RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Dirtypaw on Wednesday 25 October 17 05:35 BST (UK)
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Hi all my name is Craig and i have been perservering for 18 months on a shoe string until today i was put on the right track by Bitza as i had been barking up the wrong tree.I lashed out and purchased a marriage cert for John Nicholls son of William and Augusta Susan Walsh .Much confusion exists due to typos and me looking for to long without forking out for certs..now looking for siblings of John Nicholls born Bishop strotford Staffordshire to William Nicholls and Sarah Nicholls /Nicholls many thanks Craig....QLD
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Hi Craig
Good work with this thread.
On the MC, does John say his parents are William Nicholls, and Sarah Nicholls... no maiden name?!
Do you know when John arrived?!
For others out there John Nicholls bc1836. Died Homebush, Victoria 1906.
bitzar.
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Hi Craig, you have posted this in the wrong section.
You can ask the moderator to move it to the main Australia board where it may just get more notice from those who can assist you.
In what State did the marriage occur, VIC?
Jamjar
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Link to other thread and most relevant post: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=753506.0
“Hi all bit the bullet and purchased a marriage cert under instruction from bitza seem to be back on track detail as follows John Nicholls age 37 bachelor publican m Augusta Susan Walsh 18 spinster ..Johns father William Nicholls occ minister mother name ........Sarah Nicholls/ Nicholls...Augusta father on cert is Charles Edward Walsh also publican mother Elizabeth ann Walsh (Blyth) ...starting to unravel must sus out Sarah ...and John birth at looks like Bishop Stafford Staffordshire....for whom is esq afforded on passenger lists? Ministers...Thanks all Craig”
Jamjar
Added: 1872 2186 NICHOLLS John to WALSH Augusta Susan
Deaths:
1906 5702 NICHOLLS Jno parents Nicholls Wm and Sarah (Nicholls) aged 70 Hbush (21 April, as per probate file)
1946 12741 NICHOLLS Augusta Susan parents WALSH Charles Edward and Elizabeth Ann (Blyth) aged 93 PARKVILLE
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Craig, what are you looking for from the Australian side?
I would start by looking for John on the UK census’.
I can only see one baptism to fit age and Staffordshire, with parents William and Sarah, Dec 1835 and the surname is Nicholson.
Jamjar
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Death notices for Augusta, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22391154
2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204943643
Jamjar
Added: There’s a Probate File for John. https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
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Hi Craig
Could you try to decipher where John states he is born from his mc please?! Do you think it may be Bishop Stortford?!?! Trouble that the village is in Hertfordshire not Staffordshire but there is a John Nicholls b1831 there to the right parents.
Bitzar.
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Hi bitz well spotted these guys were publicans i think should read herefordshire not staffordshire ....thanks
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Jamjar thanks for the assist especially the copy of the last will and testament printed up a treat please
excuse my ettiquette i am all over the place ..hopefully get sorted thanks Craig
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Craig
But is that what you think it reads?!?
Bitzar.
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Can i put you on my heritage.com Nicholls Beswick website so you can see my shamoz thus far...Craig
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Looks like...
William NICHOLLS married Sarah NICHOLLS at Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire 25 Dec1823. Sarah possibly remarried a John BUSH prior to 1851.
Issue, all at Bishops Stortford.
Martha Ann. ch 1825
William. ch 1827
Sarah. ch 1829
John. ch 1832
Henry. ch 1834
Charles. ch 1836
John and Charles possibly in the Workhouse on the 1841 census. Had their father already died by 1841?!
bitzar.
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Yeeha bitza you put me on an emotional roller coaster it appears that Johns siblings you listed are correct as matches occur in heritage matches i just loaded ....Johns birth dates all over the shop ...with who are you most directly related???? THANKS Craig ...In addition found an old essex east london post 2007 in ancestry by sylviapitcher50 that adds more to your valuable info confirming yours...re Sarah re marrying John Bush from Dunmow in Essex
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Hi Craig
I'm glad its coming together for you.
I am related to the James NICHOLLS who drowned in the Avoca River. He is no relation to you. Your John's parents are William NICHOLLS and Sarah NICHOLLS which you discovered from the MC....
This Charles Edward PUGH / WALSH is interesting. How many times was he married / coupled?!?!?!
bitzar.
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Hi again in my confusion those attached to Charles Edward Pugh/Walsh are Ellen Laura Pugh Ballantyne St Clair......Elizabeth Ann Walsh Patterson Blyth....Eliza Pugh Dinighan .Maybe???
We may be indirectly related via Chapman Nicholls link...or my ex deceased was a Pritchard ...thanks Craig
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Jamjar thanks for the assist especially the copy of the last will and testament printed up a treat please
excuse my ettiquette i am all over the place ..hopefully get sorted thanks Craig
Craig,
The digitised document at the Victorian archives is not a will.
As previously stated, it is a series of documents in a file relating to the granting of probate in the estate of John NICHOLLS who died in 1906 without having made a will.
I trust you have read both the two available digitised records because contained in them is a detailed list of the children of your couple and their location at the time of application. As well, their profession/occupation is sometimes stated .
After payment of a debt of 6 pounds, the estate of John NICHOLLS was worth 3 pounds.
The 6 pounds was a loan to pay the licence fee for the hotel.
