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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: garlands on Friday 20 October 17 16:18 BST (UK)
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William BENNETT m Elizabeth DYER on 30 Sep 1747 in Stoke Damerel, but where did they come from?
I have been unable to find any baptisms for either of them which would seem to fit both for location and period. Can anyone help, please?
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Hi George, coming from your query here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=512927.msg6360395#msg6360395
-- have you considered the possibility that one or both of them originated in Cornwall?
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/baptisms/
(and that database is not complete; FindMyPast has baptisms that are not indexed at the OPC site)
For example, between 1715 and 1732, there were 15 Eli* Dyers baptised (search for eli dyer to cover name variations).
For will bennet during the same time period, there are even more possibilities.
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Hi Janey,
In a word, no!
I suppose that I should have done, as many of my ancestors are from Cornwall, but I thought I'd got the BENNETT root largely sorted having found William BENNETT bap 6 Mar 1721 in Charles, which I wrongly assumed was Charles the Martyr, so I spent several years tracing a false root. However, I couldn't even find a false root for Eliz. DYER, so it could be that I've been looking in the wrong place all along.
Thanks for the suggestion - I'll see what Cornwall can provide.
George
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Hi Janey
I've searched from 1710 to 1732. The only likely pairing I can find is in South Hill, which is 13.8m from Stoke Damerel:-
William BENNETT bap 24 Feb 1715, father Charles
Elizabeth DYER bap 05 Apr 1718, father Richard
This would make them aged 32 and 29 when they married, so are they a bit too old to be 'my' pair, and is South Hill too far from Stoke Damerel? Your thoughts would be appreciated.
George
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Hi George, I would still be cautious. Names, especially relatively common ones, can be complete coincidences.
And the baptisms you have identified could make that pair a little old for your purposes.
I have a James Hill who died sometime between 1822 (birth of last known child) and 1835 (definite remarriage of his wife), probably in the Plymouth area. There were half a dozen &*%$ James Hills who died in that place in that period, and there is no way whatsoever to know which is mine. It's significant, because the first son's descendant's YDNA indicates that he is not from any Hill family at all, and the two sons born c1820 both had a surname for a middle name that is the surname the descendant's YDNA matches ... so I'm trying to figure out whether the James Hill married to their mother was actually their father. I will simply never know which death was his including whether he died earlier than 1822.
On his marriage in Cornwall, he gave a place of residence in southeast Devon (and the couple settled on the east side of the Tamar in Devon). So again, I have absolutely no way of knowing which of the innumerable James Hills born in Cornwall and Devon circa 1780-1800 were him, and probably never will.
Have you looked for later records in Cornwall of the William Bennett and Elizabeth Dyer baptised in South Hill? For instance, to make sure that one of them didn't die in infancy, or there isn't a later burial record that matches by age at death? What about other children of the same parents, and whether there are records to match them either in the area where they were born or in the area where your William and Elizabeth married?
One thing you might do is contact the online parish clerk for South Hill, who is very knowledgable and very helpful.
http://www.opc-cornwall.org/Par_new/q_s/south_hill.php
Tell her I sent you. ;)
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Janey,
Thanks for that.
I've e-mailed the South Hill opc, so we'll see what happens
George
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The OPC for South Hill has asked for dates and locations of children’s births and names.
It could be that it was a second marriage for both, hence the ages but we will see.
Fizzy
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The only offspring I have is my lineal ancestor:-
Elizabeth BENNETT bap 27 Oct 1756 in Stoke Damerel
There may or may not be others - I haven't searched for them
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Janey,
Sue has eliminated both of my South Hill possible ancestors, so my search for William BENNETT and Elizabeth DYER continues
George
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She has a bad habit of doing that, I know. ;D
If I come up with any brilliant theories, I will let you know, but at this point ... nothing, I'm afraid.
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I told her it was only President Bush-style false news, but I'm afraid she was not convinced!
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As suggested by Sue, I have e-mailed the Record Office in Exeter to find out if they have a 'proper record' of this marriage, which might give me more information.
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Devon Archives have just replied stating that they hope to respond within 10 working days!
