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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Neil_A on Sunday 29 October 17 07:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I'm doing some research into an 1850's North Wales Farmer family that could be part of my own roots.
Reviewing the census and looking through the pages of the local Baptism records the 3 eldest daughters all appear to produce illegitimate children - between them all 9 in total (and still counting).
A few children are listed through the decade and then all the daughters Margaret, Elizabeth and Jane bring to the church 5 of their latest for a baptism (20th April 1855). Its quite a strange page to stumble across, and I haven't seen anything like this before.
So anyone seen something similar before?
Any theories as to why? (there is one horrible one that I'm hoping isn't the case....)
I've seen one or two illegitimate children to one mother but not something that appears to be a regular occurrence in one family!
Neil
Illegitimate Child count (so far!):
Jane Williams (b. 1826) - William Lloyd, Robert, Anne, Jane
Margaret Williams (b. 1827) - Mary, Grace, Elizabeth
Elizabeth Williams (b. 1830) - Peter, Elias
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Mmmm..... interesting question.... and the farmer/father is not named Elias?
You might check out the birth months, could well be the fruits of "harvest home" or sheep shearing celebrations perhaps?
Often, in the case of illegitimacy a boy child would be named for his father: thus Peter Farraday Jones might be the child of Peter Farraday. (I have no idea why I thought up that name!! :P)
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My 2xgreat grandmother, Hannah Maria Coxhead, had 5 illegitimate children in and around Newbury BRK, between 1858 and 1872.
I thought that was pretty amazing.
She married in Dec 1872 and had three other children.
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I've read somewhere that illegitimacy didn't matter so much to the poorer classes - in Victorian times it was only really important when there was property to inherite and heirs needed. It was later on in the 20th century that's the "stigma" arouse in the working classes.
In my tree the one family (mining stock in the Black Country) Nearly every Family in that small area had at least one child born before marriage. If I look at the one line who would have been around the same time as yours:
Alice - 2 kids before marrying
Nancy - 2 kids
Samuel - 4 kids. This was the 1850s/1860s and the following generation also followed suit .
Lisa
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I have found that one ancestor had a daughter; the father being summoned and then paid 1s 6d every week for the child. (1849)
She then had six more illegitimate children 3 boys and 3 girls. Two boys and a girl died within 3 years of being born. (1850īs)
Last and not lest she had another daughter and married the father (?) when he was 73 years old shortly before he died. (1862) ::)
Eight children in all and five lived until they were over 60 years old.
Nothing surprises me any more when researching my ancestors. ;D
Muffin41
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I have an instance of 4 children being born to a single mother - 1819-1830. She finally married in 1831 and died in 1834 having produced two more children. Her husband, in his will dated 1845, acknowledges all 6 children as being his, and also makes provision for the children's sister who has raised them since 1834.
My theory is that the marriage could not take place earlier as the husband was obliged to care for his mother. Mother was buried 31 March 1831, and the marriage took place, by Licence, on 23 April 1831.
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I've encountered a similar thing - multiple daughters having illegitimate children in isolated locations.
Of course there could be a sinister reason behind it, but I think that's much less likely than sisters simply being similar in character. I suppose it's always worth searching newspapers etc for mentions of any male relatives living with them, for any articles which might shed light on their character.
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I have two illegitimate daughters born 11 months apart in the same London workhouse. Both have the same surname and apparently different mothers.
I don't know whether the two mothers are related in any way as I can't find them on the census.
They may be sisters. They may the same woman using a different first name.
Victorian "morality" is something of a sham, perhaps an ideal of how people should live. But judging by the level of illegitimacy in my family it bears little resemblance to the real world - at least for the poor.
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My great great grandmother Ann Davies apparently had 6 illegitimate children in Wallasey and her sister Phoebe had another two - one of whom had an illegitimate son of her own. I say "apparently" because despite the records all evidence points to Ann's last son - my great grandfather William Davies - was most likely the son of her eldest daughter, who brought him up along with her legitimate family.
If this is true that would make four generations of illegitimacy because my grandmother was born just before William's marriage to Annie Fellowes (herself seemingly illegitimate as no marriage found for her parents) though they registered her afterwards as a cover-up.
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My 3x great-grandmother had at least 5 illegitimate children between 1830 - 40 before she married my 3x great-grandfather (no evidence to suggest he was the father of any of them): they went on to have a further 4 children, the last of whom was a posthumous baby.
I don't think any the worse of her for this - he seems to have accepted the first 5, as the family bible (from about 1851) shows them all with his surname. (This caused me much confusion, as I researched this branch pre-internet days!)
And on another branch, great-great grandfather was 13 before his parents were married.