Sue
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Thanks very much your clarification as to the specifics of the probate documents in question and directing me to part 2 of the documents wich is very informative about jobs and location of family; I wish i had joined up 2 years ago would have saved a lot of time...Craig
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Hi - Your John Nicholls 1831-1906 is the brother of my Great Great Grandfather on my mother's side. They were from Bishops Stortford.
John's Father William Nicholls and Sarah Shed.
John's siblings were Martha 1824-, William 1826-1898, Sarah 1829-1901, Henry 1833-, Charles 1836-1902.
Charles was born in April 1836 after father William died November 1835.
John's brother William 1826-1898 married Elizabeth May and had son William Henry Nicholls 1858, who married Elizabeth Grace Pearson. They had daughter Clara Annie Nicholls who married my Mother's father Ralph John Jordorson.
I have lots of information on my tree in Ancestry.uk but don't know how best to share this with you.
Regards, Peter Wright, Banbury, UK.
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Thanks Peter for you informative addition to my research into my family ....send you a pm for your perusal seems to be an anomily in mine on johns birth date i had 1835 and sarah on marriage cert as nicholls/nicholls and later she married john bush......thanks for your feedback Craig Nicholls
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Craig
An Interesting read:
https://www.sbs.com.au/gold/story.php?storyid=97
bitzar.
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Thanks bitza interesting ...but still to make a link to the character Charlie Pugh / Walsh ...be nice to make claim to a mile long diorama...or Charles walsh pugh do you think he is the publican / actor or another? Another extension of the name has Butler incorporated????
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Craig
This is true!
Yes, I saw that 'Butler' middle name. I wonder where that came from. I worked out that Eliza DINIGHAN and Elizabeth Ann BLYTH must be the same person. Perhaps DINIGHAN was Elizabeth's mothers maiden name, depending on how the clerk asked the question when Augusta Susan was registered in 1853. Perhaps the clerk asked, 'mothers maiden name' so she gave her mothers maiden name instead of the babies and that's why it reads DINIGHAN and not BLYTH.
It seems Elizabeth never married William PATTERSON.
Back to WALSH/PUGH... Do you know what happened to Ellen Laura BALLANTYNE or Elizabeth STEPHENS?!
At Augusta's marriage in 1872 she knew her father to be a 'Publican'.
His obit is a good read but doesn't mention any family:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227536629?searchTerm=charley%20pugh%20walsh&searchLimits=
Death notice:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9078414?searchTerm=charley%20pugh%20walsh&searchLimits=
His DC may be interesting but I'd be worried it wouldn't be accurate regarding his marriages and children if he's your man.
bitzar.
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Bitz your the man thanks for trying to join the links so many anomolies??? These publicans and associates must have led interesting lives....seeya Craig ...My John Nicholls per headstone and marriage cert put him born 1835 others say 1831 maybe 1831 is a baby john deceased?
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Craig
It's possible there was a second baby John, or John changed his age a bit when he married Augusta. He was ALOT older than her!
Where are your PRITCHARD's from?!
bitzar.
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1946 12741 NICHOLLS Augusta Susan parents WALSH Charles Edward and Elizabeth Ann (Blyth) aged 93 PARKVILLE
The index reading is-
NICHOLLS, Augusta Susan
Father Chas Edw WALSH
Mother Eliz Ann BLYTH
At Parkville
Aged 93
Yr 1946
Reg 12741
Craig
I worked out that Eliza DINIGHAN and Elizabeth Ann BLYTH must be the same person. It seems Elizabeth never married William PATTERSON.
bitzar.
In your research into this woman, how often have you seen her referred to as Elizabeth. How often as Eliza?
While Eliza can be a shortened version of Elizabeth, it is also a name on its own and the differentiation may be important.
Sue
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The headstone inscription at Melbourne General Cemetery for Charles Edward Pugh WALSH who died 1902
WALSH
In affectionate remembrance of Charles Edward Pugh WALSH born Holloway, London, Christmas Day 1824 died 13th May 1902 also his wife Isabel Lucy Born Blakebrook Kidderminster 23rd March, 1835 died 17 May 1908
Sue
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The man who died in 1902, publican, married Lucy/Isabel in 1862
Marriage in NSW
Charles Edw PUGH
To Isabel Lucy PARDOE
1862
At Maitland, New South Wales
Reg 2211
Sue
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One chap named Charles Edward PUGH married Ellen Laura.
She had been previously surnamed BALLANTYNE
Married PUGH in the name of St CLAIR.
There is an indexing for a child parents Ellen Laura BALLANTYNE and Henry Frederick St CLAIR
Marriage in Vic.
St CLAIR, Ellen Laura
PUGH, Charles Edward
1857
Reg.1252
Sue
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Another name to throw into the mix is Elizabeth Ann Patterson Blyth Walsh....attach an Unwin also for birth of son...Ellen Laura Pugh St Clair...Eliza Pugh Dinighan...William Storier Patterson...Charles edward pugh ...Charles Edward walsh ...son Edward Patterson Walsh..on marriage cert wedding held at house of Patterson ?? Been in and out of bdm index and Trove and associated freebies looks like another cert coming up wich one ? thank Craig
This quote from your other associated thread linked previously.
It makes very little sense and seems to be very jumbled.
If you are really seeking advice or help, perhaps you could more clearly specify your meaning here.
I suggest to you (as I do to many others) that you use UPPERCASE in your typing to distinguish a surname from given names. It really is a great help and can prevent confusion and it is a 'usual way'
I cannot see how you have made a connection to a son born to a woman Elizabeth BLYTH at Ararat in 1859 named Edward UNWIN with Father Charles UNWIN
Can you elaborate.
