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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: sheenamac on Thursday 26 October 17 05:59 BST (UK)
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Elizabeth was born in Greenock in 1862 to Thomas Paterson and Elizabeth Singleton. I have her birth certificate, her marriage certificate and the census for 1911 (she married James Stewart). However, although I can find her parents and siblings in numerous censuses from 1851-1901, I can't find her in any census during that time. She could have been boarded out, but she would have been very little at the time of the 1871 census (the first during her lifetime). Any ideas?
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Hi ,
Could you confirm her marriage details ?
I see an 1882 marriage in Greenock for an Elizabeth McInt. Paterson and JOHN Stewart.
ev
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There is a Elizabeth Stewart in the 1891 census but with a husband John not James
1891 census address 116,Drumfrocher Road Greenock Renfrewshire
John Stewart age 34 born Ireland occupation sugar house labourer
Elizabeth Stewart ( Elizabeth McIntyre Paterson ) age 28 born Greenock
Alexander Stewart age 5
Thomas Stewart age 3
Margaret Stewart age 1 ....All born Greenock Renfrewshire
1901 census still at the same address
John Stewart age 44 b Ireland ( Foreman Chemical )
Elizabeth Stewart age 38 b Greenock
Alexander Stewart age 15 Greenock
Thomas Stewart age 13 Greenock
Maggie Stewart age 11 Greenock
Elizabeth Stewart age 8 Greenock
Hannah Stewart age 7 Greenock
Sarah Stewart age 1 Greenock
Is this your family on the later census forms ?
Rosie
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Thank you, Rosie. Yes, her husband is John not James, my mistake. I'd really love to know where she was between being born and being married.
Sheena
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Yes it's a strange one not being with the family ???..There are a few records on the 1871 /1881 census but hard to say if it is the right Elizabeth ..What was her address on her Marriage certificate and her occupation ..There is a Elizabeth Paterson age 10 down as a visitor on the 1871 census at Greenvale Street Bridgeton Glasgow with a Joseph and Mary Bustin ..Her place of birth is down as just Glasgow ..There is a marriage for a Joseph Bustin to a Mary Paterson 1873 High Church Glasgow this Mary Paterson was born Ireland 1844 ...maybe some relation to Thomas Paterson and then Elizabeth could be the daughter of Mary ???
Rosie
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Thanks Rosie. She was born in Greenock (which has never been considered part of Glasgow). I had a look at two census records for EPs approximately the right age but they seemed to be with their real families. In the 1851 census, her parents are staying with a McIntyre family (possibly why she has the middle name of McIntyre) and I don't know what relation, if any, they would be to the family. It's quite peculiar. I had wondered if she had spent long times in hospital but I assume she'd still show up in a census. At the time of her marriage she lived in Greenock, also is the case in the 1911 census.
Sheena
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Yes very strange Sheena see them on the 1861 census with the McIntyre family but don't seem to find The McIntyre family on later census forms ..I think if she was in a hospital she would still appear on census forms
Rosie
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Where were Thomas Paterson and Elizabeth Singleton married & what was his occ. on Elizabeth's birth?
Could he have been a Journeyman or specialist occ. which took him to different places?
Annie
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born in Greenock (which has never been considered part of Glasgow)
Just a thought...
Could this have been a slight error with the place being stated 'Port' Glasgow but possibly the 'Port' seemed insignificant to whoever wrote the details & assumed Glasgow whereas Port Glasgow is in Greenock :-\
Annie
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Where were Thomas Paterson and Elizabeth Singleton married & what was his occ. on Elizabeth's birth?
Could he have been a Journeyman or specialist occ. which took him to different places?
Annie
Thomas Patterson and Elizabeth are in Greenock on the 1871/1881/1891 /1901 census no Elizabeth with them on any census forms ...
His occupation Labourer /Sugarhouse Labourer / Labourer in chemical work
Several trees have his marriage 1858 in Ireland
Rosie
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thanks all. You've raised a couple of good points. Port Glasgow is a reasonable thought to consider. Her parents were married in Lurgan, Armagh, and he worked as a sugarhouse labourer by all accounts. Other children are on the census records but Elizabeth (eliza) just goes missing. My guess is that she's been boarded out, but why and where remains the mystery. Her address at the time of her marriage is the same as her husband's, and her mother is listed as Elizabeth Black and not Singleton. Even that error might suggest a distance between her and her parents, though her father and brother are with her in the 1911 census.
