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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: ThumbelinaPM on Monday 30 October 17 09:55 GMT (UK)
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My ancestors, James Christie bap. 09.08.1820 Perth and Jane Sherwood (unable as yet to find her birth though gather its 1815-16). they married 15.10.1841, St Paul’s Church, East Parish, Perth
I believe Jane died 09.10.1859 though I can't trace this source.
However I have found a second marriage for James to Helen Rae 24.01.1853 to Helen Rae, daug of David Rae (Tailor in London). So this was 6 years before his first wife Jane died (assuming that date of death is correct).
What might the circumstances have been for him to remarry? Would any divorce have been recorded?
Many thanks for any help or suggestions.
For info: James died 06.12.1862, Murray Royal Hospital, Perth age 42, Grocer, Wife shown as Helen Rae. Cause shown as paralysis for 4/5 years. What would that illness be called now as I understand this hospital was an asylum?
Jane Sherwood: Can't find her death or her birth (though have her sister Margaret bap. 10.08.1806 and brother George b.1825)
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Hello
Scotlands not my area but I had a go.
Assuming Jane Sherwoods mother's maiden name is Young then yes she did die 1859 at New Airdrie /Monkland age 43.(It's on Scotlands people website).
If they divorced before the 1890s in England and Wales it required an Act of Parliament and a lot of money.I'm not sure what the position would be in Scotland.
No sign of her birth either.
As for the cause of death ,prepare yourself for a shock.If it's an Asylum then his paralysis would have probably been General Paralysis of the Insane or Syphilis .
At the time it was untreatable and caused mental health problems.
Perhaps someone with better knowledge of the Scottish system can tell you more.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi ,
Did this couple move from Perth Perthshire to Lanarkshire before 1855 ?
They seem to be on the 1851 Census in Perth Perthshire.
Did they have the following children in Lanarkshire ?
Isabella Christie born 1855 New Monkland
James Christie born 1857 New Monkland
Have you found the any of the children on the 1861 Census ?
(Margaret b.1842 , Jane b. 1843 , John b. 1845 , Ann b. 1848 , Agnes b. 1850 , George b. 1852 , Isabella b. 1855 , James b. 1857).
ev
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Could this be Jane Sherwood's birth ?
Jean Robertson Shearwood , birth 22nd June 1815 , baptism 25th June 1815 Perth Perth , parents George Shearwood & Margaret Young.
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Thank you for your replies.
Ciderdrinker, I doubt they divorced from what you say.
Ev, you have found Jean/Jane;s birth! Thank you so much! We went to Hawick twice and didn't manage to find that on SP. I have it now - thank you.
So if James married Helen Rae in 1853 yet his first wife Jean/Jane didn't die (in Airdrie) until 1859, he was potentially leading a double life or is that too modern a phrase? Plus he had 2 daughters to his 2nd wife in 1854 and 1859 in Perth. Seems almost unbelievable.
Also he seems to have had various occupations too showing as a Painter in Airdrie Census 1861 with at least 2 boys working for him yet he was a Printer (or as it Painter) and Spirit Dealer on his marriage to Jane but a Merchant on his 2nd marriage record and a Grocer on his death. I feel like I have this wrong but the names all match up.
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I feel like I have this wrong but the names all match up.
Just wondering if you have the correct birth for James ?
Ann McIntosh Christie born 30th July 1848 , baptised 13th August 1848 Perth Perth , parents James Christie & Jane Sherwood.
James Christie born 24th April 1819 , baptised 25th April 1819 Perth Perth , parents John Christie & Ann McIntosh.
Is Ann McIntosh Christie(born 1848) on the 1851 Census ?
http://www.pkc.gov.uk/3887?Surname=christie&Forename=ann&BurialDate=&alt=True&SortField=ID&SortDirection=ASC&DetailID=30472
ev
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Think these are two different James Christies. James Christie who was married to Jane Sherwood is living at 54 Stirling Street, New Monkland in 1861 with a number of his children by Jane. According to FindMyPast he is a widower. In 1871 he appears to be living at 10 Gauldry Street Glasgow ( transcribed as James Christal) with son James from his marriage to Jane Sherwood ( age 15 born New Monkland) ' wife' Margaret Watson ( transcribed as Walson on Ancestry) and daughter Mary Ann from the second marriage ( born 1870 in Clyde reg district).
Can't immediately see the other James ( married to Helen) in 1861. Perhaps he was already in the Asylum. Looked for Helen also without success. They appear to have had a daughter called Jemima in 1859 in Perth who should be easy to find, but drawing a blank there too.
