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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Essnell on Tuesday 24 October 17 02:02 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
I would like to find any relatives of Jabez Crabtree who was living in Bingley during 1880's. particularly 1886.
He was a Grocer, Dentist and, I believe, an Overseer in one of the mills.
When my Great-grandmother died he took in my grandmother in 1886 as a servant, she was 13 yrs old. He was also one signatory to a Stat. Dec. re my Great-grandmother's relationship to the said husband and to her actual name.
I would like to see if anyone in the Crabtree family can help here with ideas or info.
Essnell
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Hi would this be the Crabtree household in 1891 census:-
Jabez Crabtree 56 occ Grocer & Dentist
Hannah 53
Mary E 18
Ellen Craggs 17 occ Domestic Servant
Residing at Mill Street, Bingley
Census Ref RG12/3534/144/19
Keyboard86
EDIT Jabez Crabtree who married Hannah Sugden March qtr 1857 Keighley, appear to have had only two daughters Sarah Ann b 1859 Halifax and Mary Ellen b 1872 Keighley.
In 1901 census, Jabez aged 66 b Oxenhope is a Surgeon/Dentist, wife Hannah 63 occ Family Grocer
Census ref RG13/4071/172/25
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Hi Keyboard86,
Yes yes yes!!!!! This is the person and more so than you could ever imagine.
Let me explain. [This is going to be long so be patient]
1. I knew about this entry with Mary His daughter and Ellen Craggs the 17 yr old Servant.
2. The Servant girl, Ellen Craggs is my Grandmother. Her mother was Fanny Craggs.
3. Ellen Craggs left England in 1900 to immigrate to Australia.
4. Ellen didn't tell us much about her family and sadly we didn't ask enough. She died when I. . was just 21yrs old.
5. She sometimes spoke about one of the younger boys in the family being burnt when his clothes caught fire. I don't know which one that was.
6. For years I have been trying to find the father of Ellen and her 4 siblings and another child she spoke about named Sarah Ann Kelly.
Whoa!! This information that you have about this older daughter of Jabez Crabtree, Sarah Ann !!!!.
Grandma said that her mother wanted to get married and that Sarah Ann didn't like that idea very much as her father would then be a navie.
The Father of the children listed with Fanny Craggs 1881 appears to be John Craggs - as is on two of the Birth Certificates. His occupation is "Stone Mason" and these details are also on my grandmother's death Cert here in Australia.
Grandma returned to England for a holiday in 1912/3 she returned to Australia on the last passenger ship before WW1 broke out.
One other bit of interest:
Fanny Craggs died on the 10 Dec 1886 and was buried on the 15th but I don't know where.
Joseph Crabtree [16yrs of age] gave the required details for a death cert. which was issued in the name of Fanny Craggs.
On the 6th January 1887 Jabez Crabtree and Joseph Craggs made a statutory declaration that those details were incorrect and a subsequent entry was made in the name of Fanny Kelly. The name was to be now read as "Fanny Craggs otherwise Kelly" and that "Wife of John Craggs Stone Mason" was to read "Housekeeper".
I am currently trying to get information from GRO about this Statutory Declaration.
How interesting.
Thanks so much Keyboard86 - you have made my day if not the whole last 10 years!!!
Cheers Essnell
I had deduced that "Sarah Ann" would have been born early enough to understand the implications, but I didn't think she would have been 20yrs.. It was also said that she S-A married a Doctor and wanted to take the two younger boys to the USA with her. Now that is still a family story to verify.
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GRO won't have any information about the Statutory Declaration - that is just a witnessed statement needed to support an application for certain corrections to a register entry.
If the local Superintendent Registrar asked for the Registrar General's advice or authority for the change then there might be correspondence in RG48 at the National Archives ( but very, very unlikely), or in the local archives if they have any Supt Registrar's correspondence in their records (many don't).
The correction is a straightforward one .... it shows that at first, information was given that at the time of her death she was married to John CRAGGS, and that he was still living (otherwise she would have been "widow of.."
The correction makes it clear she was unmarried and that she was also known by the name KELLY.
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Hi again, still interesting the Craggs family, this hopefully is Ellen in 1881 census:-
Fanny Craggs 44 Married occ Lodging House Keeper b Nottinghamshire
Joseph 11 b Sheffield
Annie 8
ELLEN 7
William 6
James 5
Residing at 5, Abbeystead Huts, Over, Wyresdale, Lancaster
Census ref RG11/4261/10/2
In 1891 an Annie Craggs 19 b Sheffield is a Millhand Worsted with a James/Rachel Powley at Town Gate, Bingley
Census ref RG12/3534/142/16
? Why do all with exception at present of Annie, show mmn Massey in Aysgarth/Sheffield or Mansfield
Keyboard86
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Hi again, maybe you could confirm that Annie Craggs married a James Lambert Sept qtr 1892 Keighley 9a 333
1901 census:-
James Lambert 30 b Bradford
Annie 29 b Sheffield
Fanny 8
George 6
Thomas 5
Violet 4
Ellen 1
All children b Cullingworth
Residing at 3, Turf Lane, Cullingworth, Bingley
Census ref RG13/4071/161/4
Keyboard86
EDIT from later return Annie b 13th November 1871
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Hi again, possibly for my notes, the Joseph Craggs b 1870 Mansfield mmn Massey, from his Army Service record in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers had a father John living at 52, Portland Street, Duke Street, Runcorn, served for many years, and his death was as Joseph CRAGG 5th January 1943 St Luke's Hospital occ Stone Quarrier, Widow C ( Clara) Cragg, 1316, Thornton Road, Leaventhorpe, Bradford, Yorkshire
Keyboard86
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In 1881, the "Abbeystead Huts" would have been occupied by workers building the Abbeystead Reservoir for Lancaster Corporation.
Running such huts on civil engineering sites seems to have been a recognised job. These people moved from one site to another, often along with the tradesmen from the hut.
Keeping a bunch of navvies in line must have taken some effort!
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Could Fanny have been Fanny Massey, married a Mr Kelly, had daughter Sarah Ann, then separated. Then met John Craggs, lived with as wife but unable to marry because she was still married to Mr Kelly.
Tracked back Jabez Crabtree, cam from Haworth and was baptised by Reverend Bronte. Can't see he's a relative at all.
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:) Hi tried that, if only I could locate the birth registration of Annie b Dec qtr 1871 with mmn something like Massey, would answer all potential births in 1881 census?
Annie Craggs/Lambert was by census ref close to Ellen Craggs in 1891 Bingley?
Keyboard86
PS the OP has two birth certificates with John Craggs being a Stone Mason, was Fanny shown as a Kelly?
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:) OK another route, in 1891 census on FindMyPast Ellen Craggs was shown as b 1874 something like HEALVES, Anc**** show pob as Hawes, this is the Ellen Craggs b Aysgarth mmn Massey if Hawes is correct?
Keyboard86
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OK can agree with death of Fanny Craggs and Fanny Kelly Dec qtr 1886 Keighley 9a 125 aged 49
As an aside wondering who the Sarah Ann Kelly was who appears to marry a Stephen Horgan in 1877 Keighley?
Keyboard86
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It's me Essnell,
These are my relatives, So it is all very gratifying to have you all working.
I do have the 1881 census details - that is where I started from - finding Ellen first off.
