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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: ali50 on Saturday 28 October 17 20:11 BST (UK)
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First time of posting here. This site was recommended to me by someone that thought that you all may be able to help me. My Grandfather was shot to the face on the 18/04/18. I have been able to get his medical records for the incident, but I am unable to find out where it occurred. Would anyone here be able to point me in the right direction please. His details are as follows.....
Robert Williams
wounded 18 / 04/ 1918
Cheshire Regiment 9Th Battalion
NZ Contingent
Reg . number 66190
Gilles number 263
Plus also, could anyone shed some light as to what a Gilles number is please?
Thank you in advance for any help given.
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Welcome to Rootschat. :)
Gilles number might be a reference to Dr. Harold Gillies, a pioneering surgeon in plastic surgery who treated injured men in WW1.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Gillies
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The website Long, Long, Trail might prove useful?
The page for the Cheshire Regiment (http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cheshire-regiment/) has this to say:
9th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Chester on 13 September 1914 as part of K2 and came under orders of 58th Brigade, 19th (Western) Division. Moved to Salisbury Plain and by December 1914 was in billets in Basingstoke. Returned to Salisbury Plain in March 1915.
19 July 1915 : landed at Boulogne. 7 February 1918 : transferred to 56th Brigade in same Division.
Follow the links to the 19th (Western) Division:
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/19th-western-division/
where we find:
1918
The Battle of St Quentin+
The Battle of Bapaume+
The battles marked + are phases of the First Battles of the Somme 1918
The Battle of Messines++
The Battle of Bailleul++
The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge++
The battles marked ++ are phases of the Battles of the Lys 1918
The Battle of the Aisne
The Battle of the Selle^^
The Battle of the Sambre^^ and the passage of the Grand Honelle
The battles marked ^^ are phases of the Final Advance in Picardy
The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge (above) took place 17th-19th April 1918.
Possibly the linked Battle of Béthune on 18th April?
See also: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-battles-of-the-lys-1918/
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Thank you for the welcome, Nanny Jan. The reference to the doctor number could be spot on, as my Grandfather went through numerous operations. Although the majority of them were performed by a Major Pickerill, but there is nothing to say that Dr Gilles never treated him first. @ Kgarrad, I have looked at that site before and numerous others, but none of them seem to pinpoit any battles going on the 18/04/18 though.
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He may not have been injured in a battle, he could have been hit by a sniper.
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That's a possibility I had not thought of Groom!! My Grandfather steadfastly refused to even talk of the war, let alone what happened to him. Here are the pics I have managed to unearth, or my cousin did to be exact.
(https://scontent.flhr3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22894191_1549599725101100_5164084198421261905_n.jpg?oh=ae8b7562eef91e8bf338cf0e8fee1977&oe=5A74653F)
(https://scontent.flhr3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22852183_1549599698434436_4209346195100475813_n.jpg?oh=27570eb82a9a6addb08ea77408f13068&oe=5A745210)
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Considering that was almost 100 years ago, they did a good job didn't they?
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@ Kgarrad, I have looked at that site before and numerous others, but none of them seem to pinpoit any battles going on the 18/04/18 though.
See the end of my post! ;D
The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge (above) took place 17th-19th April 1918.
His battalion was in the right Division and Brigade to be involved.
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Considering that was almost 100 years ago, they did a good job didn't they?
An exceptional job. He was one of the Guinea pigs I believe.
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@ Kgarrad, I have looked at that site before and numerous others, but none of them seem to pinpoit any battles going on the 18/04/18 though.
See the end of my post! ;D
The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge (above) took place 17th-19th April 1918.
His battalion was in the right Division and Brigade to be involved.
Ah, sorry. I overlooked that. Will have a closer look now, Ta.
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If the information you have suggests he was in the field with his battalion when wounded then you might like to download the war diary for £3.50 at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353047
The battalion had moved early on the 10th April into billets near Nieppe when the enemy was reported to have attacked troops in front of them in the area of Ploegsteert Wood. They were ordered into positions to give support and by about 2 pm were in a line NE of Nieppe. Unfortunately the enemy pressed home his attack and towards evening the line had to be withdrawn to conform with neighbouring units.
MaxD
PS I think the Guinea Pigs were the WW2 patients of Sir Archibald McIndoe at East Grinstead.
PPS. People were constantly under fire, it didn't have to have a named battle!!
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@ Kgarrad, I have looked at that site before and numerous others, but none of them seem to pinpoit any battles going on the 18/04/18 though.
See the end of my post! ;D
The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge (above) took place 17th-19th April 1918.
His battalion was in the right Division and Brigade to be involved.
Forgive my ignorance, how do we establish which battalions are in which Division and Brigades. Please be patient with me, I'm slow at this game. ha.
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If the information you have suggests he was in the field with his battalion when wounded then you might like to download the war diary for £3.50 at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353047
The battalion had moved early on the 10th April into billets near Nieppe when the enemy was reported to have attacked troops in front of them in the area of Ploegsteert Wood. They were ordered into positions to give support and by about 2 pm were in a line NE of Nieppe. Unfortunately the enemy pressed home his attack and towards evening the line had to be withdrawn to conform with neighbouring units.
MaxD
PS I think the Guinea Pigs were the WW2 patients of Sir Archibald McIndoe at East Grinstead.
PPS. People were constantly under fire, it didn't have to have a named battle!!
The War diary sounds like a plan. See, my ignorance interfering again, always thought the Guinea pigs were WW1. This fact makes my Grandfathers surgeon all the more remarkable. Major Pickerill was a dentist, so I'm led to believe.