Sheena
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I've been following this but as yet cannot help. I have Thomas on the db 1881 and 1891 - a labourer but no trade mentioned in 1871 - and can't find him in 1901. He'd have been a widower which might be making it more difficult. Maybe Rosie or Sheena can point him out, please.
Can be no help with place of work. No employee lists appear to have survived, and with Greenock been a small town each of the sugarhouses would have been within walking distance. Map of sugarhouses at www.mawer.clara.net/loc-greenock.html .
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see them on the 1861 census with the McIntyre family but don't seem to find The McIntyre family on later census forms ..I think if she was in a hospital she would still appear on census forms
Are the McIntyre's b Ireland?
Could it be they returned to Ireland taking Elizabeth with them & the name being a good possibility of a family connection?
Annie
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I've been following this but as yet cannot help. I have Thomas on the db 1881 and 1891 - a labourer but no trade mentioned in 1871 - and can't find him in 1901. He'd have been a widower which might be making it more difficult. Maybe Rosie or Sheena can point him out, please.
1871 census address 1 Sir Michael Street Greenock Renfrewshire
Thomas Paterson age 30 b Ireland ( labourer )
Elizabeth Paterson age 26 b Ireland
James Paterson age 12 b Greenock
Mary Ann Paterson age 7 b Greenock
Maria Paterson age 5 b Greenock
Margaret Paterson age 11 months b Greenock
Death for Elizabeth Paterson 1892 Greenock age 48 ref 564/2545 other surname Singleton ..Think her age might be wrong as going by her marriage in 1858 she would have just been 14
Have see the birth certificate on a tree for the birth of Elizabeth McIntyre Paterson and it lists her parents as Thomas Paterson and Elizabeth Singleton with a marriage date for this couple 1858 Ireland ...
Marriage and death has the mother's name as Elizabeth Black is this your tree Sheena? might be worth while getting the death certificate for the mother ...
Rosie
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Did Thomas Paterson marry again ? as there is a possibility this is him on the 1901 census
Address 10.Inchgreen Street Greenock
Thomas Paterson age 57 b Ireland ( labourer in chemical work )
Margaret Paterson age 63 b Ireland
There is a marriage for a Thomas Paterson to a Margaret Patton 1894 Johnstone and Elderslie
Rosie
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Thanks, Rosie.
From the excellent Intimations at Inverclyde Library ...
Death Patterson Elizabeth 1892
Elizabeth Singleton, wife of Thomas Paterson, died at 5 Tobago St, Greenock in November 1892 (Greenock Telgraph 12.11.1892)
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Interesting that if Thomas was a chemical worker in 1901 census, then both he and John Stewart possibly worked together 1891 (sugar), 1901 (chemical works where John was foreman and maybe in a position to provide his father-in-law with work)
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Yes they most probably did work together still no luck finding Elizabeth ??? maybe she was spending time in Ireland with family members
Rosie
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See Reply #12
I haven't seen the census with the McIntyres but it if they had children b Scotland it may be worth checking a child's BC to find out the mother's m/s to see if a connection can be made i.e. a reason Elizabeth was with them :-\
Annie
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See Reply #12
I haven't seen the census with the McIntyres but it if they had children b Scotland it may be worth checking a child's BC to find out the mother's m/s to see if a connection can be made i.e. a reason Elizabeth was with them :-\
Annie
1861 Census address 4,Sir Michael Street Greenock Renfrewshire
John McIntyre age 30 born Tyrone Ireland occupation blacksmith
Mary McIntyre age30 born Armagh Ireland
Thos Patterson age 26 sugarhouse labourer
Elisabeth Patterson age 24
Jas Patterson b Greenock 7 months
Thomas McIntyre at 28 b Tyrone
No children for this couple
Thought I had found this couple in the 1871 Census address 1,Bruce Street Greenock
John McIntyre age 30 (blacksmith house shoe ) Horse ..born Ireland note same age
Mary Anne McIntyre at 35 born Ireland
Eliza McIntyre age 9 born Greenock daughter..
There is a birth for a Eliza McIntyre 1861 Greenock so I would say this is the daughter of this couple ???
Rosie
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What was her address on her Marriage certificate
Her address at the time of her marriage is the same as her husband's,
??? Can you tell us what that address was please & the names of the witnesses?
There's this :-\...