Isobel
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Jemima Christie married Daniel Wylie in Perth in 1879 (reg 387/84). In 1881 Jemima C Wylie is listed at North Inch, Perth along with husband Daniel ( a Pianoforte Dealer and Music Seller) and a baby daughter. Also listed is Jemima's mother Helen Roy age 49, born Auchtermuchty ( a widow according to FindMyPast). Using her age and place of birth I have now located her in 1871 as Helen Roy wife of John Roy, living at 42 George Street, Perth. Jemima is listed as Jamesina Roy, age 11 born Perth. Helen Rae or Christie married John Roy in Partick, Glasgow in 1879 (reg 646/2 47). Still can't find them in 1861. There is a James Burn Christie listed in Murray a Royal hospital but age is slightly out (39) and occupation is Clerk in Bank. Place of birth is Dundee.
Isobel
Added James B Christie born Dundee is still in Murray Royal in 1891. So not him
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Margaret Watson who appears as the wife of James Christie in 1871 appears to have been the widow of Archibald Bennett. Three of their children are listed as stepchildren of James Christie in 1871. No sign of an actual marriage between James and Margaret. They look to have emigrated to Canada between 1871 and 1881 where they appear in Toronto. James is a Printer, the same occupation he had in Scotland. He appears to have died in Toronto in 1884. Daughter Mary, who was born in Glasgow in 1870 married James Brydson in 1895 in Toronto and they can be tracked up until the 1911 Canadian census. Mother Margaret is with them in 1901.
Isobel
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Hi Isobel ,
That seems to make sense-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XCQS-C17?i=430&cc=1307826
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1HS-H2C?i=45&cc=1627831
ev
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1841 Census transcription FreeCEN -
Skinnergate , Perth , Perth.
John Christie 45 cotton hand loom weaver b. Perth
Ann Christie 40 b. Perth
James Christie 20 letterpress printer journeyman b. Perth
David Christie 15 letterpress printer apprentice b. Perth
Peter Christie 6 b. Perth
Isabella Christie 10 b. Perth
Alexr McIntosh 80 tailor journeyman b. outside Census County
ev
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Thank you both so much for all of this information - it has taken me a while to work through it.
The reason I thought I had the correct James Christie born 09.08.1920 in Perth to James Christie and Ann Rough, was that their child Agnes b. 02.02.1850 in Perth (who is my line) has the middle name Tough (probably should have been Rough)from her maternal grandmother Ann Rough. Later it became Tuff. My mother (living) remembers her father telling her Auntie Nan (Agnes) had a nickname of 'Tufty' too so I guess that must be correct.
So do I forget the McIntosh link or have I misunderstood? Sorry, I'm relatively new to this!
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ignore the Aunt Nan comment - that was another Agnes!
But this one, in my line, is my Great Great Grandmother - Agnes Tough Christie eg on her birth record in Perth, daug of James Christie, Printer and Jane Sherwood
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wish I could find this on SP:
James Christie who was married to Jane Sherwood is living at 54 Stirling Street, New Monkland in 1861 with a number of his children by Jane. According to FindMyPast he is a widower.
I can only find the other James Christie who shows as a widower and painter (or printer?) employing 2 boys etc - very difficult to read
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wish I could find this on SP:
James Christie who was married to Jane Sherwood is living at 54 Stirling Street, New Monkland in 1861 with a number of his children by Jane. According to FindMyPast he is a widower.
I can only find the other James Christie who shows as a widower and painter (or printer?) employing 2 boys etc - very difficult to read
Bit confused by this comment as the James Christie who was living at 54 Stirling Street IS the one who was a Printer employing one man and two boys. He was a widower, as Jane nee Sherwood had died in 1859, and he is listed with a number of his children. He did not marry Helen Rae and did not die in 1862. That was a completely different James Christie, who seems to be missing from the 1861 census ( together with his wife Helen and daughter Jemima born 1859.)
James ( previously married to Jane Sherwood) turns up in the 1871 census in Glasgow with a lady called Margaret Watson who is listed as his wife ( although they don't appear to have ever married). She was a widow ( of Archibald Bennett) and had a number of Bennett children. James and Margaret and some of their children ( both Christie and Bennett) went to Canada. James and Margaret both died in Canada.
I agree with ev that James is very probably the James Christie born to John Christie and Ann McIntosh in April 1819.
Isobel
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Not what you asked about, but this may be of interest.
GRO(S) ref. 1862; 651/1; 38
Jane Sherwood Christie dau. of James Christie, Printer, & Jane Robertson Sherwood (deceased), of 18 Wellwynd, Airdrie, married James McLellan Gray in Airdrie on 9 June 1862.