For the one of you asking re Annie Lambert - yes she is Ellen's sister and I have a letter dated 1912 written by James Lambert to Ellen here in Australia from the Luddenden Foot address. I have found out much about this line and even had contact with one person directly related.
Ellen returned to England 1812/13 and saw the family plus others. Ellen came back to her family here [Australia] in 1813 just before the WW1 broke out.
I have not been able to fully connect Joseph to the War records. So that info is new and useful so thankyou.
contained in that is the record re John Craggs still being alive and the address - again new information to me. this conflicts with what Ellen said re her father - that she was an orphan at the age of 13 when her mother died 1886.
I do know that a J Craggs was in the Army but which J. Craggs because there is Joseph and a James.and the Forces of War Recs didn't give the full name or relatives.
Re the Stat Dec It appears to me that Jabez Crabtree knew something about Fanny [whoever] that Joseph previously didn't know at the time of her death and had to retract his original statement.
ihave also thought re the kelly surname and a previous marriage and that is clouded by the fact that Ellen recalls another girl as Sarah Ann Kelly whom I also have not found nor a kelly marriage.
It is quite interesting that Mr Crabtree had an older Daughter Sarah Ann. just co-incidence. Ellen said without any prompting bu us that Sarah Ann didn't want her mother to get married as she would have a navvy for a father. Therefore She was not John Craggs Daughter but still Dau of Fanny and someone. Sarah ann crabtree married either Joseph Harrison or John Waddington 1877.
My whole reason for this search is to find Fanny's parents and John's parents.
Essnell
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Hi I answered the query re the father on the certs in the personal messages.
Yes John Craggs is the father given on both of them one for Ellen and one for William both born up on the Yorkshire Dales.
Ellen at Mossdale Moor near Hawes 1874 and '
William at Quarry Railway Huts near Hawes 1875
John is a Stone Mason.
Essnell
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Hi to answer re Fanny on birth cets for Ellen and William
Mother is Fanny Massey not Kelly. I beleive Massey to be her birth name??
Essnell
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Hi again - Re Annie Craggs this is what i Have:
Annie Craggs birth Qtr. 4 year 1872 district Louth county Licolnshire England vol. 7a. page 587.
I have her marriage Certificate: Vol 9a p333 Qtr Sept year 1892, to James Lambert Her Father is given as John Craggs Stone Mason (Journeyman).
James Lambert's Father is Thomas Lambert. James is a Stone Quarrier.
Essnell.
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If we assume Fanny Craggs was born as Fanny / Frances Massey abt 1837 Nottinghamshire,
here is a candidate in 1841.
Living at Common side, Selston, Notts
John Massey 30 (1811)
Ann Massey 25 (1816)
William Massey 7 (1834)
Mary Massey 5 (1836)
Frances Massey 3 (1838)
Elizabeth Massey 1 (1840)
all bic (Notts)
Piece number 861 Book 1 Folio 12 Page 17
possible baptism
Frances Massey bapt 11 Mar 1838, Kirby in Ashfield, Notts d/o John and Ann
Can't find birth reg, could have been born just before civil reg began an baptised when several months old or got missed out of the new-fangled system.
The younger sister Elizabeth might be reg Basford Q2 1850 15 440 mmn Welton
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John Massey married Ann Welton at Kirkby in Ashfield on 15 Apr 1833.
Can't yet find any of the family in later censuses.
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John Massey bapt 21 Mar 1809 at Kirkby in Ashfield s/o Peter and Mary
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1861 has a John Massey by Kirkby, Notts age 53, with wife Elizabeth age 51 b Ilkeston, Derbys and son Peter 18, b Selston, Notts - living in Selston. Death of Ann and remarriage of John needed now.
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Two Peter Masseys born Selston. The older one b 1842 s/o Matthew Massey and Elizabeth nee brian / Bryan who married in Alfreton, Derbys on 25 Aug 1841.
The younger one b 1843 s/o John and Ann. Mmn given as Weston on GRO index.
Can find Matthew and family in 1851 but not John and family
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Now found John Massey and family in 1851
Piece 2125 Folio 85 Page 25
He's a widower, children William 16, Mary Ann 14, Elizabeth 10, Peter 7, Han ? (daughter - short for Hannah??) 5 and Sarah 3. No Frances / Fanny - has she died and this is a dead end?
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Could this be her in 1851 as Fan Marr?
Piece: 2125 Folio: 30 Page Number: 53
Can't find any other reference to a Fanny / Frances Marr born in same place same time.
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Hi again - Re Annie Craggs this is what i Have:
Annie Craggs birth Qtr. 4 year 1872 district Louth county Licolnshire England vol. 7a. page 587.
I have her marriage Certificate: Vol 9a p333 Qtr Sept year 1892, to James Lambert Her Father is given as John Craggs Stone Mason (Journeyman).
James Lambert's Father is Thomas Lambert. James is a Stone Quarrier.
Essnell.
This Annie Craggs b Dec qtr 1872 Louth had no mothers maiden name, and dies same qtr aged 2 days/weeks or months.
Keyboard86
EDIT Oh no, the information obtained on your much earler thread/s would really have assisted ,why did you in addition to Ellens' birth certificate obtain that for William Craggs?
I supoose you also know that Fanny Lambert b c 1893 appears to die unmarried 1958 Amounderness aged 65?
Also, from your PM you do not have the birth certificates of both Joseph and Annie and you have been informed by a Researcher their was another son b 1876 what was his name?
The Joseph Craggs mmn Massey in Mansfield, and Service record for a Joseph Craggs b Mansfield is one to think about?
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Hi again, a Sarah Ann Crabtree married a John Waddington, in 1881:-
John Waddington 24 occ Tailor
Sarah Ann 21 b Halifax
Annie 2
Greenwood 0
Children born Cullingworth
Residing at 13, Oxford Street, Ripley
Census ref RG11/4473/97/25
Birth registration Greenwood Waddington Dec qtr 1880 Keighley 9a 18 mmn Crabtree
Still would like evidence/outcome of the Stephen Horgan/Sarah Ann Kelly marriage 1877 Keighley?
Also noted that on the Statutory Declaration Fanny was unmarried also known as Kelly?
Keyboard86
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Hi Again, the youngest child is James
I am not sure if he was born in the same area as Ellen and William.
Joseph appears to have been born in Mansfield.
I have not purchased his certificate but these are the details.
Joseph Craggs, year 1870, Qtr. 1, England, Nottinghamshire, Mansfield, Vol 7b, page 82,
Line 257
I was not able to follow up on purchasing as my Husband died right when this was found.
These are the 5 children of Fanny Massey /// Craggs /Kelly.
Joseph, Annie, Ellen, William, James.
I know they are hard to find. especially since the Massey name of the Mother being such a difficulty.
I really just needed to find out about this Stat. Dec. so I can put one name in the trash and concentrate on Kelly and Massey which seems to be the way to go. ?????
Thanks for all your hard work.
Essnell
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Hi again, James Craggs birth registration is March qtr 1877 Sheffield mmn Massey ( Possibly born late 1876)
So Annie still to locate?
Keyboard86
EDIT and where were Joseph/Fanny in 1871 census?
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Hi Keyboard 86
I have no idea where Fanny {Massey/ Kelly/ Craggs} and Joseph were in 1871. I have look many times with no results.
