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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: George. on Saturday 21 October 17 12:43 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Will someone kindly identify this badge please?
Thanks.
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The cypher in the centre is that of Queen Victoria, can't (yet) identify the regiment.
MaxD
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Found this, it has reference to several regiments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_soit_qui_mal_y_pense
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Hello Max/Medmat,
Now you have said that it appears obviously VR but what is the final letter, an I? Also I'm a bit confused as it was in a small box of items that my father kept after WWII. He was in the Royal Engineers and one of their mottos was Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense, according to Medmat's link, but why would be have a Victorian badge?
The box contained his medals, RE cap badge, a short diary, and this badge. As there were no other badges I doubt that he collected them.
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Could it have been a relative father/grandfather's badge?
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The final letter is indeed an I - for Imperatrix added to VR when she became Empress of India.
The Royal Engineers in that era as far as I can determine had the words Royal Engineers around the garter and I haven't seen one without a laurel wreath so I'd hesitate to say I know what it is.
MaxD
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Hi, could it be the "Household Cavalry"?
Frank.
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Frank I have seen (as perhaps you have) a similar badge entitled Household cavalry but their vagaries of dress and insignia are for me at least, best left to a specialist in those regiments!
MaxD
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Good evening,
As an ex cavalryman I would have said household cavalry. However, my searches have turned up no victorian badges for those 3 regts. The earliest I can find is George V.
5th dragoon guards was almost identical but but had the cypher of Princess of Wales if I remember correctly. That was not their cap badge though but a badge used on horse harness etc but same size as cap badge.
Wish I had seen this earlier as I was in the library where they have a very good selection of books on cap badges and insignia.
John915
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Good evening,
Have been searching everything I can find for this badge. I just realised what was/is bugging me about it.
Kings crown so should not have Victoria's cypher. But neither is it George V or George VI who both used variations of GR.
Most household cavalry badges I have looked at had the name of the regt and not the motto around the garter. There are some that do have the motto but they have GR in the centre.
John915
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John - I was/am also bugged by something else (agree about the crown by the way). I had also noted the similar badge on the horse furniture.
The cypher doesn't look right. It looks "weedy" not as robust as the rest of the badge and as other centre pieces are. So here's the overnight theory - it is a fake. Someone (not the OP's father I am sure) with a little bit of skill has taken a badge with a GR cypher. knocked out the middle and substituted a home made VRI cypher.
How ''bout them apples?
MaxD
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Good afternoon gentlemen,
Having read your posts I admit that it does appear strange. In the hope of progressing the problem I attach a photograph of the back of the badge. Also, if it helps, the badge is 1¾" tall by 1 and 1 sixteenth" across.
If it is a fake it does seem a great deal of effort for something that is so small and, assuming that my father had it from around the time of WWII, why bother. It will just mean that I won't include it when I have his medals and photograph framed and mounted.
George
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The cypher doesn't look right. It looks "weedy" not as robust as the rest of the badge and as other centre pieces are. So here's the overnight theory - it is a fake. Someone (not the OP's father I am sure) with a little bit of skill has taken a badge with a GR cypher. knocked out the middle and substituted a home made VRI cypher.
How ''bout them apples?
MaxD
That's a very good theory MaxD, I looked and searched till late last night and couldn't find anything like it.
I wonder if George could upload a photo of the back to see if it could offer any more clues.
Frank.
ADDED: Couldn't believe my eyes George, posts must have crossed.
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George, looking again at the photographs, I am now of the opinion that it's not been "Cobbled" together, I think looking at the rear discounts that theory, also on enlarging the first photograph the wear on the cypher looks to coincide with the wear on the rest of the badge.
It's a strange one, I'm sure MaxD, John915, and others will be along to offer advice.
Frank.
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The back certainly looks as if my theory is blown out of the water - no problem with that! It does look all of a piece.
Back to your library John!
Whatever, it is certainly not connected with George's father's WW2 service.
MaxD
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Good afternoon,
After a little more research online ( not always 100% accurate) I have found out the following.
On digger history thay say that Victoria used both crowns at different times. Not sure that's true.
On the military badge forum they say the VRI was only used in India. No british regts used it, only VR, this concurs with my own research which shows that to be true.
I would have said no to your theory about cobbling together MaxD. To remain a brass colour it would have to be hard soldered ( brazing) which would require a lot of heat. The garter shows no loss of detail and braze is never exactly the same colour as brass.
John915
PS, I see that question is now resolved anyway.
PPS, Some Canadian badges have VRI but in block letters not as a cypher.
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Hello John,
For what it's worth, my father served in India 06/06/1945-07/10/1946.
George
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Apart from some Indian Regiments, the VRI cypher was also used by the 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers?
Their cap badge, and collars, were apparently issued with the King's Crown from 1902?
(From a 2010 post on the British Badge Forum)
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Back again,
They never had a cap badge with that cypher though KG. They had crossed lances with VRI in a different format, can't remember tbe name of that style. Will try to find their harness furniture.
The kings crown was because Edward VII was on the throne from 1901.
John915
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Is this information of any use?
My father served with Queen Victoria's Own Madras Sappers and Miners Group Indian Engineers.
