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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: CheshireSteve on Wednesday 01 November 17 13:14 GMT (UK)

Title: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Wednesday 01 November 17 13:14 GMT (UK)
Researching my ancestors in Manchester was stunned to discover the reason they were missing in the 1871 census is they had emigrated to Hawaii c1865, returning in the 1870s. George Roberts b1838 Hulme, Manchester who was a fitter/engineer (probably beer related) re-appears in the 1881 census with his wife Frances and four of his children listed as being born on Sandwich Island (1865 to 1872/3), 1891 census says Sandwich Islands Hondala, later census info confirming this as Hawaii.

My mind boggles as to why and how the family got from Manchester to Hawaii in 1864/5 - the trans continental railroad wasn't completed until 1869. I am curious to discover more about this migration and why they came back too. So far I have drawn a blank, there doesn't seem to be any Hawaii census info before 1900, and as I usually search UK records I am really struggling to understand what records are available for Hawaii.

George is later described as a Beer Retailer as well as an engineer, and his father Elias was a publican and ran the Wellington Hotel in Hulme. So were they there to build a brewery or distillery?

The children born in Hawaii were George Roberts 1865, Thomas (Tom) 1869, Frederick (Fred) 1871 and Alice Maude Eliza 1873. However other members of the Roberts family may have gone out there and stayed, and I am not sure how I would tell. Any insights into this curious part of my family history would be welcomed.

Steve



Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 01 November 17 13:34 GMT (UK)
Quote
Hondala

Honolulu
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 01 November 17 13:38 GMT (UK)
That's really fascinating.

I wonder if they appear on a US census in 1870?  Found this passage entry.

George Roberts 24
Liverpool to Honalulu
Ship name Mercia
date 14 Feb 1865

think it says wife and 2 children and his occupation a fitter - could be your George

Did he have 2 young children by then age 4 and 11 months?
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Wednesday 01 November 17 14:07 GMT (UK)
Wow, Yes - I think he did have 2 children. John Roberts was born 1861, and Thomas christened 4th September 1864. So they sailed direct from LIverpool to Honalulu, presumably via Cape Horn, and with a young child and babe in arms. Thats one heck of a long journey.

So that answers the question about the trans-continental railroad - they sailed all the way.

Any other Roberts on that ship, or other passengers who's trade I might be able to look up?

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 01 November 17 14:20 GMT (UK)
Yes there are other passengers with trades "smith" "fitter" "boiler maker" also other young children and a couple in their 60's.   

At the top it says "the British Barque (guess that's type of vessel) "Mercia"

Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 01 November 17 14:23 GMT (UK)
What goes out must come back so there must be a record of them returning if they are back in England in 1881. 
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Wednesday 01 November 17 14:32 GMT (UK)
Yes there are other passengers with trades "smith" "fitter" "boiler maker" also other young children and a couple in their 60's.   

At the top it says "the British Barque (guess that's type of vessel) "Mercia"

Yes, thought it might be a Barque for that sort of trip, but can't find details of a Mercia in 1865. Incidentally the babe in arms, Thomas, didn't survive very long as they came back with a child Thomas born in 1869. John however did survive the trip, and was married in Manchester in 1884.

The trades do suggest some sort of engineering enterprise. I wonder if the people in their 60s were the bosses. I haven't found any suggestion that it was military so I think strictly commercial.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Wednesday 01 November 17 15:02 GMT (UK)
Could take me a while, but I have found the Pacific Commercial advertiser is available on-line, and the March 18th 1865 edition is advertising goods for sale ex Mercia. This will potentially give fascinating insights to life of Brits in Hawaii back in 1865. There is a Honolulu Distillery Company as there is a notice that on 26 July 1865 the partnership of Geo Galbraith, J Vernon and Thos Warren is changed to just Thos Warren. It is operational as they list the spirits as being sold by Janion, Green & Co.

Steve

Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Wednesday 01 November 17 15:11 GMT (UK)
Thos W Warren appears again. Advertising the Oahu Brewery is now in full production of Lager Beer, dated 30 Sept 1865. Wish I knew how to upload an image.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Wednesday 01 November 17 16:57 GMT (UK)
There was a George Roberts auctioning his entire house contents and then his house on March 20th 1873. The Barque Windermere arrived from Liverpool in July, so maybe he came back on that, though I have been unable to find a sailing date or destination. The list of the house contents is fascinating, and you also see the vital link the barques provided, and while the papers could advertise what was expected they didn't know with any certainty when the barque would arrive. Once it arrived the adverts changed to 'just arrived' for example ex-Windermere July 1873 :

100 tons Liverpool salt
25 Barrells India Pale Ale (McEwans)
Cases India Pale Ale (ditto)
Cases XXX stout (ditto)
10 Quarter Casks Martells fine brandy
10 Quarter Casks Henessey fine brandy
80 Cases of Hennesey one, two and three star brandy
118 cases of Finest Scotch Whisky
etc etc for the drink, it even included Australian wine

also sewing machines, small steam engine, silk handkerchiefs, blotting paper and stationery, blacksmiths coal, cloth of all descriptions, saddles, spurs, horse blankets, galvanised iron, water filters .. it is incredible to see the details of this British outpost on the other side of the world - I had no idea we even had a footprint there.