Tried all three surnames and still nothing. Cannot find John in that year either. May be they didn't fill out a form.
Thought --- were there any construction sites up that way in that year - even Scotland?
These workers moved around an awful lot.
I am getting PDF's for the birth's of Joseph and James. Can't locate Annie. will have in a three more days.
Essnell. :)
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Hi when Joseph Craggs elisted in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers 20th November 1888 he gave his date of birth as 15th February 1870, his record states he had not resided at his fathers house in the last three years, but his father was the John Craggs I showed at a Runcorn address.
So I looked up a possible John in 1891 in Runcorn and found:-
John Craggs 45 occ Stone Mason b Cumberland
Lydia 44 b Kent
Lydia A 11 b Northumberland
Residing at Pool Lane, Runcorn
Census Ref RG12/2831/135/33
The couple married Sept qtr 1886 Glendale, John Craggs to Lydia Todd, the Lydia A is a child by Lydia prior to marriage.
Lydia is a Widow in 1901 census
Keyboard86
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Hi So when Joseph enlisted in1888 he was 18yrs old. Also I would think he would have been posted somewhere in 1891 census year by the Army.
I did try to find an enlistment for a J. Craggs with no result but I did find service records, still only for J. Craggs. He was in Africa by 1899 to 1901. He was injured there.
.....>
If Joseph had not resided with J. Craggs for the last 3 years that takes us back to 1885. In 1881 he was 11 yrs old, so in 1885 he was 15 and where did he live? Looks like he had also left and was living with his father when his mother died - 1886 with the .......
In 1881 Joseph was with his mother, Fanny Craggs in Abbeystead Huts with no father. Fanny Craggs was stated as the head of the household - no John Craggs. Looks like John Craggs had left the family by then.
Would be good to know when the family moved to Cullingworth and with whom? that impossible!!
One odd statement from my Grandmother was that she was an orphan by 1886, once her mother died. She obviously was told her father had died. She told all of us that.
Fanny Craggs/Kelly died in 1886, 10th December.
So if Lydia A. 11 yrs - was born before 1886 marriage on the 1891 recs, then she was born in 1880. It means that this John Craggs left Fanny Craggs between 1877 and 1879 Lancashire and went off with Lydia whom he had a child by before Fanny died in Cullingworth, Bingley .
If that is the reality- then Lydia A is a half sister to my Grandmother. I wonder if there are any others.
So where does the Kelly name fit in between Massey and Craggs for this lady.
Essnell
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Hi I think you are reading too much into Joseph Craggs Attestation, the form only shows the last 3 years he answered No, he possibly never saw his father for 5/6/7 years who knows, re Lydia Alice she was registered as Lydia Alice Todd mmn HOBBS in Glendale and is shown as that in 1901 census?
The question on my lips is just how did Joseph and possibly Fanny know that if this is the correct John just where he lived, ( just noticed he signed on in Runcorn)
And why did Fanny give her "maiden" name to the registered births but call herself Fanny Kelly?
And who was Sarah Ann Kelly who married in Keighley?
Keyboard86
PS Joseph Craggs served many years, and also served in the Boer War, and prior, received the India Medal with Hazara Clasp 1891, his record is on FindMyPast?
If as you say Joseph lived with his father after Fanny had died in 1886, then he must have lied at his attestation where the question that must be answered is "Have you lived at your fathers house in the last 3 years" he answered NO.
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Hi again, he was called back to service under special A.O. 7th October 1899 ( Suggest to fight in the Boer War ) at the end of his 1st period of service he was discharged in Wrexham and his intended place of residence was 26, Tamworth Street, off Phoebe Street, Salford, Lancashire, this is the exact address that the widowed Lydia Craggs and daughter Lydia Todd were staying in the 1901 census.
Keyboard86
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Hi again, ok John Craggs plays around a bit with his year of birth, but believe this is possibly him in 1881 census:-
John Craggs 40 Married occ Mason (Stone) b Cumberland
Tom Craggs 35 Single occ Mason (Stone) b Cumberland
They are both shown as boarders with a George Greenwood & family at Cross Roads, Bingley
Census Ref RG11/4344/116/21
Possibly he was born in Penrith with parents Joseph & Eleanor(Ellen)
Keyboard86
PS Essnell, I see you have threads all over the place including Genes Reunited, you were supplied the above 1881 on GR and even yourself provided a potential birth of a Sarah A Kelly mmn Massey, getting a trifle frustrated?!
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HI Keyboard86,
I am sorry you are frustrated. I have been at this like a dog worrying a bone for at least 15yrs, and the same questions are still there. I do have accounts on a number of sites but I don't use all of them in the forums. I have tried to find out answers to specific questions here and on Genes R.
Every time the question reverts to a hunt for the children and goes over some of the same information. It makes it all difficult for you guys but also for me.
Often the info is misread but it all goes to prove that I do have some verifiable details but some are there and have not been verified.
You in particular have been extremely helpful and I am very grateful for what you have found.
I can only say again : My grandmother is Ellen Craggs - her death cert from Australia gives her mother as Fanny Massey and her father as John Craggs - on her birth Cert from England [a full one] the selfsame information has been recorded.
I have James' Birth Cert which also provides the same.
The only place I found the family was in the 1881 Census looking for Ellen first. When I couldn't get anything on either Fanny Massey and John Craggs together anywhere it all became very complex. So I started asking questions.
I have looked in all sorts of directions and keep finding more and more bits that MIGHT fit including several John Craggs . Since the death cert has this note on it re the Stat Dec and how to read the information, I came to believe that Jabez Crabtree knew something that Joseph originally didn't. I thought if I found some relatives they might know.
Add to this the fact that her burial place cannot be found and that is another issue. Hence the jumps to Middlesborough Cemetry because there is the only record of a "Craggs" person being buried there in 1886 - or anywhere else so far. Don't go into this it is just tooooooo much.
There are so many loose bits and so many "ifs".
I have not used this site for quite a number of years as I didn 't want people re doing everything all the time but I thought my question was different. It has lead in a very different direction.
I am waiting on the date to move to the 3rd in England so I can get Joseph and William's Birth info PDF's. I just hope they give the same Info.
Now to answer your post.
I thought John C was born in 1838 approx and yes this chap is very likely the children's father. I could not however connect them.
Re Sarah Ann Kelly I have looked for her over and over and the one bit of info has not been verified. I could not get back to the mmn being Massey. Also the dates didn't seem to gel either so i just filed the info for later.
As for Fanny..... being Kelly - Other than Sarah Ann and my grandmother's recollection of her I actually had nothing until I got Fanny Graggs' death Cert to find that she was not Fanny Craggs but Fanny kelly. She must have called herself Craggs.
I'm still puzzled about Joseph and his father.
I'll let you know what these two Birth Certs say ASAP.
Essnell
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Hi again, he was called back to service under special A.O. 7th October 1899 ( Suggest to fight in the Boer War ) at the end of his 1st period of service he was discharged in Wrexham and his intended place of residence was 26, Tamworth Street, off Phoebe Street, Salford, Lancashire, this is the exact address that the widowed Lydia Craggs and daughter Lydia Todd were staying in the 1901 census.
Keyboard86
The Joseph b Mansfield is linked to this widow?