On the marriage WALSH/NICOLLS certificate where exactly was the marriage?
Sue
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Many thanks sue the exact place of the marriage between John NICHOLLS and Augusta Susan WALSH was the County of Kara Kara Shire of Avoca Victoria Australia town of Warrenmang at the house of Mr or Mrs PATTERSON ....
Edward Patterson WALSH brother of the previously mentioned Augusta had no date of death only thing
associated was UNWIN / BLYTH....I m getting a real lesson here thanks to all..Craig NICHOLLS
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The marriages located for Charles Edward PUGH/WALSH
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PUGH, Charles Edward to Ellen Laura St CLAIR (see above) and
PUGH Charles Edward to Lucy Isabelle PARDOE see Replies #25 and #26.on page 3 this thread.
The latter is certainly the man who died in 1902
The death of Edward Patterson WALSH whom you call brother to Augusta.
Edward Patterson WALSH
Age 76
At Castlemaine,
Father Chas *Butler Walsh
Mother Elizth Blyth
Year 1934
Reg 15986
*possibly an error on the part of the informant.??
Edward Patterson WALSH had a son named Charles Butler WALSH
I have not located his birth.
Elizabeth Ann BLYTH had at least three children surnamed PATTERSON before she married William PATTERSON in 1883
PATTERSON, Wm. (born Dundee)
WALSH, Elizabeth Ann (born Cork)
Yr 1883
Reg 363
In his will Wiliam PATTERSON bequeaths the small estate to be divided equally between his wife (the executrix) and his two children whom he names as William John and Isabelle Margaret.
Edward Patterson WALSH is not mentioned.
There was the dissolution of a business partnership between William and Edward in 1883.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8510306
Sue
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Great work Sue ...I believe brother was a reference made in an obituary from Augusta referencing her (brother) but Edward Patterson WALSH was possibly her half brother an was born UNWIN wich may explain him not being included in the will of William PATTERSON ?....thanks for your help Craig NICHOLLS.
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I cannot see your ongoing statement of connection between the UNWIN birth at Ararat and the Elizabeth Ann BLYTH of your interest
Birth
UNWIN, Edward.
Father Charles UNWIN
Mother Elizabeth BLYTH
Yr 1859
Reg 3527
Why do you think this is The child Edward Patterson WALSH?
Do you have other evidence suggesting the connection?
I see none.
Sue
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Hi Peter thanks for the reply.. on the copy of the marriage certificate for our John NICHOLLS it reads as mothers name Sarah NICHOLLS/NICHOLLS not Sarah SHED as on your post....?
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Hello again sue i do not have solid proof of the UNWIN WALSH connection however just counted back using date at death of 76 giving an approximation but point taken even though its a small population with a not so common name nothing should be determined without backup....thanks for the lesson....it could be called clutching for straws ...Craig
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Sue
This is what I found that linked Susan Augusta and Edward Patterson.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88044041?searchTerm=elizabeth%20patterson%20nicholls&searchLimits=
I too cannot find a birth for William Patterson WHAT EVER HIS BIRTH SURNAME MAY BE. William Storier PATTERSON does not include him as his issue in his will though. Patterson may of been added as a middle name because of a relationship at a young age.
Charles Edward PUGH also married an Elizabeth STEPHENS in England in 1843.
If Charles Edward PUGH is Charley WALSH then he returned to England in the 1860-70's with his comedy show and then returned to Australia.
bitzar.
EDITED: name error.
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Sue
This is what I found that linked Susan Augusta and William Patterson.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88044041?searchTerm=elizabeth%20patterson%20nicholls&searchLimits=
bitzar.
Yes, I had seen the obituary and there is no question she is the correct woman.
It should be noted according to the author of the obituary-
Her birthdate appears to be1836
Her arrival in Australia appears to be 1845
Her age then was 9 or 10 years.
This is likely too young to be travelling without family or escort and I have not located her arrival or that of Andrew BLYTH, her father (supposedly)
Others may do better in an immigration search.
It should be noted too that she makes her mark on the documents of probate, so was possibly illiterate. The spelling of the surname DINNIGHAN, therefore maybe completely random.
Perhaps a family of similar name escorted her or cared for her in early times.
Or a perhaps it's name she used due to her mother's remarriage etc
You should post on the Irish board to seek her birth etc.Sue
I too cannot find a birth for William Patterson WHAT EVER HIS BIRTH SURNAME MAY BE. William Storier PATTERSON does not include him as his issue in his will though. Patterson may of been added as a middle name because of a relationship at a young age.
bitzar.
I think you mean Edward Patterson WALSH
As mentioned above, there was a dissolution of a partnership same year as the WALSH/PATTERSON marriage. Perhaps it was acrimonious. Parental details may remain unknown, but the informant at the death, I believe, attempted to place the fatherhood with Charles WALSH/PUGH
Sue
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Thanks Petermalc very much for sharing your extension of the WRIGHT family tree UK edition incorporating my NICHOLLS clan ....Craig
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Sue do you believe i may have to resort to seeking out dna match to resolve linage ....or maybe i am dreaming ?
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Sue
If Charles Edward PUGH is Charley WALSH then he returned to England in the 1860-70's with his comedy show and then returned to Australia.
bitzar.
EDITED: name error.
Sue do you believe i may have to resort to seeking out dna match to resolve linage ....or maybe i am dreaming ?