(https://scontent.flhr3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22851800_1549599755101097_3689152786081699784_n.jpg?oh=8332f85065117b8d93acc00a244dab86&oe=5AA790AD)
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@ Kgarrad, I have looked at that site before and numerous others, but none of them seem to pinpoit any battles going on the 18/04/18 though.
See the end of my post! ;D
The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge (above) took place 17th-19th April 1918.
His battalion was in the right Division and Brigade to be involved.
Forgive my ignorance, how do we establish which battalions are in which Division and Brigades. Please be patient with me, I'm slow at this game. ha.
It's in my first post! ;)
9th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Chester on 13 September 1914 as part of K2 and came under orders of 58th Brigade, 19th (Western) Division. Moved to Salisbury Plain and by December 1914 was in billets in Basingstoke. Returned to Salisbury Plain in March 1915.
19 July 1915 : landed at Boulogne. 7 February 1918 : transferred to 56th Brigade in same Division.
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K Garrad gave you the links to the Long Long Trail in an earlier post. As he advises, start with the regiment (Cheshires in this case), that will tell you the brigade and division. Works very well for the infantry and cavalry, harder for many other regiments and corps.
MaxD
Just seen the op report, forgive me I mis-read the date of wounding and wonder now whether he was in the field at the time, wounding, evacuation from Flanders and admittance the same day to a hospital in Sidcup needs further thought!
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@ Kgarrad, I have looked at that site before and numerous others, but none of them seem to pinpoit any battles going on the 18/04/18 though.
See the end of my post! ;D
The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge (above) took place 17th-19th April 1918.
His battalion was in the right Division and Brigade to be involved.
Forgive my ignorance, how do we establish which battalions are in which Division and Brigades. Please be patient with me, I'm slow at this game. ha.
It's in my first post! ;)
9th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Chester on 13 September 1914 as part of K2 and came under orders of 58th Brigade, 19th (Western) Division. Moved to Salisbury Plain and by December 1914 was in billets in Basingstoke. Returned to Salisbury Plain in March 1915.
19 July 1915 : landed at Boulogne. 7 February 1918 : transferred to 56th Brigade in same Division.
Thank you. I have just purchased the War diary, and it appeares that the Cheshire's were indeed in Kemmel and were relieved by the French on the evening of the 18th, which is the day of the injury. So this could very well be the site, that he got injured. Just re-read your post. I was unaware the the 9th was referring to the 9th Cheshires. Ignorance again. ha .
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K Garrad gave you the links to the Long Long Trail in an earlier post. As he advises, start with the regiment (Cheshires in this case), that will tell you the brigade and division. Works very well for the infantry and cavalry, harder for many other regiments and corps.
MaxD
Just seen the op report, forgive me I mis-read the date of wounding and wonder now whether he was in the field at the time, wounding, evacuation from Flanders and admittance the same day to a hospital in Sidcup needs further thought!
That is a thought, not really noticed that before. It didn't register with me that the hospital would be in London?. I purchased the Diary and his regiment was in Kemmel on the 18th.
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Would that be possible to be wounded and evacuated home the same day? Did they move that quickly?
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Would that be possible to be wounded and evacuated home the same day? Did they move that quickly?
Groom - that was what gave me pause.
Obviously there would be exceptions but to progress through some or all of the Aid Post - Field Ambulance - Casualty Clearing Station - hospital in France - UK casevac chain all in one day just doesn't seem right. The battalion was in the line on 18 April 1918 under enemy artillery for part of the day. There is no record of casualties that day although the day before, 17th, 30 casualties were sustained from shelling and gas. In addition, a glance at the Assistant Director Medical Services diary for that period shows that the system was in a bit of chaos having taken shell fire on a number of units in the medical chain and lost a number of motor ambulances.
My tentative conclusion is simply that the record has the date of wounding wrong. Whatever, he certainly suffered terribly
His medal roll entry has a note "Infantry Base Depot" over in the remarks column.
I doubt that has any bearing. We don't have his record unfortunately to check it one way or another.
The Queen's Hospital Sidcup to give it its title at the time (now Queen Mary's Hospital) was established as a facial injuries hospital in 1917. Gillies records are apparently available http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=92&page=20
MaxD
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Would that be possible to be wounded and evacuated home the same day? Did they move that quickly?
Groom - that was what gave me pause.
Obviously there would be exceptions but to progress through some or all of the Aid Post - Field Ambulance - Casualty Clearing Station - hospital in France - UK casevac chain all in one day just doesn't seem right. The battalion was in the line on 18 April 1918 under enemy artillery for part of the day. There is no record of casualties that day although the day before, 17th, 30 casualties were sustained from shelling and gas. In addition, a glance at the Assistant Director Medical Services diary for that period shows that the system was in a bit of chaos having taken shell fire on a number of units in the medical chain and lost a number of motor ambulances.
My tentative conclusion is simply that the record has the date of wounding wrong. Whatever, he certainly suffered terribly
His medal roll entry has a note "Infantry Base Depot" over in the remarks column.
I doubt that has any bearing. We don't have his record unfortunately to check it one way or another.
The Queen's Hospital Sidcup to give it its title at the time (now Queen Mary's Hospital) was established as a facial injuries hospital in 1917. Gillies records are apparently available http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=92&page=20
MaxD
Wounding date could possibly be wrong. Studying the first pic, the date is 3/5/18. That is just 3 weeks after the incident, his wounds appear to have healed quite significantly more than 3 weeks would allow??
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Comparing the photographs and the operations report, the 3 May 1918 picture is before the first operation on the record at Queens on 8 May 1918?
Is there a doctor in the house who could say whether it was the practice to stabilise wounds, perhaps at another hospital, before the specialists treated him? This would imply a rather earlier wounding date.
MaxD