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Elvis Presley's grandmother (or maybe great-grandmother?) had a huge brood of illegitimate children with many fathers, she never did get married I think.
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Within my family I have 3 sisters producing 12 illegitimate children between them, mostly whilst they were living in a rural village. This was around the 1850's-1860's, but definitely nothing 'sinister' as their own father had died and their only brother was away in the army.
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In some parts of rural Scotland illegitimacy rates were very high during the 19th century. Rural Banffshire was one such area. Rates were higher among the agricultural communities (as opposed to the fishing communities, for example)- one suggestion is that it was to "prove" fertility and therefore ensure future farm workers . Professor T C Smout opines that illegitimacy often did run in families. Certainly in my own Banffshire ancestors I have discovered that my great grandfather,his mother, her father and his father were all illegitimate (with lots of others in researching the extended family). Looking at this area certainly nothing sinister - indeed you could go as far as to say that it was part of the way of life.
William
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One of my ancestors had four illegitimate children between 1783 and 1798. The first was baptised 1783 with no father's name on the baptism, but six months later she and the father signed a bastardy bond confirming parentage of the male child. Then in 1803 she had three more children baptised born in 1792, 1795 and 1798. The parish clerk entered the reputed father's name, the same name as for her son born in 1783.
What's somewhat more shocking is the fact the reputed father was actually the husband of her aunt :o, with whom she had lived since her parents had died when she was young (confirmed by a Chancery Case from 1785 when she and her brother had to take the executor's of their father's estate to court to gain their inheritance once both reached the age of 21 years). Her aunt only died in 1791 so was alive when the first child was born. All four children took their father's surname which caused problems researching until we came across the 1803 baptism on a transcript a few years back, which had been until then unreadable on the fiche. When you know its there, it can be seen but was very unclear.
For whatever reason, the parents never married, even though he was free to do so after 1791 and she, as far as I can see, never married anyone else.
I feel very sorry for the Aunt.
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I don't know how true it is, but I believe it was common for the prospective bride to be pregnant in the Birmingham area in Victorian times. Apparently to be sure she was fertile before the marriage took place.
Wonder how they could be sure that the groom was the father.......or perhaps it didn't matter.
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So anyone seen something similar before?
Any theories as to why? (there is one horrible one that I'm hoping isn't the case....)
I've seen one or two illegitimate children to one mother but not something that appears to be a regular occurrence in one family!
Illegitimate Child count (so far!):
Jane Williams (b. 1826) - William Lloyd, Robert, Anne, Jane
Margaret Williams (b. 1827) - Mary, Grace, Elizabeth
Elizabeth Williams (b. 1830) - Peter, Elias
Have you seen any marriages of those children & do they give a father's name?
Annie
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In some parts of rural Scotland illegitimacy rates were very high during the 19th century. Rural Banffshire was one such area. Rates were higher among the agricultural communities (as opposed to the fishing communities, for example)- one suggestion is that it was to "prove" fertility and therefore ensure future farm workers . Professor T C Smout opines that illegitimacy often did run in families. Certainly in my own Banffshire ancestors I have discovered that my great grandfather,his mother, her father and his father were all illegitimate (with lots of others in researching the extended family). Looking at this area certainly nothing sinister - indeed you could go as far as to say that it was part of the way of life.
William
I also have this in my family, next door in Morayshire. My gt gt grandmother had my gt grandmother before she married .Her sister had 6 children and never married. My Gt grandmother had 3 children before she married. Usually the children were raised either by their maternal grandparents or in 3 cases by their natural fathers family.
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My 2xgreat grandmother, Hannah Maria Coxhead, had 5 illegitimate children in and around Newbury BRK, between 1858 and 1872.
I thought that was pretty amazing.
She married in Dec 1872 and had three other children.
In my tree I have an Elizabeth Coxhead Woodley (d/o Mary Coxhead and James Woodley) from Chaddleworth near Newbury who had an illegitimate child in 1842. She married my great great grandfather's brother in 1847. Their eldest daughter Mary Louise had five illegitimate children before marrying and having a second brood. Second daughter Jane had two illegitimate children and again married and had further children. Youngest daughter Esther Elizabeth had one child before she married the probable father. This was 1870s / 1880s.
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My gggg gf Peter Jones, from a village in Cheshire just by the Welsh border, had 8 children. The baptisms of the later ones are interspersed with those of the daughters' illegitimate children. The census entries are confusing, showing what ought to be grandchildren as sons and daughters.
The village is tiny, and since it was bypassed, it is possible to stand in the middle of the road and see every house in it. There wasn't room for more than one Jones family!
So I'll never know the name of that ggg gf, but I bet everyone in the village at the time did!