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Apparently, the charge is £8 so, if I can navigate my way through the form-filling and payment procedure, I'll have a go.
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My £8 only produced a copy of the BT, so I'm none the wiser.
I've asked them if I can obtain a copy of the original register entry, so we'll see what happens.
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Apparently, the charge is £6 including postage, so I've placed an order.
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Probably the best you can hope for is a witness with the same surname (and then the job of figuring out the connection), or an indication of the marital status of the spouses.
Which marriage is this that you are getting the record of?
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Stoke Damerel, 30 Sep 1747, William BENNETT to Elizabeth DYER.
I can't get any further back for either of them, so I'm hoping that the full register entry will provide a clue or two.
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So ... another question going back to the beginning.
You've identified this couple as your ancestors - how?
Baptisms at that time did not ordinarily give the mother's previous surname.
Your ancestor was a child of a William Bennett & Elizabeth? and baptised after 1747 in Stoke Damerel, presumably.
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Janey,
Baptism in Stoke Damerel, 27th Oct 1756, Elizabeth dr of William & Elizabeth BENNETT
The only marriage I have been able to find which appears to satisfy both the parental names and also probable location is the one in question
George
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Stoke Damerel, 30 Sep 1747, William BENNETT to Elizabeth DYER.
I can't get any further back for either of them, so I'm hoping that the full register entry will provide a clue or two.
Rather than buy individual photocopies from the RO, why not take out a subscription with FindMyPast. They have images of many Devon registers and even the minimum £7 PAYG will get you 5 or 6. The above marriage is available, but I'm afraid it has no further details.
David
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David,
Thanks.
Do they have all of Stoke Damerel?
George
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Do they have all of Stoke Damerel?
Yes, according to this:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/devon-parish-records-coverage
Sometimes there are gaps in the coverage quoted, and sometimes no images but just a transcription/index, but as far as I can see they have images for at least 18th century Stoke Damerel.
You can search the indexes without paying, and the results show if an image is available.
David
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David,
Many thanks. It could be worth a dabble. I might treat myself for Christmas!
Do you know if any other site has a better coverage for 18th century parish records?
George
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Hi George
Hope you are well.
This is all that the site mentioned has apart from the transcript. One other little thing, three months later on the 3 December a Mary DYER married a John Greenfield. I know they are relatively common surnames, but possibly a sibling of Elizabeth.
Claire
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Hi Claire,
Thanks for your good wishes, and I hope that you too are in good health. Yes, I'm well, and we've successfully completed our move to Devon, including last year's Diamond Wedding card from the Queen which I have to keep on display! I am receiving plenty of family help in looking after my wife, thus giving me some free time to dabble in family history.
I was hoping that the original register entry might contain the odd clue, such as 'otp' or 'spinster'. I'm waiting for the copy to arrive from the Plymouth RO. Your mention of Mary DYER might also lead somewhere; I shall certainly see what I can find - thank you.
All the best
George
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Hi Claire,
I've just been hunting for Mary DYER's marriage, without success. Where did you find it?
George
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Hi Claire,
Forget my last query. I've now found it with the spelling DIER!!! Sorry
George
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No problem George
And congratulations to you both on your Diamond Wedding Anniversary - even though it's a tad late :) :)
And lovely making a move to Devon, such a beautiful place :)
Claire
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I have a Peter King who married a Peggy Dyer from Landrake in 1823. Peter Kings sister Mary King was buried at Stoke Damerel. The Kings are also associated with Black Torrington and Devonport.
Any connection ?
cheers
Jack Gee
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Hi Jack,
In all probability, there is a connection, but my DYER root finished in 1747 when Elizabeth married William BENNETT. Landrake is only 6 miles from Stoke Damerel, and maybe where my DYERs originated. I'll do some work on the possibility.
George
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Thanks garlands for your prompt reply.