I think from records given, it is clear that Charles Edward PUGH is Charley WALSH.
His then wife Lucy (nee PARDOE) accompanied him when he went to Eng as is evidenced by the birth of three further children to them in England.
As mentioned, she is buried with him.
Circumstantial evidence is strong that this is the same man who had children with Elizabeth Ann BLYTH.
Your Augusta Susan (nee WALSH) used many recognisable family names in naming her children, including PUGH (your great grandfather has this ) and STORIER (William Storier PATTERSON’s mother’s maiden name) and Charles Edward. This evidence supports, but does not prove, the connection.
Susan’s birth certificate would be a worthwhile purchase. This is what is requested at registration of a Victorian birth at that time
Name
Date
Place
Father's name
Father's occupation
Father's age
Father's birthplace
Mother's name
Maiden name
Mother's age
Mother's birthplace
Marriage date
Previous children
The delay in the marriage between William Storier PATTERSON and Elizabeth Ann WALSH (nee BLYTH) is interesting. Several children beforehand.
What was the impediment to an earlier marriage?
Was one or the other still married?
Sue
PS, have you considered my suggestion of an inquiry on the Irish board to learn more about Elizabeth Ann BLYTH born Cork father Andrew?
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Sue thanks again for your most accurate analysis of my ancestry ...i have not get ventured to the Irish side but tried some passenger arrival lists ....on reading the marriage cert over and over i think i can see father deceased 1861...i tried to attach for your perusal ..will get birth cert also ...thanks Craig
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Hi all bit the bullet see attached for your deciphering i wont conclude anything thanks Craig.....
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Sue thanks again for your most accurate analysis of my ancestry ...i have not get ventured to the Irish side but tried some passenger arrival lists ....on reading the marriage cert over and over i think i can see father deceased 1861...i tried to attach for your perusal ..will get birth cert also ...thanks Craig
Yes, I see on the marriage certificate mother gives written permission for the marriage and father deceased 1861.
Suggests very strongly a cover-up line as there was not a marriage.
I am looking at the birth certificate and hoping some of the team with expertise are perusing too. ;D
I do note at the outset that if the marriage took place, Eliza DINNIGHAN was 14 years old. :P
Sue
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The lengthy newspaper obituary for Charley WALSH (1902) says
Born...Christmas Day, 1824, at the Royal
Victory Hotel, Hampstead, London.
The birth certificate states father aged 30 ( born 1823)
At Hampstead Middlesex
So 2 ticks there ;D
Sue
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Bitza sorry for missing your earlier remark re PRITCHARD ours reign originally from Katoomba region ....also my bad re chapman your side not mine ...thanks Craig
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Sue just as well i sent copy of the birth cert out i took it to read Charles pugh 60 ...nasty
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The age at death (1914) of Elizabeth Ann PATTERSON was 78
Born 1835
Age of mother Eliza on the child's birth certificate in 1853 is 18
Born 1835
Sue
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Hi one and all the plot thickens found James HAMER married looks like our Eliza PUGH 1867 had a child James Lewelin Hamer at Moonambel (near town of wedding)... per index vic bdm...maybe?
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All
It also apprears Charles Edward PUGH was 1 year older than he said or thought he was. He was born Christmas Day 1823 and baptised on 18 January 1824.
bitzar.
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All
It also apprears Charles Edward PUGH was 1 year older than he said or thought he was. He was born Christmas Day 1823 and baptised on 18 January 1824.
bitzar.
Ah, well. Adding up even more neatly ;D
In 1865, using the name Charles WALSH, he was living in a house in in Fitzroy, according to the available rates books. He was the occupant while the owner was Frederick GRAY.
The house was brick of three rooms and Charles' occupation was comedian.
Sue
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Hi one and all the plot thickens found James HAMER married looks like our Eliza PUGH 1867 had a child James Lewelin Hamer at Moonambel (near town of wedding)... per index vic bdm...maybe?
This sighting can be discounted.
The marriage indexing gives the bride's birth place as Radnorshire (Wales) and the at least 4 registered births to this couple intrude upon those to Eliza. BLYTH with William PATTERSON with one PUGH/HAMER birth being in 1875.
The registered BLYTH/PATTERSON births began in 1870.
Eliz. BLYTH/DINIGHAN was born in Cork
Sue
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Hi,
Very interesting thread.
I think you will find that it was fine for girls as young as 12 and boys as young as 14 to marry even as recently as the 1930s ... yes, 1930s is not a typo.
JM
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My transcription of the 1872 marriage.
County of Kara Kara, Shire of Avoca
9 June 1872 At house of Mr Paterson, Warrenmang, according to Congregational Ritual
John NICHOLLS, Bachelor, born Bishop Starford, Staffordshire, Eng, Publican, aged 37 of Bung Bong. His parents: William NICHOLLS and Sarah NICHOLLS (maiden name of Nicholls).
To me, William’s occupation reads as Plumber, the Capital letter being ‘shorter’ than the next letter, ‘l’ and the remaining letters being written in haste as the pen’s ink was at a low level.
Augusta Susan WALSH, Spinster, born Melbourne, Vic, no rank or profession specified, aged 18, of Warrenmang. Her parentsL Charles Edward WALSH and Elizabeth Ann WALSH (maiden name of Blythe) Charles occupation as Publican.
Written consent of the mother of the bride (as) father deceased in 1861,
Witnesses : William RAE and James (unsure, perhaps FINLAY)
Bride, Groom and both witnesses signed.