Tell me what is known about William & James?
Also if Joseph is signing documents aged 16 with Jabez Crabtree in Bingley isn't it likely that Jabez took in all the Craggs children after the death of Fanny?
I also think Fanny was older than John, his birth I believe was John Craggs June qtr 1846 Penrith v25 page 150 mmn Maughlin
Marriage of parents oddly appears to be:-
Joseph Craggs to Eleanor Macklaughlin 4th September 1839 Thorney, Cambridgeshire.
Keyboard86
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Hi Again from Essnell,
the two PDF's have come through. These are interesting as there is more info than on the other two I have and both were reported by the mother.
No 1. Joseph Craggs. [no second name]
Date: Seventeenth February 1870 Mansfield Woodhouse
Father's name: John Craggs
Mother's name: Fanny Graggs late Kelly formerly Massey
Father's Occupation: Stone Quarrier
Informant: Hand made X .. then... Mark of Fanny Craggs Mother Mansfield Woodhouse
Registration date: Twenty-eighth February 1870
Signed by the Registrar: Robert Bowler.
{the main Reg district is MANSFIELD and the registrar's dist is WARSOP and this is in NOTTINGHAMSHIRE }
So this Proves a definite link for Fanny Masssey to Kelly prior to her being with John Craggs.
? What would the word "late" have signified in that era? that Mr Kelly had died or that she was just known as Fanny Kelly.
To me it looks like there was a complete break with the association with the name Kelly.
Now for James :
Main Reg district SHEFFIELD Reg sub-District Sheffield South County York.
date of birth: Twenty-ninth January 1877 27 Pond Hill
Name: James [no second name]
Father's Name: John Craggs
Mother's name: Fanny Craggs, formerly MASSEY
Father's occupation: A Stone Mason
Informant: hand made X... then... The mark of Fanny Craggs Mother 27 Pond Hill Sheffield.
Reg. Date: Twenty-fifth February 1877
Registrar: Geo. T. Earle.
Next: What do I know about these two:
Joseph : Birth Date: 17-02-1870.. confirmed
Mother: Fanny Massey....."
Father John Craggs........."
1881 Census address : Abbeystead Huts No 5 Over Wryesdale Lancashire........confirmrd
1886 Living somewhere in keighley - Bingley - Cullingworth.
1886 Mother died in Cullingworth Dec. 10th .......confirmed
1886 Mother buried 15th Dec .....Confirmed... do not know where
1887 signs Stat Dec with Jabez Crabtree to effect Mother not Craggs but Kelly and not
wife but housekeeper.
1888 Joins the army as you discovered. Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Father identified as John
Craggs
1891 living somewhere in Bingley....
About James: Birth 29-01-1877 27 Pond Hill Sheffield .......confirmed
Father John Craggs ............"
Mother Fanny Craggs.........."
1881 Census address : Abbeystead Huts No 5 Over Wryesdale Lancashire
1886 No Information re this [see edit below]
1886 Mother died in Cullingworth Dec. 10th ......confirmed
1886 Mother buried 15th Dec ............."
1899 Joins the army - Boer War - West Yorkshire Regiment [Prince of Wales Own]
Have info but no secondary to confirm.
[ unconfirmed info- Death Richmond Yorkshire 1968]
I have no idea where William and James were after their Mother died. William would have been 11 and James about 10 years old so they would have had to go somewhere - to an orphanage or a workhouse but that seems not to have occurred.
Family story: from my grandmother - Sarah Ann had married a doctor and she offered to take the two younger boys. I don't know if that transpired. there was also talk about going to America.
Could it be that Sarah Ann Crabtree took in the two boys?
Hope the above is of use.
I am still looking for Annie's Birth. Adn the link to Kelly for Fanny Massey.
Essnell
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Hi again, do you agree that Joseph had the address of Lydia Craggs to return to after his first spell in the Army, if so the marriage of John Craggs to Lydia would confirm the name of his father?
Also I can confirm a Joseph Cragg with the birth date of 17/2/1870 is in Thornton Road, Bradford in 1939, which confirms the death certificate contained in his Army records. ??? Something is not quite right with that death certificate, as I believe the Joseph Cragg with that exact date of birth, was married in Grimsby as Joseph Craggs to Clara E Woods in 1920 Grimsby, he is with Clara in 1911 and is from Holton Le Clay in Lincolnshire?
Also I see the departure of Ellen in 1900 to Brisbane, but also a Wm CRAGG b c 1875 also going in 1899 to Brisbane?
In 1891, John Craggs was living in Runcorn, Cheshire with wife Lydia?
Keyboard86
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Hi from OZ.
Ok! need to ponder the address but it is possible that if this is the correct info he could have gone there.
How long were army stints - six years or three? That would place him back in time for 1891 census if it is 3 years.
Ok so the death seems to fit. Oh dear! it seems that they took a bit of licence with the surname dropping and /or re-adding the "s" as they chose. Annie used Cragg on the 1891 census but a year later married as Craggs. Really helpful!
There are a few Joseph Craggs so there could be two with the same birth date - a straw. There were people who were plain Cragg as well.
What if I get the marriage Cert for Joseph and Clara? that should show the parents. A pdf image is inexpensive straight from GRO website. takes 4-5 days so next Friday I would have it online.
About William coming to Brisbane - Not a clue - but it is posible. I have wondered what Ellen did and where she stayed on arrival. She and Frederick Mark Holmes married in 1901. So almost a year later. I shall do some work on the Queensland gov. Site and the Aust. Archives tomorrow.
something right out of nowhere:- I was looking up Fanny Massey yet again and this came up:
""1853 Births and Christenings - SON, John Massey: christening: Kirkby in Ashfield, Nottingham: Mother: Fanny Massey. Associated with the record of John Massey.""
If this is her she was 16yrs old. The baby died, same day by the looks of things. Am looking for a birth reg. ?? not coming up.
At least this is a definite for the name Fanny Massey.
Essnell
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Phew, sorted out Joseph Craggs b Lincolnshire, he was born Louth 1869 and dies in Cleethorpes, Clara E in Grimsby, so now to locate the Joseph Craggs/Clara marriage for couple in 1939 Bradford.
Marriage Joseph Cragg to Clara Airton Sept qtr 1915 Bradford 9b 444
Death Clara Cragg b c 1869 died March qtr 1948 Bradford v2b page 92 aged 79
Clara was a widow when she married Joseph Cragg.
He was in the Army over 13 years?
In 1891 Joseph was earning a medal with clasp in India?
Don't ponder too long re the address that Joseph was returning to after his first stint:-
1901 census:-
Lydia Craggs 53 Widow occ Office Cleaner b Dover
Lydia Todd 21 Daughter b Woolmer
Plus Boarders
26, Tamworth Street, Salford
Census ref RG13/3735/91/46
An afterthought, surely Ellen would have mentioned that her brother had journeyed prior to her to Brisbane?
Keyboard86
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Hi in addition to above suggest the birth of the John Massey in Kirkby in Ashfield 1853 was the son of Fanny Massey aged 19 shown as Servant at Church Street, Kirkby in Ashfield
Census ref HO107/2125/49/23
Keyboard86
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Hi again, one death to keep in mind is the James Cragg or Craggs June qtr 1959 Bradford 2b 144 aged 82
Keyboard86
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Hello - been a tad busy last two days.