I can offer this -
Peter King born circa 1731, married Mary unknown of Black Torrington, he died circa 1772 in Black Torrington . Their son - Charles King born circa 1767, he married Susana [maybe Lammas?] at St.Duncan Stepney. Their children were Mary, Thomas, & Peter. Mary Christened Stoke Damerel, Thomas born 1797 Devonport, married Mary unknown. Peter King born Devon, married Peggy [Margaret] Dyer 17.4.1823Landrake. he died 1881 Morphett Vale - South Australia. Peggy was baptised 1804 Landrake, she died 1886.
cheers Jack
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Hi Claire,
Regarding Mary DYER or DIER, there are so few instances of the surname in Stoke Damerel at that time that the odds are she is Elizabeth's sister. Accordingly, I have been looking for such a pairing. So far, the only instance I've found in Devon is in Tiverton (Mary bp 13 Jun 1722; Elizabeth bp 27 Jan 1728), father Isaac DYER. With Tiverton being nearly 50 miles from Stoke Damerel, is this too far for all practical purposes? This would mean Elizabeth was 19 when she married, so that would not rule her out.
Incidentally, Isaac baptized another Elizabeth on 20 Nov 1726, which would tend to point to Isacc's wife also being called Elizabeth.
As there are far more DYERs in Cornwall, I think I'm going to have to repeat this exercise over the Tamar. Any thoughts?
George
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Hi George
I found it odd the couple don't seem to have any more children in Stoke Damerel, have you found any ?
There are numerous Bennetts and Dyers in the registers but no Elizabeths as you say.
And I can't see burials or marriages for the two (Ellizabeth & Mary) in Tiverton
Cornwall seems the more likely, I have ancestors born in Saltash who ended up living/marrying and buried in Stoke Damerel and vice versa. I would certainly do a search there.
It's a very difficult search though.
It's a pity the Stoke Damerel records dont have ages on the burial records, we may have had a better chance of nailing them down.
Claire
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Hi Claire,
I agree; there must surely be other DYER children somewhere. I'll continue looking in and around Stoke Damerel.
As you've found no further trace of Elizabeth and Mary in Tiverton, perhaps they did move to Devonport. I'll see if I can find any more clues before crossing the river.
George
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Jack,
If there is a connection between our DYER roots, Mary and Elizabeth must have had at least one brother, and the pair in Tiverton certainly did:-
17 Jul 1721 bap of Isaac s of Isaac (born 11 Jun 1721)
19 Dec 1722 burial of Isaac
17 May 1725 bap of Isaac s of Isaac
Of course, this proves nothing but it does not rule out a connection.
So far, I have not found a burial for Isaac, the father of this family.
George
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I think that I've now found a possible burial of Isaac DYER, unfortunately not, as I had hoped, in Stoke Damerel but in Cullompton which is only just over 5 miles from Tiverton.
05 Apr 1768, Cullompton, burial of Isaac DYER
and also of his son of 1725
31 Dec 1797, Cullompton, burial of Isaac DYER
I think that these burials suggest that this DYER family is not the Stoke Damerel family, so the search continues.
Incidentally, if anyone is interested, Isaac senior had an earlier son, viz:-
13 Aug 1718, Abraham, son of Isaac DYER, and
22 Aug 1718, burial of Abraham DYER
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Thanks Garlands - who knows what might turn up. It adds to the adventure. I am enjoying the thread.
cheers
Jack
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Jack,
Who knows, indeed. So far, I've found two Mary/Elizabeth pairings in Cornwall, but I've got more work to do.
George
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I now have 7 possible Elizabeth/Mary pairings in Cornwall, with baptismal dates between 1716 and 1730. None is an obvious fit, so I'm going to have to try to eliminate as many as I can.
If anyone wants the details, let me know.
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Two of my 'possible' families were in living Roche, and I believe that I can now eliminate them. Fortunately, they contained some less-common christian names and these have enabled me to be pretty confident that the families remained in Roche during the relevant years.
Only five more to check!
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The next family is from St Gluvias and is the furthest from Stoke Damerel at about 43 miles, so probably the least likely to be 'my' family. However, if anyone connected to this family can let me know, it will help in the elimination process.