JM
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My transcription of Augusta’s birth
1853 Births in the District of Melbourne
Born Twenty Third July 1853
O’Leary’s Cottage,
Off A’Beckett Street,
Melbourne.
Augusta Susan, a Girl
Father as Charles Edward PUGH, Gentleman 30, born Hampshire, Middlesex
Married 1849, Collingwood
Mother as Eliza PUGH, formerly Denignan, 18 born County Cork, Ireland
Informant as Charles Edward PUGH, Father, O’Leary’s Cottage, off a’Beckett Street, Melbourne.
Noting that in 1849, Victoria was still part of NSW, so perhaps a search of NSW BDM may just turn up a marriage – I did not find one there under PUGH
JM
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Great to have another view on the scans. ;D
Witnesses : William RAE and James (unsure, perhaps FINLAY)
Bride, Groom and both witnesses signed.
JM
Both William RAE and James KINLAY seem to have been farmers in the Warrenmang area at the time.
On Augusta'a birth, I am still going for Hampstead as place of birth for the father Charles.
Other than that, I am agreeing with JM's reading.
I agree the maiden name of mother Eliza, looks like DENIGNAN, but I think even more like DINEGHAN.
Sue
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majm thank for your interpretation / translation i had another look today at the cert stating William NICHOLLS ...I MAGIFIED IT and also saw Plumber as hunter would possible a past time and maybe a game keeper the profession....its doing my head at the age differences but as you said its what may be considered the norm for the era ....thanks for assisting Craig
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:) :) :) Cannot be Hunter, :) that would be an 'm' not an 'n' :) :)
Worthwhile comparing the scribe's handwriting throughout the document, and noting
:D how often he needed to re-fill the quill
:D how letters are joined
:D how letters are formed
See attached snip and consider comparing the
;D capital P in Publican below and on left hand page, and in Paterson and Patterson (both on left hand page)
The heading is Father's Rank or Profession :)
As an aside, I am not familiar with Victoria, where is Bung Bong ? Could it be Bong Bong in NSW?
add
When forming the capital H in that style of handwriting, the connection between the vertical lines is made by an upstroke from the lowest part of the second vertical line back up to midway and then across to the left and back into same midpoint for the following letter to commence being formed. In the attached snip, that following letter commences from the lowest point of that second vertical, so I suggest the second vertical is NOT part of the capital letter. I am not a wordsmith, sorry ... but I am trying to say that the second vertical is actually the letter 'l' and not part of a capital letter at all. :D (I am old enough to have been taught that style of longhand when at Primary school :-X and I still write in that style :-[ )
JM
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I have added to my post :)
and noticed you are online.
So I should also mention that the lower case 'b' in Bachelor and the b versus t concerns in rank or profession support the notion that the occupation has the letter 'b' in it. :) alternatively, the lower case 't' in Minister (Congregational Minister, left hand page) supports the letter being 't' in the occupation ::) but the 'ter' in Paterson and Patterson does not. ;) the clergyman's script is not scribble but .... he was not at all considerate for any 21st century scrutiny ...
JM
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Hi Bung Bong is actually near Avoca Victoria an old gold town close to Maryborough Vic ..thanks for your help Craig
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Craig
I visited Melbourne General Cemetery today. This is Charles Edward PUGH's grave. The monument is difficult to read but its already been transcribed on your thread.
bitzar.
EDIT: I cant attach the pics so I'll email them to you.
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Thanks again bitz for helping me in the exploration of the dark arts ....i guess another part of the sorting the wheat from the chaff is in determining wether there is a gravestone typo or the occupant just likes to bend the truth ....fake news of the 1800s ...but its fun finding out....thanks all ....addendum to my last ref bitz to PRITCHARD I tentatively say Pembrokeshire Wales
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Thanks again bitz for helping me in the exploration of the dark arts ....i guess another part of the sorting the wheat from the chaff is in determining wether there is a gravestone typo or the occupant just likes to bend the truth ....fake news of the 1800s ...but its fun finding out....thanks all ....addendum to my last ref bitz to PRITCHARD I tentatively say Pembrokeshire Wales
Again I am confused about what you are trying to say here.
What dark arts? I assure you that though genealogy is about researching the lives of those now dead, there is nothing dark about the activity. Very odd phrasing you have chosen.
Is there an issue over the accuracy of the information on the Memorial Inscription?
Is that what you mean?
In affectionate remembrance of Charles Edward Pugh WALSH born Holloway, London, Christmas Day 1824 died 13th May 1902 also his wife Isabel Lucy Born Blakebrook Kidderminster 23rd March, 1835 died 17 May 1908
or the occupant just likes to bend the truth ....
The occupants of the grave were not responsible for their own inscription.
Sue
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Hi Sue and others this was my attempt humourous tongue in cheek sarcasm to try and make a point regarding the innacuracies regarding persons trying to hide there true age or circumstance and then this sometimes being tranferred to memorials and documents ...its a steep learning curve for me and find it frustrating when even reported and documented data is not a guarantee of a conclusive outcome but only an educated presentation of data held at the time.....i really really appreciate everyones input ...in future i will attempt to be more precise in my statements Thanks again Craig
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I believe if you very carefully go through and table all the information which has come to light through this thread, you will conclude that Elizabeth Ann BLYTH "wife" of Charles PUGH/WALSH and mother of Augusta is the same woman who married William Storier PATTERSON
I also think you will conclude the Charles Edward "husband" of Eliza and father of Augusta is the same man who married Lucy Isabella PARDOE and died in 1902. He had a careers as both publican and showman/comedian.