Tried to find a birth rec for John Massey son of Fanny Massey 1853 but that seems to have not been done. Did find on the Bishops Transcripts for Churches, a full statement listing the child as illegitimate. This was at St Wilfrid C/E in Kirkby in Ashfield.
Re Fanny - found her on the 1851 Census as dau. of Henry Massey aged 14 yrs birth date 1837. They were in Leeds at that point and Fanny was working in a Flax Mill. if these are the ones!
Re Wm Cragg/s journey to Brisbane. Yes this person did come here - arrived 1900. He was on the Electoral rolls straight away. He left England, London, 5th Dec. 1899 arrived Brisbane,13th Feb. 1900 on the "Duke of Portland" as an assisted immigrant.
Question. Do you know if these persons were required to provide proof of birth registration or was it just done by the government?
As to us being told about him. NO not a word - at least to me. My own Mother also never mentioned him. I don't know if she even knew.
I wonder if this person was Ellen's Brother? I'll see if i can trace him on those Elec Rolls a bit further. I'll also get Ellen's Marriage Cert it may have witnesses on there.
Sadly aIlot of info got lost when Ellen died and my Aunt turfed out so much - a box full of cards and letters from England.
Essnell
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Could this be her in 1851 as Fan Marr?
Piece: 2125 Folio: 30 Page Number: 53
Can't find any other reference to a Fanny / Frances Marr born in same place same time.
More likely Fanny in 1851
Piece: 2125 Folio: 49 Page Number: 23
Fits better with the family I found in 1841 and with Fanny having an illegitimate child in 1852 at Kirkby in A.
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Good fit for John Craggs on age and pob in 1871, he's with a number of male lodgers all described as railway labourers. Although he is described as a stone mason on several records, I don't think we're looking for someone who did intricate carving as on medieval cathedrals, more likely cut and shaped stone blocks for roads and railways. But he is in Cumberland rather than Nottinghamshire where I would expect him to be if he had fathered Fanny's child the previous year.
Piece: 5207 Folio: 50 Page: 11
added
Mansfield Woodhouse has nearby stone quarries, some of the stone from there was used in construction of Houses of Parliament
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Could this be her in 1851 as Fan Marr?
Piece: 2125 Folio: 30 Page Number: 53
Can't find any other reference to a Fanny / Frances Marr born in same place same time.
More likely Fanny in 1851
Piece: 2125 Folio: 49 Page Number: 23
Fits better with the family I found in 1841 and with Fanny having an illegitimate child in 1852 at Kirkby in A.
Sorry, just seen this had already been found
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Tried to find a birth rec for John Massey son of Fanny Massey 1853 but that seems to have not been done. Did find on the Bishops Transcripts for Churches, a full statement listing the child as illegitimate. This was at St Wilfrid C/E in Kirkby in Ashfield.
What about this
MASSEY, JOHN 1852 Quarter 3 in BASFORD Volume 07B Page 86
No mother's mn recorded which often means illegitimate
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So if Lydia A. 11 yrs - was born before 1886 marriage on the 1891 recs, then she was born in 1880. It means that this John Craggs left Fanny Craggs between 1877 and 1879 Lancashire and went off with Lydia whom he had a child by before Fanny died in Cullingworth, Bingley .
Lydia jnr is on 1881 census with older sister Margaret as Todd with mother and father, William and Lydia snr in Wooler Northumberland..
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Hi would seriously suggest you purchase the marriage certificate of John Craggs to Lydia Todd 1886, would love to see if John describes himself as
single or a widower, Lydia Todd 23 b Dover was in Sheffield Barracks in 1871, daughter Margaret was registered as Margaret Isabella Todd Sept qtr 1871 Eccleshall Bierlow v9c page 252 mmn Hobbs
William Todd married Lydia Hobbs March qtr 1866 Dover 2a 936
And of course the marriage of Joseph Cragg to Clara Airton 1915 Bradford to confirm his father was John Cragg/s
Keyboard86
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Two Peter Masseys born Selston. The older one b 1842 s/o Matthew Massey and Elizabeth nee brian / Bryan who married in Alfreton, Derbys on 25 Aug 1841.
The younger one b 1843 s/o John and Ann. Mmn given as Weston on GRO index.
Can find Matthew and family in 1851 but not John and family
If we are hoping this was the family of Fanny Massey b c 1837 Nottinghamshire, then other than the Fanny in 1851 indicating her age was 19, ( 14/15 would have been better) then John Massey in 1851 gives:-
John Massey 41 Widower occ Lab in Iron Works b Kirkby
William 16 b Kirkby
Mary Ann 14 b Kirkby ( baptised 1836)
Elizabeth 10 b Kirkby
Peter 7 b Selston
Hannah 5 b Selston
Sarah 3 b Selston
Residing at Church Lane, Selston
Census ref HO107/2125/85/25
Keyboard86
;D Sorry Lizzie did not scroll far enough forward!
PS re the Frances Massey b 1837 Leeds you located in 1851 Leeds, Father Henry, in 1871 she is with brother Henry 37 b Leeds, Mother Harriet 66 b Alfreton, Frances 34 b Leeds in Derbyshire
Census ref RG10/3561/124/25
Also happy now that the 19 year old Fanny in 1851, who had a child John in 1852/3 is not the daughter of John, but of William & Sarah, her baptism was Fanny Massey 30th September 1832 St Wilfrid Father William Mother Sarah
Fanny Massey married Anthony Lowe St Wilfrid, Kirkby in Ashfield 29th Oct 1852
John Massey did not die young, he is John Massey Lowe aged 8
Census ref RG09/2433/83/57
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Hi ........Looks like another visit to GRO UK. later tonight it will be Friday before the PDF's get posted if I'm lucky.
More later...
Essnell
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Also happy now that the 19 year old Fanny in 1851, who had a child John in 1852/3 is not the daughter of John, but of William & Sarah, her baptism was Fanny Massey 30th September 1832 St Wilfrid Father William Mother Sarah
Fanny Massey married Anthony Lowe St Wilfrid, Kirkby in Ashfield 29th Oct 1852
John Massey did not die young, he is John Massey Lowe aged 8
Census ref RG09/2433/83/57
Good find. And this Fanny is still with Anthony and family right through to 1881 so that eliminates her as "our" Fanny
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Hello.
have ordered the two Marriage docs as suggested. Marriage Certs are not on the PDF Pilot so these will be Full Certs sent snail-mail, leaving 14th Nov.- should be here by end of the month.{it's getting into Christmas postage so it will be a bit slower than usual. }
Both Certs info are definite for both parties in both names.
Re the Stat Dec.
I contacted GRO Offices who returned some possible places where the Stat Dec MAY have been kept.
I still would like to know how and what Mr Crabtree knew to be able to get Joseph to change his original statement and have that accepted by the Registrar in the January 1887.
Essnell.
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Re the Stat Dec.
I contacted GRO Offices who returned some possible places where the Stat Dec MAY have been kept.
I still would like to know how and what Mr Crabtree knew to be able to get Joseph to change his original statement and have that accepted by the Registrar in the January 1887.
Some thoughts on this:
In my (limited) experience of death certs for women - a married woman is usually described as wife or widow of..... on their death cert, but a single woman as the daughter of ..... even if an adult and sometimes with the addition of an occupation.