The only other mention I have found of George Roberts is that he played a key role in rescuing the Steamer Kilauea, which was the steamer that did the inter-island service. He was presented a gold chronometer watch by the government for "services rendered to the steamer Kilauea on the evening of April 12th, 1871." and at the time he was Chief Engineer of the steamer. Of course there may have been another George Roberts, but as an engineer it wouldn't be a big jump to manage a steamship engine.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 01 November 17 18:06 GMT (UK)
From the PCA, 4 January 1873:
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 07:59 GMT (UK)
Thanks for posting that. Another bit of the jigsaw.

I may be mistaken in that his trade of engineer/fitter in the beer trade appears in census entries after he returned home, before then he might have been an engine fitter. Although his father was a publican it could be that he went out as an engineer direct to the steamship.

I  notice that the Kilauea was mentioned in Mark Twain's notebooks - it was built in Boston and transferred to the "Sandwich Islands" in 1860 to provide the inter-island ferry service. A combination of mechanical failures, accidents, and the financial difficulties of its various owners made for an intermittent service. It was incapacitated for a major part of Mark Twain's visit because in Jan 1866 it had run aground on a reef and didn't go back into service until 4th June after salvage, repair and sale. It did carry Mark Twain back to Honolulu on 16th June at the end of his tour of the islands.

It must have been quite a shock for George Roberts to come home to Manchester (and for his children who had been born in Hawaii), but I have just realised his father, Elias Roberts, died in Q2 1873. That could explain why he sold up and returned home.

I am still surprised to find that we had a British community in Hawaii operating just the same as in other colonies around the world, with regular large sailing vessels transferring good and passengers from Liverpool. I am now wondering whether other members of the Roberts family came out to join him there for a holiday or for their health. George's uncle Noah Roberts b1817, a grocer, and his wife Alice have also proved elusive at the time of the 1871 census. I now know that they didn't go out with him, but maybe they went out later. Still amazed you could go to Liverpool and buy a ticket to Hawaii in the 1860s on what was effectively a regular service to the other side of the world.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 02 November 17 08:31 GMT (UK)
Elias was a fairly wealthy man by the standards of the time. I see that he was a proprietor of houses in the 1851 census.
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 09:12 GMT (UK)
Yes, he ran the Wellington Hotel, 202 Stretford Rd, Hulme - maybe he had other financial interests. 1871 census he was in Sale, Cheshire.

Sadly I am descended from his brother Noah, the grocer !

I have just found the entry for the arrival of the Mercia in Honolulu on 13 Feb 1865. The journey from Liverpool took 147 days ! One heck of a journey for a young family. I still don't know which way round the world the ship went, but after Hawaii its next destination was Hong Kong.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 09:21 GMT (UK)
Elias was a fairly wealthy man by the standards of the time. I see that he was a proprietor of houses in the 1851 census.

Just realised that this means his wife Ann was still around, I have rather a gap in my records for her and her other sons John b1841 and Elias b1842. Maybe they had a family home in Cheshire and I have missed them that way. Ann was 10 years older than Elias according to the 1851 census.
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 02 November 17 10:33 GMT (UK)
I wondered if this was Ann's death in Beaumaris in 1874 ("late of Sale").

There are newspaper mentions of George Roberts of the Hermitage, Beaumaris:

Owner of the steam yacht Wyvern, flagship at the Menai Bridge Regatta in August 1876
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4514952/4514959/68/menai%20regatta (column 1)

Moving residence and auctioning house contents in May 1877 http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4515303/4515311/70/  (final column)
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 11:55 GMT (UK)
I don't know how the devil you spotted those, but the combination of a widow Ann Roberts from Sale, and George auctioning off the house, plus a steam yacht too - which would obviously be very attractive to a man who was chief engineer on a steamer in Hawaii and returned home sometime late in 1873 after his father had died leaving his mother a large inheritance. If its not my relative then its a lot of coincidences.

The steam yacht Wyvern must have been the one built in 1869 by Thomas Brassey of Birkenhead. I'll have to try and find some history of her as he may well have kept her.

Sounds like there certainly was a few bob in that part of the family.