She d. 30 Jan 1880, Newarthill.
James McLellan Gray subsequently went to America and died in Kansas.
I only have my transcription of the marriage record with James Christie's occupation as Printer.
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Thank you so much for your responses. I understand more now I've seen that two page census in 1861 and that of 1871. However I’m not convinced on the McIntosh link.
Couldn’t this be possible:
James Christie and Ann Rough marry 01.07.1812 in Perth. They have James, Isabella, George, Richard, James - the latter being my line; I assume the first James dies.
‘My’ James marries Jane Sherwood, daug of George Shearwood (Shoemaker) and Margaret Young 15.10.1841 in Perth. James and Jane have Margaret, Jane, John, Ann, Agnes (my line), Isabella and James.
Agnes is born 02.02.1850 and her birth record shows Agnes Tough Christie, daug of James Christie , Printer, Perth and Jane Sherwood his spouse.
Otherwise wouldn’t she have been Agnes McIntosh Christie? Where else would the Tough/Rough have come from but the paternal grandmother’s maiden name though it was Agnes’s elder sister Ann who was named after the paternal grandmother.
I have the birth record of James Christie b. 18.07.1820, bap. 09.08.1820, son of James Christie (Gunmaker) and Ann Rough (who would become Tough) who are also named on the 1859 death cert of James.
Possible or am I still missing the obvious?
I know Agnes Tough Christie marries my ancestor Robert Eddie Thomson b. 02.04.1849 an they marry 05.12.1870 in Airdrie
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Rough and Tough are completely different surnames - unlikely that one would be mistakenly substituted for the other. Also why Agnes Rough Christie if the supposed grandmother is Ann Rough.
You have an Ann McIntosh who is potentially the grandmother of Ann McIntosh Christie with dates and places that fit. I am fairly certain that the James Christie married to Jane Sherwood was the son of John Christie and Ann McIntosh.
Isobel
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There is a marriage in 1857 in Blythswood, Glasgow between a George Sherwood and an Agnes Tough. George appears to have been a Free Church Minister and From 1851/1861 census was born in Perth between 1823/1826. The marriage certificate will confirm but I believe he may be the George Sherwood born in 1825 to George Sherwood and Margaret Young and therefore brother of Jane Sherwood. Not uncommon to call children for the partners of siblings.
Naming of the children of James Christie and Jane Sherwood follow traditional naming pattern almost exactly except second daughter appears to be named for her mother rather than her paternal grandmother-
Eldest daughter Margaret born 1842 ( maternal grandmother)
Second daughter Jane born 1843 ( mother)
Third daughter Ann McIntosh born 1848 ( paternal grandmother)
Eldest son John born 1845 (paternal grandfather)
Second son George Sherwood born 1852 (maternal grandfather)
Third son James born 1857 ( father)
Isobel
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Hi! I'm back again on the Christie trail after 3 years!
Now I believe that the James Christie who was a printer and went to Canada is NOT my James Christie. However I am still struggling to unpick it all; there are so many similarities eg going to Airdrie, New Monkland where my Grandfathers line ended up.
My James Christie is born 18 July 1820 (bap. 9 Aug 1820) in Perth. He is son of James Christie the Gunmaker and Ann Rough. I have their marriage as 15 Oct 1841 however, on Ancestry, the James Christie who went to Canada (born 24 Apr 1819 in Perth) also quotes that same marriage. How can I prove or disprove the marriage record as being linked to my line?
My Jane Sherwood I have as being born 22 June 1815 in Perth, daug of George Sherwood (Shoemaker) and Margaret Young however again, the Canada James Christie has these details for his Jane Sherwood.
Am I right in thinking my James b. 1820 is indeed the James I detailed previously as having died 6 Dec 1862 in Royal Murray Hospital in Perth?
I can't find James death as I incorrectly had 9 Oct 1859 but now I realise this is the wife of the Canada James C.
Apologies for coming back on this after all of this time.
Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.
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So 'my' James Christie b. 18 July 1820 probably did marry Helen Rae.
Yet on the marriage certificate of my 2 x Gt Grandmother, Agnes Tuff (Tough) Christie when she married Robert Thomson states her parents as James Christie and Jane Sherwood.
And there I am, full circle back!
Help please!
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I’ve had another look at this and I am still convinced that your James was the son of John Christie and Ann McIntosh ( not John Christie and Ann Rough). They called one of their daughters Ann McIntosh Christie which is fairly compelling. Your James Christie formed a relationship with Margaret Watson after the death of his wife in 1859 and they eventually went to Canada. It may be that the person on Ancestry who lists this James as being the son of John Christie and Ann Rough has made a mistake. The James Christie who died in 1862 who was married to Helen Rae is not yours.
