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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey => England => Surrey Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Cockneyrebel on Tuesday 31 October 17 13:06 GMT (UK)
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The above was the son of William Edward Vine and Elizabeth Earle, they moved from Sussex to Croydon by 1891 and 1901 censuses. Elizabeth passed away in 1891 and William remarried Clara Jane Taylor in 1892; the latter was the subject of my search on here regarding Clarissa Jane or Marie L. C. Fichat-Boyes, a while ago.
After 1901 Bertie disappears but there is one of the same name living in Eastbourne in 1911; however according to various trees on Ancestry this is a different one, albeit some say he passed in 1917 in WW1 which is the wrong one in any case?
Do you think he returned to Sussex married and settled there?
Cr
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Bertie James Vine whose birth was registered March qtr 1886 Eastbourne has mothers maiden name Snell - Volume 02B Page 87
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Bertie James Vine whose birth was registered March qtr 1886 Eastbourne has mothers maiden name Snell - Volume 02B Page 87
Marriages Sep qtr 1882
Snell Annie Eliza
Vine Charles
Eastbourne 2b 106
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There is a Bertie Richard Vine birth reg Sep qtr 1885 Eastbourne, mmn Baulcomb.
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Vine births with mmn Earl are
Harry Earl Vine 1872
George William Vine 1879
Lizzie Louise Vine 1882
Lily Beatrice 1885
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Vine births with mmn Earl are
Harry Earl Vine 1872
George William Vine 1879
Lizzie Louise Vine 1882
Lily Beatrice 1885
"Bertie" is listed as a 5 yr old daughter in the 1891 census (though age is in the male column).
Could Bertie in fact be a girl, perhaps a nickname for Lily Beatrice?
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Well spotted - it has got to be her ;D
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Hmmm... perhaps not after all! Lily Beatrice Vine died aged 0 in Eastbourne, Dec qtr 1885.
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I did not look at deaths ::)
In 1901 there are two Bertie's in Eastbourne of the right age, one with Charles & Annie, the other with Emma Vine (nee Baulcomb) so they account for the two birth registrations.
Williams son is listed as Bertram in 1901 ::)
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At 1901 Bertie or Bertram was recorded as a Grocers Assistant in Croydon aged 15 born Eastbourne.
Cr
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Bertie James Vine whose birth was registered March qtr 1886 Eastbourne has mothers maiden name Snell - Volume 02B Page 87
This one can be found with wife Ellen (Hall) on the last census
This is his death
Deaths Sep qtr 1971
VINE Bertie James
Birth 31Dec 1885
Eastbourne 5h 6
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Croydon school admission registers name him as Bertram C Vine (father William Edward) - date of birth 11 March 1898,
also listed as Bertram Chas Vine with dob 7 Sep 1895 (father William Edward)
both give address as 4 Sussex Road
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There is a Bertie Richard Vine birth reg Sep qtr 1885 Eastbourne, mmn Baulcomb.
Deaths Sep 1908
VINE Bertie Richard age 23
Eastbourne 2b 36
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Who is this Bertram :-\
Marriages Mar 1948
SCHWARZ Ruth B
Vine Bertram
Croydon 5g 149
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Well he's still a mystery, it's like he's been drafted into the family in 1891 and 1901 and then disappears?
I'm aware of the other Bertie James 1886-1971 as he is also a relation/ancestor of mine.
Cr
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There is this birth
Sep 1885 Eastbourne 2b 89
Chambers, Charles Bertram
mother Speede
Can he be found in 1891, 1901?
He is around later
Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
Chambers, Bertram Charles
born Eastbourne, Sussex
5 September 1885
Date - 1902
I think he is in the free index to 1939, living in Croydon C. B.
Charles B Chambers, born 1885
Looks as though he will be married to Mabel
5 Sep did not work for birth date, but 7 Sep did (is that the date Rosie has for Bertie Vine from one of the school records?)
Marriage possibility
Dec 1918 Croydon 2a 672
Chambers, Bertram C. - spouse Hebberd
Hebberd, Mabel - spouse Chambers
at Croydon, St Peter
For this to be the Bertie in question, he would have had to have been adopted?
John
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He certainly is worth investigating John ;D
Bertram Charles Chambers gives his father as Charles Chambers (decd) occ Valet when he marries in 1918.
Here is Bertram in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7K5-82R
Rosie
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Seems like a red herring to me unless there is a way of finding out about adoption that is free?
Cr
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Adoption at that time was informal so I doubt you would find any proof of it.
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Well I guess the only way to find out will be if a family member comes forward with that answer.
Thank you for all your help anyway.
Cr
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Being inquisitive I would be splurging £6 on that birth certificate of Bertram Chambers so I could investigate him further. Probably because he does fit with approx age and place of birth and then appears in Croydon, also census details for him are only available when Bertie Vine's are not. I can't see a marriage for his supposed parents from his birth details (GRO index)
The Vine's did lose a couple of children as infants maybe they sought some kind of replacement. :-\
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Well Rosie, I'm a pensioner and am not about to spend £6 on someone who is not likely to be a blood relation.
Cr
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I am also a pensioner ;D
I was only saying that is what I would do but only after trying to eliminate them by other resources. I have tried to eliminate him but he seems to pop up when Bertram/Bertie Vine is absent. An online tree has a census reference for Bertram Chambers in 1901 but they have the wrong Bertram as that one was born in Brighton RD a few years earlier.
It all comes down to how desperate we are to find out these things and if it needs us to eliminate possibilities it is what we may have to do. I will keep looking and let you know if I come up with anything.
Rosie :)
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Thank you Rosie for your help and kindness. If I was a 'rich' pensioner I'd send off for a cert but otherwise I can't afford to especially as my tree is already rather large numbering 20, 000 plus people.
Cr
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Sadly we all have to make decisions as to what we get to research our trees on the cheap. Thankfully a lot of marriages are now available online though I probably had bought most of those that I needed many years ago.
Hopefully something will tie Bertie in to the family in the future ;D
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Yes , like you earlier before I became a pensioner, I bought a lot of family certificates. It's pleasing that the GRO have got b and d's now showing mother's name and age of deceased. Pity they didn't do marriages as well. However, perhaps in the future...
DNA testing seems to be all the rage now and had mine done last year but so far has proved that I have 1 cousin whom I already knew about! Seems that most DNA testers are from the USA and haven't got their trees far enough back to find the 'old country' ancestors?
Cr