Is there anything you can tell me about the address he was at in later censuses. That was 159 Ashton New Rd, Manchester. When I put it in Google maps I got a chip shop and the Manchester City football stadium. He variously described himself as a Beerhouse Keeper (1881), engineer (1884), fitter and beer retailer (1891), publican (1895), beer retailer (1901) all at the same address. If he was a publican then you think the address would be a pub - but maybe he had a works too.

Thanks, Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 02 November 17 12:20 GMT (UK)
Quote
Is there anything you can tell me about the address he was at in later censuses. That was 159 Ashton New Rd, Manchester.

I checked a few directories and he is listed simply as "beer retailer".

http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/cdm/landingpage/collection/p16445coll4
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 12:34 GMT (UK)
I see from 1901/1910 census that George's son George b1865 Honolulu, is a Licensed Victualler in Ashton Old Road, Ardwick. Father in 1901 was publican in Ashton New Road.

I have had no joy tracing the Wyvern. Maybe it got renamed, but a classy yacht like that should be recorded somewhere.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 02 November 17 12:42 GMT (UK)
From the North Wales Chronicle of 8 October 1881:

Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 02 November 17 12:49 GMT (UK)
A fine looking vessel https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1869EnV28-p334.jpg
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 17:17 GMT (UK)
That yacht was built by Thomas Brassey's company - now there is a man who deserves to be better known.

I wonder where the Roberts are buried. Could be worth a trip if there is a family plot somewhere, but I seem to be finding death records rather than burial records.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 02 November 17 19:19 GMT (UK)
Elias is buried in "Greater Manchester" per deceasedonline.com  - it will cost you a couple of quid to get the details.

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 20:30 GMT (UK)
That's strange, I did a search on there expecting to have to pay to get the details, but it only found one hit and that was in Edinburgh - have just done it again with the same result. So looked to me like they didn't cover the area.

The graveyard where my relatives in Ardwick/Chorlton were buried is now a car park or similar. All traces removed except a marker stone, but that was the other half of my family.

Steve
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 02 November 17 20:41 GMT (UK)
Quote
That's strange, I did a search on there expecting to have to pay to get the details, but it only found one hit and that was in Edinburgh

So you didn't see this one?
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Thursday 02 November 17 23:21 GMT (UK)
Nope - but I see what I did now - I didn't spot it wanted the surname first, then the forename. If you look for Roberts Elias instead of Elias Roberts you get the one in Edinburgh.

While looking through the Pacific Commercial Advertiser for 1868 I realise that the journey of George Roberts and his family to Hawaii of 147 days was pretty fast - the journey of the Prussian Barque Wilhelm from London to Hawaii via Cape Horn in 1868 took 264 days - delayed by bad weather at Cape Horn they eventually had to put back in to the Falklands as half the crew had developed scurvy and as a result they were unable to work the ship in bad weather. I assume the Mercia took the same route, but sailing round Cape Horn is never for the faint hearted.
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Saturday 04 November 17 14:24 GMT (UK)
Have found that George Robert's wife Frances and 4 children (of 5 surviving) departed Hawaii on 20th March 1873 aboard the American Barque D.C Murray, under Captain Shepherd, destined for San Fransisco. This from Honolulu information published in the Pacific Commercial Advertiser. No doubt their return journey would take advantage of the transcontinental railroad which was completed in 1869, and far better and faster than returning via Cape Horn. I haven't yet discovered whether George had gone ahead, or needed to remain behind until the auction of their house and contents was complete. I can find no record of him departing over the next month, so maybe he went ahead. The San Francisco passenger lists don't seem to exist before 1890s.
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 04 November 17 14:32 GMT (UK)
Quote
Have found that George Robert's wife Frances and 4 children (of 5 surviving) departed Hawaii on 20th March 1873

Interesting. That was the day of the auction of the house at Emma Street and its contents.
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: CheshireSteve on Saturday 04 November 17 16:21 GMT (UK)
Interesting. That was the day of the auction of the house at Emma Street and its contents.

That doesn't leave much time to settle up.

I have looked back as far as the previous August and not found him in passenger lists. I wonder if as a former Chief Engineer on the Kilauea he managed to get signed on as crew for the trip in exchange for his services (even though DC Murray was a sailing ship there would have been a lot of engineering in the steering and maybe power winches etc.). That still leaves one child unaccounted for. Alternatively he may have travelled 'steerage' and not been listed. It would be a bit tough on his wife to make such a long journey with three young children and a babe in arms, so I suspect he was there with her.
Title: Re: Manchester to Hawaii c1865 returning to Manchester c1872
Post by: Lisa in California on Saturday 02 December 17 21:37 GMT (UK)
I don't believe this has been mentioned?  Could this man be your George as well?

Sailing from Hiogo*, Japan to Honolulu, Hawaii on board the Miranda, arriving 4 December 1869
Geo Roberts, age 31 - England.  Machinest

*Could it have been Hyogo?