When Fanny died her son registered her death with what he thought was the correct information - as wife of John Craggs, because he believed them to be married and he knew his father John Craggs was still alive. (His army records show he knew his father's address so they must have kept in touch).
The Stat Dec changes Fanny's status to unmarried, lists the names she has been known by and gives her the occupation of housekeeper.
Whose housekeeper? Possibly Jabez Crabtree's? It is unlikely it means John Craggs's housekeeper because they must have separated some time before as John Craggs had married the widowed Lydia in the Quarter before Fanny's death.
As the Stat Dec is only a few weeks after Fanny's death, it suggests some documents may have come to light when Joseph and possibly Jabez were sorting out her possessions. Otherwise how would they have known the name Kelly (sounds similar to the wording on Joseph's birth cert) unless documents with that name hadn't been discovered after her death.
added
I wouldn't think that it is a case of Jabez getting Joseph to change his statement, I would suspect it was Joseph seeking Jabez's help (as presumably a more knowledgeable man in legal matters - Joseph was only 16) in correcting what he later discovered to be incorrect
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??? ??? ???
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Hi
Just checking on Lydia (47) and John Cragg (42) in 1881 Census. They had two Daughters Elizabeth aged 11 and Lydia A aged 9. John is recorded as a Bank Secretary.
In 1891 they are still together and Lydia A is now 19. John is listed a "Banker" Their Address is 56 Park Hills, Croyden, St Mathews, England.
In 1881 a Lydia Todd is with William Todd and they have two daughters. Margaret 9 and Lydia A 1 yr old. William Todd is an InnKeeper.
Their address is 234 Market Terrace, Wooler, Glendale.
William Todd married Lydia Hobbs 1866 in Dover. Vol 2a Pg 936 March Qtr. 1866.
William Todd seems to have died in either 1883 June Qtr aged 68, or 1885 Dec Qtr aged 52, in Glendale.
Now a John Craggs marries in 1886 (Jul-Aug-Sept Qtr) in Glendale, Northumberland. Vol. 10 b pg 517 line 33. He may have married Lydia Todd. Only one name was shown as a possible spouse.
This marriage is pre Fanny Craggs/Kelly's death in December 1886.
In 1891 they are at 28 Pool Lane, Runcorn, Northwich and Lydia A has been given the Craggs surame ! :o :-X
Now none of these addresses are the same as what Joseph gave the Army at his enlistment.
The first couple definitely aren't the right ones.
The next lot - the Hobbs-Todd-Craggs saga seems to fit but that address Joseph gave is elusive. lt has two street names one of which is a lane some distance away.
Have to check Electoral rolls for this ........individual around the 1886 -1889. There should be an address. It might join up the blots ummm ... dots.
Still looking for William here.
Thanks again for looking. Fanny still a missing person. Still don't know where Crabtree fits in either.
Essnell
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HI Keyboard86 and LizzieL
For you information: the Marriage Certs have arrived.
John Craggs And Lydia Todd. year 1886 September 29. John is 40 yrs of age Lydia 39 yrs.
John is a Bachelor and Lydia Widow. John is a Mason , Lydia _____ their residence is Wooler [for both] Northumberland. John's father is Joseph Craggs - Stone-Cutter Lydia's father is Richard Hobbs- Farm Steward.
Witnesses were: Thomas Rowland, Ann Rowland.
He didn't get his son to witness his marriage??? Yet his son was able to affirm that he was not married to Fanny Craggs but his housekeeper?
Why then did Fanny say she was married?? in 1881 and also John CRAGGS say the same in1881?At Crossroads and why 6 years difference in the age.
NO 2: Joseph Cragg[ not Craggs] Clara Airton.
Eleventh September 1916. At Bradford.
Joseph Cragg is 48yrs old, A Bachelor - Wool Comber - 4 Town Lane Lnds, Bradford. Father John Cragg[deceased] -Stone Quarryman.
Clara Airton is 47yrs old, Widow - Occ;_______ 6 Sapgate Lane, Thornton Father Joseph Dunham a Tailor and Outfitter(Master)
Witnesses: James Cragg Mary Elizabeth Cragg
I have just heard back also from one of the Yorkshire Archive centers Re Fanny Massey/Kelly Craggs. the confirmed her name at birth to be Massey, and at Death to be Craggs.
They interpret the "late" on Joseph's Birth Cert that someone named "Kelly" either died or they had been divorced.
They also found the Christening record for Fanny Massey. Cannot put details here under copyright restrictions.However she was 5years older that otherwise stated.
What do you make of this??
Cheers
Essnell
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Another thought, Joseph Craggs obviously had some contact with his father as his father's address appears on his army records. Maybe his father, having heard of Fanny's death in late Dec 1886 early Jan 1887 needed to have the record put straight (that he and Fanny had never been married) otherwise his marriage to Lydia a few months earlier would appear to be bigamous.
Many unmarried mothers claimed to be married or widowed for appearance sake, so not unreasonable to claim she was married.
John Craggs was living in lodgings in 1881, maybe his landlord assumed he was married, or he had arrived with Fanny and children sometime earlier and she had left by census day.
The problem with censuses is that they are just a one day snapshot, Fanny and John might have separated years before the 1881 census or just months or days.
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Hi again Essnell, ( Re your PM) I had that baptism a long time ago re Fanny Massey, but it was the age difference throughout that made me not post, this appears to be her in 1841 census:-
William Massey 45 occ Ag Lab
Sarah 45
Mary 14
Hannah 11
FANNY 8
William 6
Samuel 2
Residing Church Street, Kirby in Ashfield, Basford
Census ref HO107/858/ 3/17 / 26
Fanny aged 19 b Kirby in Ashfield is a Nurse in a household in Kirby in Ashfield
1851 census ref HO107/2125/49/23
The Annie Massey baptism you show in Bolton le Moors on the GRO Index shows as no mothers maiden name Sept qtr 1873 8c 400
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard 86
I'll try to follow up on Fanny after shw was 19 - see if I can find a link to either Kelly or Craggs
Re Annie I'll try to get a copy of the christening record. and one for the Birth record. She may be the Annie who has not been traced to a birth Cert yet.
Let you know what I find.
Cheers Essnell
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Hi again, Essnell, would hold off purchasing the birth certificate of Annie Massey 1873 Bolton for two reasons, in both 1881 and 1891 census she is shown as born Yorkshire/Sheffield?
Also if Joseph b 1870 was born as a Craggs/Cragg why the sudden change back to her maiden name for Annie?
Keyboard86
PS and their is also a death for an Ann Massey Dec qtr 1873 Bolton 8c 250 aged 0
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Hi Keyboard 86,
Ok . Strange how nothing fits! Those birth place statements are so varied.
I have found a William Cragg boarding with Liddemore Family 1891. Birthplace Bingley on that census. In reality he was born up near Hawes and registered at Aysgarth. William or the Liddemores did not know any better.
I'll just file this and see what else turns up. It was not a birth Reg. just Christening Record. Annie may well have been born anywhere and just christened there with no John present. who knows.
I was not searching Annie - it came up through Fanny Massey ODD.
Essnell
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HI Keyboard86 and LizzieL
For you information: the Marriage Certs have arrived.
John Craggs And Lydia Todd. year 1886 September 29. John is 40 yrs of age Lydia 39 yrs.