Without further certificate purchases it is difficult to confirm anything about Ellen Laura BALLANTYNE in Vic or STEPHENS in England.
Bear in mind not all separations in relationships are unwelcome. Sometimes a parting of the ways suits both parties.
Augusta thought enough of her father to name a child after him, Charles Edward NICHOLLS and another has the PUGH name, so perhaps there was not resentment or acrimony. It may be only a coincidence that Charles' mother was Martha and this name appears too in Augusta's chidren.
If you were very keen to further establish connections, the William PATTERSON/Elizabeth WALSH marriage certificate may reveal something.Up to you.
I am not sure that death or marriage certificates pertaining to Charles would help expose anything.
He seems to have kept a good distance between is BLYTH family and his newer PARDOE family, marrying in NSW and leaving Australia soon after and then returning years later to Melbourne, a good distance from St Arnaud.
Because of this those informing for his death registration may not have given accurate information.
I still do not know what you see as a problem on the Memorial Inscription.
Sue
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Without further certificate purchases it is difficult to confirm anything about Ellen Laura BALLANTYNE in Vic or STEPHENS in England.
Sue
Looking at the England marriage certificate for the union of Elizabeth STEPHENS and Charles Edward PUGH, I would agree that the signature of the man, Charles, is the same as on the birth registration for Augusta Susan.
It seems therefore correct, there was a previous marriage to STEPHENS in England before the PARDOE one in Australia.
Sue
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Sue the inscription on the headstone at the Melbourne cemetery for Charles Edward PUGH ''Charley Walshe'' reads born 1924 i believe should read 1923 as previously stated not a problem i guess just another anomily....i wish to thank you immensely for concise analysis given on my family...to date.
Craig
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Hi all i took it on advice of my learned friends to purchase another copy of a marriage certificate for William PATTERSON and Elizabeth Ann WALSH ....find attached for deciphering and analysis and sharing
thanks Craig
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Having a look now and I hope others are too.
Widow
Date of husband's death not known. Not heard of for nineteen years.
This means she claims last contact 1864.
ADDING. This is interesting because he married in NSW in 1862
Sue
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Children of former marriage
One child living
Three dead.
So, Augusta probably the living.
Elizabeth does not appear to attribute Edward Patterson WALSH to the former marriage as he was clearly living in 1883. So a different father
Who were the three deceased? ::)
Married by by the Rev James Abel MARSLAND.
At Wesleyan Methodist Church Ararat.
Does this again raises notion of the UNWIN birth at Ararat
Edward UNWIN, Mother Elizabeth BLYTH Father Charles UNWIN. 1859 Reg 3227
Sue
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Thanks Sue for your input i have been trying to find the missing children without success and agree with 19 year gap statement ...been trying to find probate document in Victoria for Charles Edward PUGH without success ...nothing in his last wifes Isabel Lucy PUGH probate only a link to his three daughters ....let me guess maybe another certificate???
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It was not until 1853 that civil registration of births marriages and deaths was introduced in Victoria.
Some early church records from years before that can be seen, but not all by any means.
It is possible there was a marriage between Charles WALSH and the young teenager Elizabeth Ann BLYTH before 1853, as claimed on the birth certificate for Augusta. It is also possible there were 3 births to them, all of whom died.
Edward Patterson WALSH remains an "unclaimed birth" No father attributed clearly.
I have not sighted any reference to Charles WALSH in Victoria before 1851. Around that time he appeared as an actor/comedian/singer.
His child in England in the marriage to Elizabeth STEPHENS, named Mary Martha PUGH, was born in 1846.
So it would suggest an arrival here between 1845 and 1851/2
On the subject of certificates. It is a bit difficult to advise. Sometimes one certificate might hold just that little key needed, other times they are not such value.
To identify Charles as the same man, the certificate of marriage to PARDOE may assist. The personal details he gives on the document may be distorted deliberately by him, but the signature may well be persuasive as we have 2 other examples to compare from previous certificates, the birth of Augusta and the marriage in England to STEPHENS.
However, this may be an expensive exercise as NSW certificate copies are a little costly, with most people settling for a transcription instead.
I feel the death certificate of Elizabeth Ann (nee BLYTH) may contain a lot of inaccuracies due to the ignorance or misinformation of the informant and possibly the wish to keep "family secrets"
However, it depends what the budget runs to I suppose.
Sue
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Sue do you mean Charles PUGH in the "before1853" reference ......do you think Charles Edward PUGH may have used his stage name on certificates in the name of WALSH ...or is the father of Edward Patterson WALSH a vital missing link ....thanks Craig
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Sue do you mean Charles PUGH in the "before1853" reference ......
Yes, That is the name the man married under. It was presumably the name he was using in 1853 and possibly before.
.or is the father of Edward Patterson WALSH a vital missing link ....thanks Craig
When you say "missing link" can you say the link between who and who?
Edward Patterson was surnamed WALSH simply because it was the name the mother was known as at that time. There is no evidence of another marriage (if in fact there was ever a first one!) until PATTERSON .
It is possible at registration of the birth of Edward she used the father's surname, it does not mean there had been a marriage. Patterson as a middle name for Edward may have been added for any number of social reasons.
Her daughter was surnamed WALSH, it would look odd if the son was not WALSH in the absence of a further marriage.