What I have is:-
05 Dec 1720 Elizabeth d of Hobson & Elizabeth DYER
03 May 1723 Hobson s of do do do
04 Jul 1727 Valentine s of do do do
23 May 1731 Mary d of do do do
Thanks
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I have now eliminated the St Gluvias DYER family from my search for Elizabeth DYER. In case anyone is interested, this is what I have:-
Parents were Hopson and Elizabeth. Elizabeth was buried 14 Dec 1735 and Hopson re-married Mary EDWARDS on 31 Jul 1736. He died in 1757 aged 62 and was buried on 28 Oct 1757.
Daughter Elizabeth m Hugh JOB on 28 Jul 1751
Son Hopson was buried 27 Mar 1757
Son Valentine m Joan ROBINS on 31 May 1752 in Budock
Daughter Mary m Abraham BYTHEWOOD on 13 Feb 1759 in Mylor
Unless otherwise stated, all events occured in St Gluvias.
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For one reason or another, in all the instances which I have found where a DYER family contains both an Elizabeth and a Mary born in the same parish, they cannot have ended-up in Stoke Damerel. I can only assume. therefore, that Mary and Elizabeth were born in different parishes, which complicates things more than somewhat! The search continues.
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I think I might have cracked the DYER half of my original query, so here is my proposed solution for consideration and comment.
Elizabeth, and her believed sister, Mary, were both married in 1747 in Stoke Damerel. Assuming they were both over 21, one would expect that they were born in the mid-1720's. They were not born in Devonport, but what if some of their siblings were? A search of Stoke Damerel in that decade unearthed only two DYER baptisms, both to John and Elizabeth DYER. A hopeful sign; could this Elizabeth be the mother of 'my' Elizabeth?
A search in both Cornwall and Devon came up with only one marriage of a John DYER to an Elizabeth in the relevant period:-
08 Aug 1714, John DYER m Elizabeth DOUBT in Lanteglos-by-Fowey, some 19m from Stoke Damerel, where they had 5 children:-
10 Jul 1757 Elizabeth
?? Feb 1716 John
?? Oct 1718 a daughter
05 Nov 1719 Joseph
01 Apr 1722 Adam
They then moved to Brixton (25m), where they had one child:-
25 Feb 1724 Mary (yippee, now both the names I want!!!)
This was followed by a (possibly) final move to Stoke Damerel (a mere 6m) where they baptized 2 more children:-
18 Jul 1725 John
14 Sep 1729 Anna
I appreciate that this does not end the story, and I would appreciate your comments and/or criticisms.
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Well done George, that was a hard task. I think you could be correct. Although checking the other siblings of Elizabeth to see what happened to them might be an option.
I am assuming, looking at your surname interests that Elizabeth Bennett ( daughter of Elizabeth Dyer) went on to marry William Snell in 1777 ?
Sometimes names from family get to be passed down through the generations and the couple do have an ANNA.
I have noticed other Dyers around this timeframe baptising children too in Stoke Damerel - including a John, Edmund and an Ann.
Claire
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You're right, Claire, I do have a lot of cross-checking to do, but I wanted to put my findings out there before I go any further, in case I get shot down again. As it is, I'm delighted to have your support, which will make me feel that doing further work will not be a waste of time.
Yes, Elizabeth BENNETT did indeed marry William SNELL in 1777; I've managed to trace that surname back to around 1640. It occurs in my family as recently as 1905, when my maternal great grandfather George Paul Snell GARLAND died.
Thanks for pointing out the connection to Anna. I almost certainly would not have noticed as I have her recorded as Hannah. Whatever, the connection must be quite strong as Elizabeth SNELL (nee BENNETT) used the name twice, the first time in 1791 then again in 1794.
Sincerely
George
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Claire,
Where did you find the marriage of Mary DYER to John GREENFIELD? I've searched FindMyPast, FreeReg and the IGI with no luck. What am I doing wrong?
George
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Hi George
You aren't doing anything wrong, I only found it by chance on F M P. I couldn't find Elizabeth's marriage entry either (just a transcript) but after searching through the collection 'Devon, Plymouth & West Devon Parish Registers' - found that the Composite register for Stoke Damerel was actually online. It can be found on page 108 of 239.
Mary (as was Elizabeth's) surname was transcribed as DIER, although the image is quite plainly DYER for both women.