John is a Bachelor and Lydia Widow. John is a Mason , Lydia _____ their residence is Wooler [for both] Northumberland. John's father is Joseph Craggs - Stone-Cutter Lydia's father is Richard Hobbs- Farm Steward.
Witnesses were: Thomas Rowland, Ann Rowland.
He didn't get his son to witness his marriage??? Yet his son was able to affirm that he was not married to Fanny Craggs but his housekeeper?
Why then did Fanny say she was married?? in 1881 and also John CRAGGS say the same in1881?At Crossroads and why 6 years difference in the age.
NO 2: Joseph Cragg[ not Craggs] Clara Airton.
Eleventh September 1916. At Bradford.
Joseph Cragg is 48yrs old, A Bachelor - Wool Comber - 4 Town Lane Lnds, Bradford. Father John Cragg[deceased] -Stone Quarryman.
Clara Airton is 47yrs old, Widow - Occ;_______ 6 Sapgate Lane, Thornton Father Joseph Dunham a Tailor and Outfitter(Master)
Witnesses: James Cragg Mary Elizabeth Cragg
I have just heard back also from one of the Yorkshire Archive centers Re Fanny Massey/Kelly Craggs. the confirmed her name at birth to be Massey, and at Death to be Craggs.
They interpret the "late" on Joseph's Birth Cert that someone named "Kelly" either died or they had been divorced.
They also found the Christening record for Fanny Massey. Cannot put details here under copyright restrictions.However she was 5years older that otherwise stated.
What do you make of this??
Cheers
Essnell
Hi again, have not forgotten this thread but popped in every now and then to see if I can offer anything else.
Must have missed the witnesses of Joseph Cragg/s to Clara Airton 1915 not 1916 Bradford, was this perhaps his brother James b 1877 Sheffield married to a Mary Elizabeth?
James Craggs married a Mary E Walsh Dec qtr 1915 Bradford 9b 437?
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard86
I keep coming back also as I don't want to start all over again.
Still digging re Annie's Birth Cert I did get the Bolton one and there is only the mother and no father. Child is Annie Massey. have to look into this further. I had ordered it before your post.
However i have now got Annie's Death Cert. She died in Longridge, Preston 1954, and was buried at the Holy Trinity Church there. Next bit is to see if there is a grave stone or memorial.
re james as witness it could actually be so. i really know nothing about the three brothers.
Think I ought to look up James' marriage further. I keep drifting off on to other bits.
I have found an entry for Sarah Ann Kelly born in Basford 1856 which would make Fanny Massey 19yrs old just on that age in 1856 Fanny would have been exactly the right age 49 in 1886. Food for thought. II also makes Sarah 30 yrs of age - a responsible adult.
I am also wondering if regarding the Stat Dec on Fanny Graggs Death if Joseph could have been considered too young to make the original reports.
just out of curiosity i have ordered the Death Cert for Fanny Kelly - same details as for Fanny Craggs.
It is visible on the original image on FindMyPast. We shall see.
One other thing do you know how I can research German records and Swedish or Danish ones.
thanks again Cheers Essnell
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One other thing do you know how I can research German records and Swedish or Danish ones.
Hi Essnell
I can help out in Sweden or Denmark if you want. Just let me know what is required.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thank you.
My father's family are all German. i have a birth Cert for him in German as well as English. Back in 1910 they still looked to Germany even though living here in Australia.
They all registered as aliens and most changed their surnames.
I need to look up the precise details of what I am looking for.
My Great great grandmother came form Denmark but was born in Sweeden. She emigrated here and married here in Australia.
Be in touch soon
Essnell.
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Hi all - I’m new on here - I only found this site & you people today after (through sheer frustration) typing “Fanny Craggs” into Google - I didn’t expect anything to come up as I’ve been working away in splendid isolation.
I have read the comments & decided rather than agree with some comments & disagree with others - I will write down what I (think) I know - & then let you shoot me down in flames.
I am:
The GG grandson of John Craggs & Fanny - I don’t believe that they were ever married
The G grandson of James William Lambert & Annie Craggs, - Annie took the surname Craggs & John Craggs (stone mason) is named on her marriage certificate.
James & Annie were married in Cullingworth in 1892 & had 12 children, Fanny, George, Thomas, Violet, Ralph (my maternal GF), James & Herbert were born in Cullingworth, while William, Florence, Hilda, Ellen & Fred were born after the family move to Luddenden Foot.
Birth
John Craggs born A/M/J 1846 in Penrith, Cumberland (v25 - p150)
1851 - At Millgate, Gilling, Yorkshire North Riding.
Joseph Craggs * 35 Melsonby Yorkshire
Elenor Craggs 25 Manchester Lancashire
Joseph Craggs 9 Hartforth Yorkshire
James Craggs * 7 Gilling Yorkshire
John Craggs 4 Penrith, Westmorland
Thomas Martin Craggs 5m Staindrop Durham
Jane Maglin (Visitor) 19 Manchester Lancashire (Elenor’s sister?)
Note Penrith was in Cumberland - which bordered Westmorland in the Lake District - the 2 were often confused - BUT there is only 1 Penrith!
1861 - Boarding at Farriers Arms Pub, Gilling Part, Yorkshire North Riding.
Most of the family & more children (including Ellen* & William*).
*Remind you of Fanny’s children at all?
I cannot find John Craggs in 1861
1871 - Boarding at Armathwaite Railway Hut Cumberland (with other labourers & masons).
John Craggs 25 Railway Labourer - born Cumberland.
Please note - this does not mean that he was a railway labourer but rather that he was a labourer working on the construction of a new railway - the Settle - Carlisle Railway. Please research this - the line goes across some of the bleakest landscapes in England. He was not yet a stone mason.
1881 - Boarding at Cross Roads Yorkshire West Riding
John Craggs 40 - born Cumberland. He has (not unusually for men working in his situation) gained 5 years!
Tom Craggs 35 - born Cumberland. He too has gained 5 years! He also thinks that Durham is in Cumberland - or their landlord took an educated guess when the enumerator called? I am personally not concerned about these apparent anomalies - given how everything else fits.
Cross Roads is now part of Keighley & Cullingworth is now part of Bradford - however they are only 2.5 miles apart. I believe that he & Tom were working as masons on the Hewenden Viaduct outside Cullingworth. This was on the Keighley & Thornton branch of the Great Northern Railway that opened in 1883.
1871 - Sheffield Barracks Sheffield - we find William Todd 38 - soldier from Berwick on Tweed & his wife, Lydia Todd, 23 born Dover, Kent.
1891 - White Horse Inn, Wooler, Northumberland - we find William Todd 49 - innkeeper from Berwick & his wife, Lydia Todd, 33 born Dover, Kent, together with daughters, Margaret Todd 9 - born Sheffield & Lydia A Todd 1 - born Wooler,
Marriage J/A/S 1886 - Glendale, Northumberland - John Craggs marries Lydia Todd (10b 517) this is before Fanny “died twice”
1891 - At 30 Pool Lane, Runcorn, Cheshire we have John Craggs 45 stone mason Cumberland Penrith (he’s got his age back - might be to do with getting married?), Lydia Craggs 44 - Dover & Lydia A Craggs (really Todd) 11 - Cumberland Wooler.