George
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Back again,
OK, got it. Can't do a link on here but google "Queen Victorias own Madras sappers and miners badges".
Scroll down to pictures and it is the first two pictures, back and front. 2nd regt/batt shown but 1st is probably the same.
IWM site also has it but no pictures. Description matches exactly though.
John915
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Well done John, found it also on here about half way down: http://www.batesandhindmarch.com/showroom/manuscripts-and-ephemera
George - very happy to eat my words - it does indeed relate to your father's time!
MaxD
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Hell John/Max,
Absolutely great and very well done gentlemen. I do appreciate all the interest and effort involved and am pleased that I will be able to include the badge in the display.
Thanks again,
George
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And again,
That's a good one MaxD, you can see the letters in the cypher so much clearer than on the badges. There are an awful lot of cyphers out there that be a real problem unless you really know what you are looking at alphabetically.
John915
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Back again,
OK, got it. Can't do a link on here but google "Queen Victorias own Madras sappers and miners badges".
Scroll down to pictures and it is the first two pictures, back and front. 2nd regt/batt shown but 1st is probably the same.
IWM site also has it but no pictures. Description matches exactly though.
John915
Well done John, found it also on here about half way down: http://www.batesandhindmarch.com/showroom/manuscripts-and-ephemera
George - very happy to eat my words - it does indeed relate to your father's time!
MaxD
Great result, I love it.
Frank.
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Very enjoyable - again (despite my diversion into fantasy land!)
MaxD
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Well, I did say "some Indian Regiments"!! ;D ;D ;D
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Max/John,
You have been extremely helpful so far, and I hesitate to ask for further assistance, but I've just come across this badge, it's 2¼" x 1½" and I wonder if you can identify it for me please?
Thank you
George
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Easy one this time - assuming WW2 era and RE that is the badge of appointment of a Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant. His rank was Warrant Officer Class II. Ranked above the three/four Company/Squadron Sergeant Majors.
MaxD
See my later post
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I'm pleased that one was easy but it has confused me somewhat.
My father's record states that he was appointed Acting Warrant Officer Class II* and Company Sergeant Major on 22nd June 1946 but there is a photograph taken on 2nd June 1946 that clearly states he has that rank.
How does that fit with the RQSM badge? I have a very vague recollection from when I was very young that my father did mention being a RSM, but it may have been a RQSM, whatever the difference is.
Also, the typed copy of his record that I have omitted that he had the France-Germany Star. I queried that with the MOD and they confirmed that he had been awarded that Star. It just makes me wonder if something else was omitted when the record was being typed out.
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Just a thought prompted by KGs earlier signpost to India.
I had been looking on the type of cypher purely as an indicator of which monarch was on the throne at the time. It is now clear to me that in this case, and I found at least two others in India, that the cypher is there because the title of the regiment is "Queen Victoria's Own.......". This is probably old hat to the medal buffs but I am tucking the thought away for future reference.
KG cited the (British) 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers who did indeed use the cypher (although not inside the garter) in that fashion.
MaxD
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Good morning,
It is possible that the wrong date was put on his records if you have photographic evidence that says otherwise. Quite easy to put in an extra "2" .
His rank would have been WO2, he would then have had different appointments. So company sgt major, regtl quartermaster sgt etc are appointments not rank. RQMS is the senior WO2 and 2nd senior WO in a regt after the RSM (WO1) and is usually the deputy RSM.
John915
Added, some regts did things slightly differently. In my old regt RQMS held the rank of WO1.
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George
I have modified my earlier post. I think I have my time frames mixed up.
The rank for a CSM and an RQMS is Warrant Officer Class II and his photo would confirm that he was wearing the crown surrounded by the laurel wreath which at that time was worn by the CSM.
If he was appointed RQMS or RSM (the former the senior supplier/logistics man, the latter the senior man manager) then his docs have missed it.
Sorry to confuse.
MaxD
PS - Could someone please confirm what badge an RQMS wore in that era (1946). John???
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Back again,
The badge shown is correct for RQMS. I'm not 100% certain whether the laurel around the WO2 crown was to show seniority or appointment.
WO2 rank was created in 1915 and was given the larger crown (Edwards?) as a distinguishing mark. My searches show that the laurel was used from then for RQMS appointment.
Again, whilst some units did there own thing by tradition, coy, sqdn, batt SM etc should only be wearing the crown with no laurel.
John915
Added, I have to correct the above, crown with laurel is WO2 as MaxD said. Crown alone seems to have been the very short lived rank of WO3. Done away with in 1940. As I said before, online searches are not always 100% accurate. One site will tell you something and another contradicts that info. John
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Things are much clearer now, but where would the RQMS badge be worn, on a cap I assume?
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Back again,
The rank badge is worn on the lower right sleeve.
I think I should clarify we are only talking WW2 for this rank badge. Prior to 1938 and after 1947 WO2 is a crown with no wreath. The wreath was added between those dates to distinguish from the short lived WO3 rank ( platoon sgt maj). John
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Hello John/Max,
Once again, very many thanks for your help. What a wonderful source of information Rootschat provides through the kindness and generosity of its members.
George