Rifle Brigade record office.
There is a war diary which includes 19 RB although it is not digitised, I have not found one for 812 Area Employment Company (unsurprising, few AEC kept diaries).
MaxD
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Hi Max,
I guess rules are rules. At least as far as the army is concerned. Presumably the error was spotted before the medals were awarded. Otherwise there would have been alot of disgruntled ex- servicemen! i've learnt so much about Samuel in the last week, thanks to your help. Do you know if the diary of the 19th is easily accessible.
Concerning Samuel's earlier military career, I've now discovered his obituary. From this, it appears that he first enlisted in RWF in 1889 and served seven years, first in Ireland and then India. He passed his exam as a telegraphist in 1891 and was assigned to the Telegraph Dept. Would this give a clue as to his company?He was discharged in 1896, presumably shortly after his time at the relief of Chitral. It then appears he remained in India and became a fireman on the Indian Midland Railway, before returning home after two years. Things were not too good for him as in August 1899, he was summoned before the magistrates for non payment of a shilling a week towards the maintenance of his aged father, who was being supported by the parish. This must have been shortly before he was called to the colours for service in South Africa. In March 1900, Samuel had left for South Africa, but his brother, Isaac, was summoned for the same misdemeanour. However, he escaped payment due to the fact that appeared in uniform accompanied by a lieutenant of the RWF who explained that as "the defendant having joined the Militia on embodiment, he was under the provision of the army act, he was exempt from payment". Can you explain the term "Militia on embodiment"?
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The war diary that includes 19 RB is this one http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557872 which includes a fair number of other units. It would have to be copied by Kew or by one or other of the less expensive other copying services that exist. Frankly, given that these were all essentially garrison troops guarding things, it will tell you little more than where they were and may be not even that. You could ask a researcher to check the diary for the 19 RB part and advise, doesn't come free!
I have to pass on the Telegraph Department question. This was a Indian (ie British!) civil service organisation but whether it included serving soldiers I don't know. I note his entry in the Chitral medal roll shows him in the 1st RWF but the index page on Ancestry says Telegraph Department with no explanation. There are documents at the British Library https://wiki.fibis.org/w/L/F/10_Records_of_Service_1702-1928 that may help?
The militia were a part time organisation which could be "embodied" ie called up for for full time service in times of national emergency. It looks as if Isaac wasn't a member before but when he saw the local militia being called up, he joined up.
MaxD