1881
Lizzie Paterson 18 Servant, b Paisley, Renfrewshire (not Greenock) :-\
5 Stow St, Paisley Low Church, Paisley
Registration Number 573
Registration district Paisley
County Renfrewshire
ED 64
Household schedule number 77
LINE 20
Roll cssct1881_174
Others in the household all surname Percy, all b Renfrew
Francis 34
Agnes 33
Lizzie 7
Jane 5
Agnes 4
Isabella 3
Rebecca 1
Lizzie Paterson 18
Annie
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HI everyone. I'm picking up the pieces again after a year and I've been re-reading your comments. I've found a Greenock death certificate for an Ann Singleton, ms Blaikley, 1880 ae 60. Widow of (1) John Black and (2) Thomas Singleton. This might explain why Elizabeth McIntyre Paterson has her mother listed with the surname Black on her marriage and death certificate. Ann died at 19 Sir Michael Street, and the death was registered by her son John Black, 27 Sugarhouse Lane. I suppose it's possible that this Ann is the mother of Elizabeth Singleton, but I don't have much to go on. Although I've found John Black on a number of census records, I don't have enough to identify him, and I haven't found Ann on any census for Greenock. Any thought?
Regards Sheena
(I promise I won't pack my FH away for another year)
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Can you give the details of Patersons staying with MacIntyre's In 1851 please
There was a very convuluted story in my family involving these names
An adopted son + 2 MacIntyre children who were actually Patersons
I.ll have a look and see if dates and places correspond
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Brilliant. It's night time here in Australia and we're going out for dinner with friends, but I'll have a look at it tomorrow.
Sheena
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Jusat a thought. In an 1861 census somewhere upthread is a child Mary Anne, aged 7. Could she have had a change of name to Elizabeth at some point? Have you found her in any later records?
Edit (later) No, that won't wash.
From the (community indexed) IGI the family were
Eliza McIntyre born 24 May 1862
Mary Ann born 27 March 1864
Maria born 12 April 1866
Thomas and William born 17 April 1868
Margaret 6 April 1870
Thomas born 6 April 1872
Maybe Elizabeth was just left off the census by mistake in 1871 when the enumerator copied the schedule into the enumeration book? It can happen.
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Am I right in thinking you haven't found Elizsbeth s birth records yet ?
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Have you checked the death certificate of Thomas Paterson and the marriage certificate of Mary Paterson to Joseph Bustin to see if they were siblings?
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HI BrigidMac
Re the Paterson/McIntyre connection. Census Sir Michael Street, Greenock 1861. John McIntyre, 30,head, Blacksmith b Tyrone, Ireland. Mary McIntyre, 30, b Armagh, Thomas Paterson, 26, Boarder, b Armagh, Elizabeth Paterson, 24, b Armagh, Thomas McIntyre, 28, boarder, b Tyrone. The "missing" baby Elizabeth (b1862) has been given the middle name of McIntyre. Some thoughts are that Mary MIntyre might be the sister of Thomas Paterson, and that Thomas McIntyre might be John's brother. I've got a few ideas to follow up.
Let me know if this gives you any ideas.
Sheena
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Sorry my MacIntyre Paterson combined family was later and in Campbell town Argyll
Widow MacIntyre living with 5 children and a lodger : Dougald Paterson. Her husband had died 8 years before and the last 2 children were acknowledged as father Paterson on baptism records and army ..the 7 year old is in doubt and I have family records which name a third man ....DNA may provide proof in future .
The mother's own father had worked abroad and had another family as did his abandoned wife .these children go by various spellings of her maiden name her official husband's name and occasionally the birth father .The eldest was said to be adopted because early in the marriage the couple kept losing babies due to "blood incompatibility " so it's possible none of the surviving children were actually from the legitimate marriage .If your lot are similar it may be easier to search for them by first names ! Good luck
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HI Rosie. I've just been working through your thoughts. I found Elizabeth in the 1871 census under the name of ELIZABETH McINTYRE (no Paterson). I have since found the censuses in 1891 and 1901 you referred to. I haven't found her in 1881. On the 1911 census, her father Thomas and one of her brothers is present. Thomas was now widowed from Margaret Patton (reference 1901 census).
I have her marriage certificate and she has no occupation. Her address at marriage is 6 Laird Street.
Re her father's occupation - he was a sugarhouse labourer. It looks like they came direct to Greenock from Ireland and stayed there. Elizabeth McIntyre Paterson was born in Greenock and the parents' names are correct. I have a copy of their marriage record. I might have found an explanation for her mother's ms being given as Black on her marriage certificate, though.
I found a death certificate for Ann Singleton (ms Blaikley) who had been widowed twice - husband no 1 was John Black and husband no 2 was Thomas Singleton. I think that this Ann is Elizabeth Singleton's mother. Her son, John Black, who registered her death, was born in Ireland and he could have been known as Elizabeth's half-brother, hence the confusion with the surname.