Claire
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Thanks, Claire, especial for the copy. The entry I have found only gives the year, not the exact date. Why???
George
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I think you were possibly looking at Boyd's Marriage Index, which is what I was originally looking at.
BMI describes records as - ' the marriage record entries contain the first and last name of the bride and groom, the year, county and parish where the marriage took place, and source of the record.'
Claire
At least we found it :D
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It looks like Boyd's Marriage Index is only to be used as a last resort. I hadn't realized it did not provide an exact date.
Thanks
George
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I've been looking for events which might strengthen the view that we have found the right DYER family, starting with the less common christian names, starting with Joseph. I could not find a death, but there is a likely marriage:-
17 Feb 1749/50 Joseph DYER m Mary AVERY in Maker
I know Maker is in Cornwall, but it's only just over 2 miles from Stoke Damerel, and I can find no other record of Joseph, so I think he's our man.
Comments, please.
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Not sure my comments may help
There is a Joseph Dyer and wife Sabina who baptise a Catherine & a Mary in 1750 and 1753 Stoke Dameral.
:-\
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Claire,
Rest assured, your comments most certainly do help.This Joseph DYER is a much better choice than the one I found, but how on earth did you manage to find him? I've just done another search and he still does not appear.
I've tried using the Devon, Plymouth and West Devon site you mentioned, but it keeps sending me back to FindMyPast.
George
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Hi George
I'm using F M P. I just did a search of the surname DYER born 1750 +/- 40 years in Stoke Damerel, there were 538 mixed results, without using any variant surname.
Using the advanced search you can just search 'parish baptisms' with fathers forename Joseph.
They only appear as transcriptions- although the Composite register covers those years, I'll check later (after work) see if there is any additional information in the actual register.
Claire
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Claire,
I thought that's what I had done! Obviously, I'd missed a trick somewhere along the line. I'll have another attempt later.
George
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I have found Joseph's two children, but no trace of his marriage to Sabera/Sabina
George
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Hi George
I can't see a marriage either. But there are two Joseph Dyer deaths in Stoke Damerel, I'm wondering if one of these is the father to Catherine & Mary.
Catherine died c1760 but Mary did marry in 1783. She had a daughter Sabina Dyer Eathorne in 1786 so I'm thinking the family stayed in Stoke Damerel.
Still searching :)
Claire
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Hi George
Have found something else that needs looking at
Marriage in Stoke Damerel
John DIER mar. Elizabeth HAWKINS by Banns 27th August 1724 (transcribed as Dier, - DYER in image)
Possibly these are the parents of John & Anna.
Claire
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Claire,
You've certainly been busy. Let me digest what you've found and I'll come back to you.
George
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Hi Claire,
Concerning Joseph DYER, I had tentatively gone for the burial on 30 Jan 1758. Fortunately, as long as it's after the birth of his daughters, it is of no great importance which one we choose; Stoke Damerel is the important thing. It's a nuisance that we can't find the marriage.
The name of Mary's daughter fits in beautifully with all the other details you've found.
Thank you.
George
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Hi George
As there doesn't seem to be any more children born to Joseph & Sabina I think in all probability the burial in 1758 seems likely to be the father Joseph, the parish register isn't at all informative.
I have also found two other male 'Dyer's' in the registers that marry c1750 - Peter & Benjamin- like Elizabeth I can't pin down baptisms for.
I've wondered if they just weren't baptised or there is an element of Non Conformity in the family.
Claire
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Forgot to add, I went through the register from 1724-1734 for any sign of Mary & Elizabeth but nothing. May try earlier for any Dyers that may have been missed.
Claire
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Claire,
If you're right, and I believe you are, then John and Anna's mother is Elizabeth HAWKINS, not Elizabeth DOUBT; so that removes all doubt (sorry! Couldn't resist) from that DYER family. Elizabeth DOUBT remains as the mother of my ancestor Elizabeth (10 Jul 1715), Joseph, Mary et al in Lanteglos-by-Fowey and Brixton. Do you agree?