On the marriage certificate of Elizabeth (1883) she states Of children of the previous marriage1 child is living and 3 children are deceased
The living child is Augusta.
William S. PATTERSON does not claim fatherhood of Edward. See his will.
In my opininion, the father of Edward is not relevant in soundly identifying the two people Elizabeth Ann (nee BLYTH) and Charles Edward (AKA WALSH) which has I think become your purpose.
When carefully tabulated and studied, there are persuasive links through the certified events of these two people as well as news items supporting.
Sue
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Thanks very much Sue for you precise reply.So people can declare whatever they want in this era unsubstantiated without supporting documents???
In Charles Edward PUGH obituary mention was made of "Job's Castle" Holloway being his first licence cannot find anything making reference to this ....does anyone know of this place c 1840 .Thanks again Craig
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Yes, I can see PUGH as licensee of Jobs Castle from about 1845.
The address is clear
This is a subscription website so I cannot see more than this.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1840-01-01/1849-12-31?basicsearch=%22jobs%20castle%22&phrasesearch=jobs%20castle&retrievecountrycounts=false®ion=london%2c%20england&mostspecificlocation=london%2c%20england&sortorder=score
In this series of items you will see the first shows the license of the Jobs Castle is transferred from him to another man.
The date is 27th March 1849. This is the year he supposedly married the 14 year old Elizabeth in Victoria.
There maybe others who can help you with a clearer reading through subscription.
Scroll through and you will be able to decipher PUGH in association with the hotel from as early as 1845
Sue
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I would say this collection of items is also him. November/December 1849
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1840-01-01/1849-12-31?basicsearch=%22charles%20edward%20pugh%22&phrasesearch=charles%20edward%20pugh&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=score
This collection of repeated items re an audit in March 1850, may well also be the right man.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1850-01-01/1899-12-31?basicsearch=%22charles%20edward%20pugh%22&phrasesearch=charles%20edward%20pugh&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=score
Sue
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Thanks Sue your a gem ....i managed to dowload a few free copies in full format for my files...the young Eliza possibly was at the "Jobs Castle'' ???
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...the young Eliza possibly was at the "Jobs Castle'' ???
In order to maintain an intelligible flow to your thread here, you need to expand on this statement, list sources, and where possible, post links to original information.
Sue
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Sorry Sue i got excited and forgot there are others in the forum .... still getting used to the ways of presenting information ....
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Hi Craig,
So in the fuller format which you have managed to see, is there any further information about the man? What was the content of the material?
Is your remark about Eliza a speculative thought, or do you see something suggesting she was there?
Electoral Roll 1845
Tower Hamlets
PUGH, Charles Edward.
40 Lower Clifton St,
St Leonard , Shoreditch.
A house.
No obvious electoral enrolment after that year.
I cannot locate his wife on the 1851 census.
Elizabeth nee STEPHENS, nor the child Mary Martha born 1846.
There is a death which may possibly be her.
Deaths Sep 1891
PUGH Mary Martha
Aged 45
Barnet
3a/113
Sue
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Sue reference your reply 64 did you have copy of signature of Charles PUGH on marriage cetificate with STEPHENS ?? I have no evidence of Eliza BLYTH being in England pure speculation. Would Charles
PUGH have to be present for Bankrupcy and Audit in 1849 1850? In the report on audit last address prior to reads Cross st Islington East Lane Old Kent Rd tried to attach ref to big will keep trying
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'Jobs Castle' Charles Edward Pugh stated in his obituary to be his first licence hotel ....1849 only
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Picture attributed to Wikitree have no reason to confirm or deny it being Charles Edward PUGH in his latter years any opinions
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Here are snips from the two certificates with his signature.
Sue
Edit by Moderator: image removed at OP's request.
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And the other one from the Birth Certificate.
Edit by Moderator: image removed at OP's request.
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Here is a bit about the Melbourne Photo Studio where the picture was taken which you have posted.
It was favoured by the local stage entertainers.
https://ozvta.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/mendelssohns-studios-1612015.pdf
Sue
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Isabel Lucy PARDOE/PUGH one of the wives/partners we think of Charles Edward PUGH per Seal on Wikitree
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Sue thanks for the copies of signatures for Charles PUGH are very similar.....Craig
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Deleted poor quality image :-X
Sue
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Sue should i take down the photos ?? I thought the photos of signature were good enough for the purpose of comparison..have been looking through ozvta site looking at the history of the stage and its artists could not see 'Charley Walshe' i believe he was of an earlier era and a lesser character ...i found and listened to a rendition (not by himself)of a song that was his first performance on stage and also his last performance as stated in his obituary.. ref trove .The song was called 'Oft in the Stilly Night' not high spirited but an interesting ballad....seeya Craig
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I cannot advise you about the images you have posted. Copyright is a complex matter on Rootschat.
I requested my images of the signatures to be removed for other "security" reasons and, the last image which I deleted, was not valid in its quality. It related to the bankruptcy of Charles Edward PUGH. Item date 22nd Feb 1850
Yes, the signatures, which I am glad you have seen before removal, are extremely similar.
Perhaps in the future, you will see the man's signature on the marriage between Lucy PARDOE and Charles Edward PUGH and be able to make that final link across all three documented events where Charles is involved. Then you will have sounder evidence of their being one in the same man ;D
Sue
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Found reference to prove 'charlie walsh'...... was an actor of sorts on the ozvta site ..see att ...'Harlequin and the Genii of the Green '
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Yes, there are many references to Charles/Charley WALSH/WALSHE through news items.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
I have used a variety of versions of his names in the search box with PUGH/ WALSH, full name,one name, initials etc. and he can be tracked fairly well in Australia using the date filter.