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The witnesses at the marriage of Elizabeth McIntyre Paterson and John Stewart are Peter Anderson and Mary McNeill. The 1881 census for Lizzie Paterson shows she was born in Paisley, but I have the BC and she was born in Greenock.
Re reference to Mary Ann. She is my direct ancestor so the record is correct. I've checked the marriage cert of Joseph Bustin, but his wife is not the sister of Thomas Paterson.
In my last post I made a reference to John Black. He was actually John Singleton Black. He was born after his father's demise. The middle name gives some credence to my belief that Ann formed a relationship with Thomas Singleton.
Thanks heaps everyone for your thoughts on this one. I have filled in some gaps and raised more questions (isn't it always the way!).
To sugarbakers. We have communicated in the past. I'm a Greenock girl now living in Australia and so very many of my relations/ancestors were labourers in the refinery - most recently my b-i-l and my grandfather (both in Walkers).
Sheena
Sheena
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Hi Sheena with reference to the 1881 census for Lizzie Paterson it's still a possibility what was her occupation on her marriage certificate ?
Rosie
Added just read the post again and seen there was no occupation for Elizabeth on her marriage certificate :(
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HI everyone. I'm picking up the pieces again after a year and I've been re-reading your comments. I've found a Greenock death certificate for an Ann Singleton, ms Blaikley, 1880 ae 60. Widow of (1) John Black and (2) Thomas Singleton. This might explain why Elizabeth McIntyre Paterson has her mother listed with the surname Black on her marriage and death certificate. Ann died at 19 Sir Michael Street, and the death was registered by her son John Black, 27 Sugarhouse Lane. I suppose it's possible that this Ann is the mother of Elizabeth Singleton, but I don't have much to go on. Although I've found John Black on a number of census records, I don't have enough to identify him, and I haven't found Ann on any census for Greenock. Any thought?
Regards Sheena
(I promise I won't pack my FH away for another year)
Have you checked the marriage for John Singleton Black
31/12/1869 Greenock
Spouse Sarah Fyfe
On SP 1870
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Yes, his marriage confirms that his mother is Ann Blaikley and John Black. I can't confirm who he is on census records, or haven't so far. i'd to find the death of Thomas Singleton but haven't thus far.
Sheena
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This looks like John Black on the 1871 census address 31,Charles Street Greenock age 38 Labourer born Ireland
Sarah Black age 38 born Greenock
John Black age 8 born Ireland
Sarah Black 7 months
1881census address 21 Sir Michael Street Greenock
John Black age 45 born Armagh Ireland occupation sugarhouse labourer
Sarah Black age 40 born Greenock
Sarah Black age 4 born Greenock ( This is the second Sarah )
Annie Black age 2 born Greenock
Thomas Black age 6 months born Greenock
Thomas and Ann Black are in Industrial School in Greenock on the 1891 census
There is a possible 2 deaths in Greenock for John Black between 1881 =1891
Thomas Black is back with his mother Sarah on the 1901 Census
Rosie
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Thank you Rosie. It's always exciting to be reminded how much can be discovered from so long ago
Sheena
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Blimey. When I wanted to have a look at the 1881 census for John and Sarah Black, I discovered I'd already purchased to view this document. I had, but I'd done so to see the census records of Thomas and Elizabeth Patterson - they lived up the next close. The Blacks are in 21 Sir Michael and the Pattersons are in 19. Given that I believe that Elizabeth's mother is also the mother of John Black, this just adds to the story.
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You can view the 1881 LDS census record for free on Scotland's People ..I think you need to look in Ireland now to get further back . :)
Rosie
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Thanks Rosie. I've been using Scotland's People for many years. I'm planning to make a list of all of my Irish questions, and purchase some time on the appropriate site.
Sheena
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Good luck with the Irish side I have never been very successful ::) We are so lucky with our Scottish records so much information on the statutory records ;)
Rosie
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You are so right. Scotlands People is a terrific resource. Rootschat and people like yourself are priceless. Thanks again.
Sheena
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There is a possible 2 deaths in Greenock for John Black between 1881 =1891
Rosie
There are 6 deaths listed on Intimations. Rosie has dismissed 4 of them because of age or occupation, and we are left with these two possibilities, though the age at death of the first makes him too old ...