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Jane Christie who married my relative James McLellan Gray in 1862 in Airdrie, was the dau. of James Christie, Printer & Jane Sherwood, and appears on the 1861 census for Airdrie with her widowed father and also a sister Agnes b ca 1850 in Perth. This looks like your Agnes.
Middle names were usually but not always family names. There are examples of middle names chosen to honour a midwife, a minister, the spouse of a sibling, etc., so while Tough may be a grandparent's name, it is not necessarily so.
Jane was born in Perth on 2 Nov 1843, and on her OPR baptism record her mother's maiden name is spelt Sherewood. On her marriage record her mother's name is Jane Robertson Sherwood.
Could this be Jane Sherwood's birth ?
Jean Robertson Shearwood , birth 22nd June 1815 , baptism 25th June 1815 Perth Perth , parents George Shearwood & Margaret Young.
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Agnes had the middle name Tough. This is not the same name as Rough so does not back up an assumption that her grandmother was called Ann Rough. Her sister was called Ann McIntosh Christie which does back up a possibility that her grandmother was called Ann McIntosh.If the James Christie who died in 1862 in Perth was married to Helen Rae then he is unlikely to be the same James Christie who is showing as a widower in Airdrie in 1861. The one in Airdrie is definitely the James who was married to Jane Sherwood.
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Helen Rae or Christie was in Kilmarnock in 1861 living with her widowed father David. Her two daughters Jemima (1) and Jessie (6) were with her, both born Perth ( Jemima is transcribed as Jamine and Helen as Ellen on Ancestry). Mother and daughters show as Rae or Christy on the census entry. Ellen is described as married and her occupation is Housekeeper. My guess is that her husband James was already in the Asylum in 1861. Meanwhile the other James ( the one that was the widower of Jane Sherwood) was in Airdrie with his children.
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I would add that my Mum's family (this line) has a history of always keeping the maiden name them throughout hence my Mum (now 82) is Jeanie Sherwood Thomson Brown. Her father told her of the additional important names to remember in her family being Tuff (Tough) and Eadie/Eddie.
We have Agnes Tough/Tuff Christie
We have Robert Eddie/Eadie Thomson and Peter/Patrick Buchanan Thomson etc etc
Absolutely no children mentions of Robertsons or McIntosh or indeed Rough.
I did come across that birth on for Jean Robertson Shearwood, daug of George S and Margaret Young and thought she was ours but without any other Robertsons, I'm unsure.
If the Canada James Christie family would agree my death for Agnes Tough Christie (7 April 1931 aged 81) then it all might click for me. As it is, they have her death as 1881 i.e. aged 31.
Thank you all for helping me figure this out. I'm wishing I hadn't deleted all of those people now!
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The trees on Ancestry actually say Agnes Tough Christie died AFTER 1881. The trees actually include census entries for her in 1891 and 1901.
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I see! Sorry I hadn't spotted that.
So it looks as though I need to get rid of all of my James Christie the gunmaker and Ann Rough data ;D
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Okay I think I have found you proof that the James who died in 1862 is not yours. In 1851 there is a James Christie age 30 in Kirkgate Perth who is a Grocer. He has a servant called Hellin Rae born around 1832 in Auchtermuchty. This matches with Helen Rae who married James Christie and subsequently John Roy. She also was born in Auchtermuchty in 1832. In 1851 your James was living with his wife and family. You know from his death certificate that the James who died in 1862 was the son of James Christie and Ann Rough so they are not the parents of your James who are almost certainly John Christie and Ann McIntosh. Your James Christie went to Canada.
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Thank you so much, that is wonderful news!! I wanted them to be our line and now I know.
I need to go and add everyone back in now, thanks ever so much Isobel and Isabel.
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On 19 Feb 1863 James Christie, Letterpress Printer (Master) , widower age 43, Airdrie, married Margaret Geddes ms McDonald, Widow aged 29, Airdrie.
His parents were John Christie, Weaver and Ann Christie ms McIntosh (deceased).
[Statutory registers Marriages 644/1 54]
The Greenock Advertiser of Oct 15th 1863 carried an announcement of Margaret's death on the 10th Oct. in Airdrie.
James Christie died 15 May 1884 in Toronto, Canada and is listed as a Printer on the death record. No mention of any relatives.
As isobelw mentioned earlier, the 1871 census shows James with a wife called Margaret Watson. there doesn't seem to be a record of that marriage.