George
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Claire,
Sorry, somehow I missed your post re your search of the register from 1724-34. It would have been wonderful if you had found Elizabeth and Mary. I've searched on-line without success, which is why I've ended up with the Lanteglos-by-Fowey family; a family in Stoke Damerel would be a much nicer solution but, as Holmes would say "when you have eliminated the possible, whatever is left, no matter how unlikely, must be the solution".
George
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Hi George
I've now searched the registers from 1707-1724 no Elizabeth or Mary there. So it definitely looks like they were born somewhere else.
I have found a Dyer family (headed by a William & Mary) in the Plymouth Presbyterian records. They did have a daughter Mary but no Elizabeth.
The John & Elizabeth in Stoke Damerel also had a daughter Elizabeth in 1736 - so a bit late for what you need.
Claire
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Hi Claire,
Thanks for all that research; it would have been great to have come up with Elizabeth and Mary but, as you say, it definitely looks like they were born elsewhere.
It appears that at least three members of the Lanteglos-by-Fowey/Brixton family (Elizabeth, Mary and Joseph) eventually reached Devonport. Two of the others (John and the un-named female) did not reach adulthood, and we have found no trace of Adam, neither a burial nor a marriage; perhaps he went to sea or joined the army. Barring any evidence to the contrary, I propose to add this family to my DYER roots. Elizabeth's husband, William BENNETT, will, I suspect, be as far back as I can get on that side; there are simply too many possible candidates, but I shall continue looking, as I shall for further DYER roots.
Is it time to close this thread?
George
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Hi George
I wouldn't post it as completed - you never know what records may come online. I'm always on the look-out for Devon/Cornwall records for my errant ancestors. I shall add the Dyers to my list ;)
Funny, I can't find any mention of Adam Dyer at all in any record.
The joys of genealogy George :)
Claire
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Claire,
I don't know where I found Adam DYER. I'll see if I can re-trace my steps and let you know.
George
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Claire,
I've just done a search for Adam DYER in all my usual places and failed to find him. However, a search for DYER baptisms in Lanteglos-by-Fowey on the IGI from 1720 to 1725 brought him up as the second record. Don't ask me to explain!
George
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Claire,
I've had another search for the marriage of Joseph DYER, but still with no luck. Although I found over 50 instances of the name Sabina, my impression is that the majority of them popped-up in overseas marriages, so I reckon there's a good chance that Joseph met and married his Sabina outside this country. Perhaps both he and Adam joined the army. Anyway, neither is a lineal ancestor, so I'll just write-up what we've found and leave it at that.
George
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Possibly, a final entry on this topic. I don't know when Devonport became one of the country's principal naval ports, but I guess that the move of the DYER family to that location could have been the cause, or result, of Joseph and Adam joining the navy rather than the army. If they did, I know from my researches at Kew that the naval records there are excellent so, if anyone wants to find them, it would be a good place to start.
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There was some data missing from my listing of the DYER family in Lanteglos-by-Fowey.
John was bap on 24 Feb 1716 and buried on 11 May 1721
The un-named female was actually bap Mary on 14 Oct 1718 and buried on 6 Nov 1718.
Other than the parents, none of the family was married in Lanteglos-by-Fowey.
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Hi George
Seasons Greetings :)
The two daughters of Joseph & Sabina married men who worked at the dockyard, so possibly the Dyers would move there for work, I know my ancestors in that area ( and in Saltash) worked on the docks or were Mariners.
Claire
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Hi Claire
Thank you for that info, and all your help this year.
A very merry Christmas to you.
George
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Hi Claire'
I believe that I have now found William BENNETT, viz:-
25 Feb 1722 William son of Joseph & Katherine BENNETT, Saltash
Saltash to Stoke Damerel is only 3 miles.
I've not found his death or marriage elsewhere; surely, this is the man I want?
George
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I cannot find a marriage for Joseph BENNETT and Katherine ??? which, presumably, would have taken place prior to 1722.
Can anyone help, please?
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To help in my search, I've been looking for Elizabeth BENNETT's siblings in the hope that their names would enable me more precisely to identify her roots, but with a total lack of success. As mentioned previously, her parents married in 1747, and she was baptized in 1756. It seems incredible that she was the only child but, if not, where are the others? Can anyone help, please?