John Black died at 30 Roxburgh Street, Greenock on 16th February 1890 age 85 (Greenock Telegraph 17.2.1890)
John Black, fireman, 10 East Shaw Street, died, on 13th August 1882 as the result of an accident at Ingleston Sugar Refinery (Greenock Telegraph & Greenock Advertiser 14.8.1882)
The latter seems logical (and has been sitting on my Fatalities webpage for donkey's years). I've always considered that a fireman at that time was employed by the company to maintain the fires for the boilers rather than put them out ! Maybe the local newspapers would give more detail of the accident and John's family.
To sugarbakers. We have communicated in the past. I'm a Greenock girl now living in Australia and so very many of my relations/ancestors were labourers in the refinery - most recently my b-i-l and my grandfather (both in Walkers).
Sheena
Thank you, Sheena. Yes, I continue to search for all mentions of sugar ... and keep researching. No refineries left now in Greenock, Liverpool, Bristol or London. Tate & Lyle still working, but that now has American owners !
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What's wonderful about this is that I've only just discovered the Black connection. The Family Tree is truly the largest, never-ending puzzle. Thanks.
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Hi Sheena & sugarbakers
i m not sure if your both old Greenockians,
but the intimations from the telegraph is a site wel worth bookmarking,
also the old Watt library is a place worth visiting it has the census
from 1841 to 1891 for Greenock and surounding areas all transcribed,
and lots of old telegraph clipping from way back,
like this one finded 2 shillings for running an illegal sheebeen
of course i deny all knowledge of that person .
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Sugarbakers I would say the later one looks good ..I think I had his wife as a boader somewhere on the 1891 Census will need to have another look
Rosie
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Possible record lodging with a William and Agnes Buntain
At 13,Mill Street Greenock
Sarah Black age 45 occupation weaver in cloth factory
Getting the original from SP will let you know if she is down as a widow
Rosie
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Hi
been reading your posts and given that Ann Singleton Black
died at 19 Sir Michael st in 1880 i d say its a safe bet,
she was living with Elizabeth and Thomas at the time.
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Regarding Elizabeth's middle name .do her family follow traditional Scottish naming pattern Do you know how many sisters she had ?
If she is not named after a grandmother
Maybe the name came from a great grandmother .which could nudge you toward the next generation
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Hi Rosie. I've had a look for Sarah with the Buntains and haven't found her. I'm missing the 1891 census but haven't found her in SP. I believe I've found the right John Black. He was killed when he fell from the top of a steam boiler in the sugar refinery. (thanks sugarman) I've also got his death certificate which fits with his parents being John Black (dec) and Ann Blaikley. The death was registered by his brother in law, Thomas Paterson. This fits with my believe that Thomas's wife, Elizabeth Singleton, is John's sister (perhaps half).
Each answer raises another question - it's very exciting.
Someone asked about Elizabeth Paterson's middle name being McIntyre. My theory is that Mrs McIntyre is the sister of Thomas Paterson and her middle name fits with the Scottish tradition of recognising family members.
Another question was whether I was from Greenock. I grew up there until 1974, my sister still lives there, and I visit often - I usually manage a visit to the Watt Library.
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It would be unusual for a child to be named after her aunt unless she had older sisters already named after mother's mother, fathers mother.third daughter usually takes mother's name
My family stuck rigidly to this order * using first name and maiden surname of the correct ancestror
except one example where child was named after her father's first wife who'd died young .
(people have various other examples .
Sometimes middle names were used to identify birth father )
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Hi Sheena ,you will find Sarah Black age 45 in Greenock West ref number 564/2/45/18 on SP
Also William Buntain same reference number ..That's good you got the death certificate for John Black confirming parents yes definitely a brother or half brother ..Think there is also a connection to the Buntain family somewhere along the line
Rosie
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I believe I've found the right John Black. He was killed when he fell from the top of a steam boiler in the sugar refinery.
Thanks, Sheena ... will add the nature of the accident to my Fatalities page.
www.mawer.clara.net/fatalities.html
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Thanks again everyone. Will follow up on the Buntains. Re the comment that it would be unusual to call a child after an aunt. Whilst there is a Scottish naming pattern, this family were Irish so perhaps didn't follow that practice. Also I have an example in my direct family where my grandmother is called for an aunt. It indicates special respect for that person. Another thought might be that it was intended that the child was going to live with the McIntyres so was given their name as a middle name with that in mind.
These little issues keep us coming back for more, don't they.
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James Buntain was a pansman (the skilled one in the sugarhouse) living in Ingleston St 1889-1902 (my database), so probably worked at the same sugarhouse in which John Black had died.
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Thanks again. I've just downloaded the census for Buntain. I think I won't do anything more about them. I tried to send an attachment but couldn't.