If you have access to the British Newspaper Library, a search for "James Christie" Printer finds several mentions of him including an obituary.
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Great find IsabelH
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Thanks again. Isobel, I do have access to BNA (until 14th Sept anyway!) but can't find the obituary. Do you know which paper it is in?
Also another question on my James Christie, printer, (b.24 Apr 1819, Perth) and Jane Robertson Sherwood (b. 22 June 1815).
I know they married on 15 Oct 1841 but was it in East Church Parish, Perth or St Paul's Parish, Perth?
I'm hoping to visit in October so would like to visit some of these places (COVID permitting).
Anyone know the venue? I can't find it online.
Many t hanks in advance ;D
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Obituary James Christie Printer:
Perthshire Constitutional & Journal 09 June 1884
If you can't find it PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send you it.
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Also another question on my James Christie, printer, (b.24 Apr 1819, Perth) and Jane Robertson Sherwood (b. 22 June 1815).
I know they married on 15 Oct 1841 but was it in East Church Parish, Perth or St Paul's Parish, Perth
According to the index at Scotland's People they were married in the parish of Perth, which remained a single parish for secular purposes. Have you looked at the original document which is available to view at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk?
In 1841 there were six Church of Scotland congregations in Perth; East Church (Rev James Esdaile), Old or Middle Church (Rev George Lewis), West Church (Rev Andrew Gray), St Paul's (Rev John Findlay), St Stephen's (Gaelic - Rev John Ferguson) and St Leonard's (Rev John Milne). https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/viewer/nsa-vol10-Parish_record_for_Perth_in_the_county_of_Perth_in_volume_10_of_account_2/ pages 110 onwards.
If the original marriage record says by whom the marriage was performed, it would be possible to say that they were married by the minister of a particular congregation. However the overwhelming probability is that the wedding ceremony did not take place in any church building. It was customary for weddings to be held in the home of the bride's parents or, if she had no parents or was married away from their home, in the manse. Church weddings did not become the norm until the late 19th or ealy 20th century. See https://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/
The East, Old or Middle, and West Churches were all parts of the original parish kirk of St John's. St Paul's, High Street/South Methven Street, datse from 1807. St Leonard's, in King Street, was built in 1834-1835 (not to be confused with St Leonards-in-the-Fields which dates from 1882-1885).
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Hello again Forfarian ;D
I have just bought some credits in SP but as usual, I get nothing from the search results despite using name variants and very little info in order to maximise results.
I must have seen some certificates otherwise I wouldn't have the Church detail I have though
Thanks for the info on the Churches in Perth. Really interesting!
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Found it! I wasn't looking in the Church registers previously!
So they did marry in St Paul's Church in the East Parish of Perth
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Interesting that Jean Robertson Sherwood was baptised 25 June 1815 by Rev William Aird Thomson of the Middle Church Parish, Perth. He has some significance in religious terms of the time.
Then was married in St Paul's Church, East Parish, Perth by Elder Rev. David Wilson.
I will need to research the significance of these two Churches and their teachings.
Thank you so much for the information regarding Perth - so very interesting and lot to learn!
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On the same line, I have Jean Robertson Sherwood,s father - George Sherwood (b. 1776 Dundee - I haven't found record as yet) and her mother, Margaret Young (b. 9 Jul 1781 in Perth) - they married 8 Dec 1803 Perth though I haven't yet found the record to confirm the location.
On Ancestry, there are indications that George's father was James Sherwood of St Cuthbert's in Edinburgh, who married Mary Yool (Yuill) of Dundee and they married in Kinnoull, Perth on 6 Nov 1772. Yet their first 6 children were born in Dundee and last two in Perth. I wonder why that might be.
Also, on SP, there is a James Sherwood of St Cuthbert's, Edinburgh who married Helen Anderson 16 April 1749 and I'm worried I have the wrong father of George. I notice the names of their children aren't all very familiar (eg Amelia, Benjamin, Alexander) but I guess that's possible.
Finally, is there any way to find out whether in Perth James Christie and Jean Robertson Sherwood lived or were from or do I assume Perth Town?
Apologies for all of the questions!
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I will need to research the significance of these two Churches and their teachings.
They both belonged to the Church of Scotland, which is a presbyterian denomination.
With the growth of towns and cities, the congregations outgrew the capacity of the original parish churches. Additional churches, referred to as chapels of ease, were built to accommodate the overflow. St Paul's was one such kirk. So I don't think that there is likely to have been any significance or difference in teaching between it and the Middle Kirk.
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Thanks Forfarian ;D