No sighting so far before 1852.
No immigration record has come to light either.
Sue
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Find attached copy of marriage certificate for Charles Edward PUGH and Ellen Laura ST CLAIR at BALLARAT VICTORIA 1857
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This bloke kills me!!! Now he's a bachelor and a Chemist, is it?!?! He's definitely an actor..... no offence Craig.
Has anyone found Elizabeth STEPHENS' death or Mary Martha on any census?!
bitzar.
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Oh My Goodness!
He did marry Ellen too. What a good discovery Craig.
In the Schoolhouse by license.
Same confident signature.
He was a "Chemist at present acting on the stage" and as bitzar says, off it too ;D
Can you tell me the maiden name of Martha, his mother as shown there. ?ington. Is it MORNINGTON
This bloke kills me!!! Now he's a bachelor and a Chemist, is it?!?! He's definitely an actor..... no offence Craig.
Has anyone found Elizabeth STEPHENS' death or Mary Martha on any census?!
bitzar.
No, I have not definitely sighted either of them. I did put up a death which might be Mary Martha PUGH.
Sue
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Love the positive feedback all ....Sue ...Martha MONNINGTON /PUGH born 1797 LINTHALL STARKES HEREFORDSHIRE died 1824...do you think the new bride has an 'nom de plume' for stage???...mixing drinks and mixing chemicals ...similar ? ..
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Bitzar initially i thought cinematographer ...but i saw chemist also ...thanks Craig :-[ Charles PUGH born at pub i think home... as father listed as inkeeper of Royal Victory Hotel Hampstead 1823 as stated on news obituary for Charles PUGH..
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Love the positive feedback all ....Sue ...Martha MONNINGTON /PUGH born 1797 LINTHALL STARKES HEREFORDSHIRE died 1824...do you think the new bride has an 'nom de plume' for [/u]stage???...mixing drinks and mixing chemicals ...similar ? ..
Why do you think that? She married in her true name, I believe.
Her name was Ellen Laura StCLAIR. She had had a child whose father was Henry Frederick StCLAIR. She was nee BALLANTYNE.
Sue
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Sue she was written as an actress on marriage cert wondering wether she has a stage name also ???I picked up that she was prev married ST CLAIR and had a child .......looking at another angle for name at death...thanks
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There is a will on Ancestry for Edward PUGH, Charles Edward PUGH's father, 1848. I always find the writing difficult but I think it says he had already given CEP 2 hundred pounds and thought that was enough so he wasn't going to give him anymore!!! I think it also mentions that 'something' may of occurred. All his other children received as well as his 2nd wife Susannah.
Could this be why he left England about this time?!?!
bitzar.
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Hi Bitzar in 1849 1850 Charles PUGH obtained his first licence for JOBS CASTLE INN HOLLOWAY ENGLAND then went bankrupt as proven by a signed document ..presented by Sue..i dont think there is any proof of him being in AUSTRALIA BENDIGO until 1852 although he states as being with Eliza BLYTH from 1849 COLLINGWOOD per daughter Augusta PUGHS birth cert 1853 ... I think???
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The will of Edwards PUGH, the father in the passage concerning Charles Edward says-
...Having given my son Charles Edward Pugh two hundred pounds during my lifetime, I do not think it right to leave him any more. I give and bequeath to my son Walter.......
I suspect he spent some of it on a fare to Australia ;)
Sue
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Goodmorning all i note that Martha PUGH Charles PUGHS birth mother died very soon after his birth 23 Dec 1823 ...in 1824...i dont yet have the siblings of the family ..but step familys can be difficult..wondering if assisted passage may have been attempted as a CHEMIST or was it used later to catch the actress.. bankrupt doesnt sound as .....glamorous ...would bankrupt from ENGLAND be able to run a business in AUSTRALIA??? Craig
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It looks that Martha PUGH nee MONNINGTON was buried at Mt Mary's Islington 4th Feb 1834, aged 36. Widowed Edward married shortly after on 13 Mar 1834 to Susannah DERRY at St Luke's. Appears that after CEP and Walter that there were four more children to Susannah... Henrietta, Susannah, Jane, and Alexander (after his mothers father).
bitzar.
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Thanks bitz took my date off "monnington one name study" it said AFTER 1824 thanks for clearing up my records ...and giving extra info ..Craig
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Craig,
For your records and interest-
This information is from the records of the Ballarat Cemetery.
Ellen Sarah PUGH was aged 20 months at death
Date of death was 8/3/1860
Her burial location
Loc NK (This means a specific area cannot be stated. It was most likely a public grave.)
Her last address was Armstrong Street, Ballarat.
I hope you have made note of some of the dates and details on the marriage certificate for PUGH/St CLAIR.
They married 18th June 1857 and she was widowed 18th June 1855.
The child, Walter St CLAIR, with father Henry Frederick St CLAIR was born 1857.
::)
Sue
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Thanks Sue for the cross check and confirmation ...updated myheritage and updated hard copies of certs ....i usually cross check new names with bdmvic index ...seeya Craig
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Deleted fake news......thanks
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Purchased will of Edward Pugh its a never ending jigsaw test the eyeballs :o :o :o