Again I think that John thinks everything north of Yorkshire is in Cumberland! Wooler is in Northumberland.
A quick look at Fanny & her children.
On their 1881 census Fanny is born in Nottinghamshire & Joseph in Sheffield Yorkshire. On first glance it looks like the other 4 children were also born in Sheffield Yorkshire - because of the 4 “do” or dittos. If you look closely the enumerator has drawn 2 vertical lines either side of the dos that extends up into the word Yorkshire. I think that was his way of indicating that only Yorkshire had a do under it for the other 4 - i.e. excluding the word Sheffield.
One other thought that has come to me while writing this - re Sheffield. I think that there might be a link with Sheffield Barracks. John married Lydia who had a child Margaret there in 1872. Fanny had Joseph in Sheffield in 1872 before moving to N Yorkshire. Perhaps Fanny had links with the Barracks? Perhaps they kept in touch & that’s how John knew Lydia??? I shall have to look at that angle!
The children were born at the Quarry Huts in Hawes (where Wensleydale cheese is made) & the Births were registered in Aysgarth.The Settle Carlisle Railway had a branch line to Hawes. Stone for the stations, bridges and the like were quarried & dressed in Hawes by stone masons who lodged at the huts.
On to 1881- the huts at Over Wyresdale - provided lodgings for masons & labourers working on the extension to the Abbeystead Reservoir - perhaps Fanny & John went there together as a joint enterprise?
John being in Cullingworth would explain how Fanny & the girls finished up there - but perhaps after time apart - they had grown apart?
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(A quick search on the Barracks has shown no Fanny or Frances - A search on Kelly - one Michael Kelly 1848 - Ireland). A job for tomorrow as it’s now turned 4am!
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Also - if you search for a census that I have mentioned, the transcriber had difficulty with the town of Penrith in the place of birth field. In the 1851 one he wrote it as Penult while in 1891 it became merely 3 question marks Once looking at the census, the hand written Penrith can be clearly seen.
If I type 3 question marks - this happens - ???
Another thing that struck me when composing the above is just how important the railways were in John Craggs' continuing employment, firstly as a navvy and later a mason. He trundled up & down the country following the work. Now Fanny set up lodging houses for the workmen - but consider this: once the masons had finished building - that was it - they had to move on to the next job. Now if John had been working on the reservoir & living with Fanny & the children, along with other masons, the time would come when his work was done & he would have to move on. Other trades would then be needed to finish the job off once all the stone had been dressed - & they would need somewhere to live. Fanny I think would not leave her lodging house & the money it brought in - & this is something that was probably repeated over & over again. In effect they were part time cohabitees.
Back to the Sheffield issue. I checked for railway construction in Sheffield & guess what? The "new" Sheffield station was completed in 1870 together with a lengthy detour of the Derby - Leeds line which previously by passed Sheffield. The detour known as "the new road" now took all trains into Sheffield. Given that Fanny's first born Joseph was born in 1871 - my guess is that John left Sheffield when the worked finished - perhaps after Joseph was conceived - to go to his new job on the Settle - Carlisle railway construction. This could explain how he was in an Armathwaite Railway Hut for the 1871 census. Who knows perhaps Fanny followed him up there to open a lodging house?
I am going to focus on this railway connection with Fanny for a while & see how I get on!
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I feel like I'm have a conversation with myself here - it's good because at least I'm getting my thoughts down on paper (or at least on screen). The Craggs are now seriously doing my head in!!!
I have found Lydia "Cruggs" on 1901 (transcription error - clearly Craggs on handwritten census), - living in Salford - born Dover. Described as a widower - together with daughter Lydia TODD (reverted back from Craggs as per 1891) - born in Wooler.
Again they are in Salford in 1911 Lydia Craggs is still a widower and Lydia ALICE Todd is now Smith with 2 children (no Mr Smith - I wonder if he is a wandering mason like John - lol).
I have looked for John Craggs' death between 1891 & 1901 - but nothing fits geographically. So on the off chance I looked for him in the 1901 C. Now of course - what I found raises questions & a LOT of doubt in my head - but given John's history of moving about looking for work & the apparent difficulty that he has remembering his age - there is a very outside chance that he is up to his old tricks - & not dead.
In 1901 a John Craggs born in Cumberland is listed as a border at Midhope, Bradfield Yorkshire West Riding - not far from Sheffield. Described as married - but no wife with him. His age is given as 71 born 1830 (some 16 years too old) - he should be 55. However he is still working as a stone mason (difficult but not totally impossible for a 71 year old). He his boarding with other masons, navvies & horse drivers (waterworks). A quick Google brings up the construction of Langsett Reservoir at Midhope between 1898 & 1904.
Is this family driving me mad? I now have an apparently dead stone mason who is far too old building a reservoir. Was it at all common for an abandoned wife to described herself as a widow to avoid stigma? We all know what Fanny said re marital status!!! See
http://genealogytipoftheday.com/index.php/2016/01/23/not-really-widowed/ it is written regarding American Census - but would still apply in UK.
To double check - I did a complete census check - looking for any John Craggs born in Cumberland in 1830. I found only 2 John Craggs. Our John born 1846 & a John Craggs born in 1890.
I know I am going mad - now where's that bottle?
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[quote author=John Robertshaw link=topic=781200.msg6428532#msg6428532
Again they are in Salford in 1911 Lydia Craggs is still a widower and Lydia ALICE Todd is now Smith with 2 children (no Mr Smith - I wonder if he is a wandering mason like John - lol).
[/quote]
Likely to be Lydia's marriage
Marriages Q3 1901 Salford district 8d 230
BAXTER Mary
McCormick John
Smith Patrick
Todd Lydia Alice
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There's a death reg of a Patrick Smith age 32 in Salford district in Q1 1911, could be him.
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I thought that you might like to see No 3 Victoria Terrace, Luddenden Foot - 1st house on the left - it didn't have the dormer on in Annie's time!
I was brought up in Hebden Bridge - some 4 miles from Luddenden Foot & passed the house hundreds of times. For the first 400 times my mother Olive would point through the bus window as we passed and say "That's where my dad grew up".
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Hello
Well how about all of that. It will take me a whole page to answer what John Robertshaw has posted.
Working in isolation doesn't always help but I think that John has joined up a lot of dots.
Essnell
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HI Everyone,
Have been going over John's post. Cold someone please check on Thomas Martin Craggs for DOB and DOD plus whereabouts in 1851 and 1861. I have looked but would like confirmation from another individual. He is 5mths old in 1851 son of Joseph and Elenor Craggs.
thanks for any info.
Essnell
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I have emailed this to Essnell today - while she is away in the land of nod. I thought that anyone who has had imput re Annie Craggs might like to see her in the flesh. I got this today from Annie's grandson.
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And for those that have worked on George - here he is (the clue is in the uniform).
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Hi all,
Thanks for all your input and hard work on this topic.
new info has been found and that has assisted in helping myself and John. We are still looking for Annie Craggs birth details.
I have tracked back on John Craggs via the info here and suggestions of where to find info.
I am still looking to connect up the Todd Family to Fanny Massey in and around Sheffield about 1868 to 1870. It is established that she was in this area through he son's birth Certificate being registered in Mansfield.
Any ideas anyone?
Thanks again .... Essnell