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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Gillg on Tuesday 07 November 17 14:44 GMT (UK)
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There is a suggestion that information from mobile phones could be used to replace a census. We already know that smartphones in particular allow businesses and "snoopers", including criminals, to track where and what their users are doing and to build up a picture of the lifestyle of these users. I'm glad my only occasionally used old style mobile doesn't give away too much information (I hope).
How could information gathered in this way be as accurate as a questionnaire? (Yes, I know some answers on census forms are not strictly true. ::)) People who don't have a smartphone or seldom use their mobile could be excluded. One example of misleading information would be to assume that where people are at night is their home address or during the day their place of work, thus excluding night shift workers or people having a day shopping or visiting their hairdresser's or something.
Seems like census information obtained in this way would be at best haphazard and at least misleading, and certainly would not form a basis upon which predictions about health, education or housing needs could be safely formed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/06/census-could-replaced-data-mobile-phones-track-people-live-work/
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I've not heard of that
I would be one of the ones missing
I don't have a smartphone and rarely use my "only makes phonecalls" mobile
I had heard somewhere that they are considering an online form rather than a paper form -- but again, some people might still be left off -- but most people have access to a computer somewhere in their life even if only at the local library
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I can't see that ever working, not if the government want reasonably correct details. I wonder what percentage of the population actually owns a smart phone? Looking at one set of statistics less than 20% of over 60s do.
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I would be one of the ones missing
I don't have a smartphone and rarely use my "only makes phonecalls" mobile
I had heard somewhere that they are considering an online form rather than a paper form -- but again, some people might still be left off -- but most people have access to a computer somewhere in their life even if only at the local library
Same here, Marmalady, re the phone :P :P
The latest census here in Oz, people could do it online, and it was a bit of a debacle.
Site crashed because too many people left it to the last minute, and then couldn't get on.
According to the media, the government 'had not anticipated' the site might crash if everyone tried to use it at the one time !!! ::) ::) ::)
Dawn M
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What I can see of the article doesn't really seem to say that mobile phones could be used to replace a census.
It actually says
The plan is part of a Government-backed programme that could see the traditional questionnaire abandoned and other data sources, including phone records, used instead.
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Count me as a 'missing' person where 'MOB' (My Own Business) ;D is concerned!!!
I don't have a smart phone (I'm too smart) :D
I seldom use my old Nokia or top it up (PAYG) for that matter.
I like my comp for my hobby (I will let folks guess what that is) :P as I like to see images & text in full without having to expand/scroll etc!
I also like to be able to type with both hands using the tips of my fingers...not my nails (to make sure I press the correct buttons).
This message has taken me very little time to type but if I was using a small/smart phone it would have taken me 10 times as long!!!
I joked not so long ago on a thread on here...
Future generations will be visiting Graveyards/Burial sites & Headstones/MIs will read like this...
Here lies the body of AM23ajwj2b (you get the meaning)... their DNA numbers ;)
Annie
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The plan is part of a Government-backed programme that could see the traditional questionnaire abandoned and other data sources, including phone records, used instead.
Not sure that would work at all regarding phones?
I have my wee mob & a home phone but my calls (added together) using either/both in 1 month could equate to less than 10 calls outbound.
I seldom carry my mob phone either!
In the past I have visited friends who spent the entire time texting others to the point where I made my excuses & left as I find it somewhat boring having people read out their messages then reading out their replies...
I keep my Mob switched off (I only use it for emergencies), I don't answer my home phone unless I'm expecting a call or if the caller is leaving a message (answerphone), I will then answer if it's someone I wish to talk to.
I get so many unsolicited calls it's an intrusion i.e. I don't answer!
My answerphone is always full to capacity within 5 - 7 days with unanswered/unwanted calls with NO messages left (can't they take a hint) ???
There's more chance of finding & contacting me on RC ;D
Annie
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What I can see of the article doesn't really seem to say that mobile phones could be used to replace a census.
It actually says
The plan is part of a Government-backed programme that could see the traditional questionnaire abandoned and other data sources, including phone records, used instead.
Exactly - and it's not really news. It's all part of the research into mining "big data", to extract useful information. For instance, gathering data on property ownership, value of housing across the country, size of house etc may be more efficiently gathered by mining Rightmove and Zoopla data than by asking people questions on a traditional census form.
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I think I've missed something :-\
What data could be collected via phone records ???
Annie
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I think I've missed something :-\
What data could be collected via phone records ???
Annie
One example is the pattern of where people work in relation to where they live. If your data shows that you make the same journey for five days a week, it's a pretty good guess that this is a commuting pattern. Big data mining techniques combine millions of records in this way to build up a picture of population trends.
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If you're wondering how these techniques could replicate the census returns that we're accustomed to seeing (age, occupation, relation to head of house, place of birth etc), well, they won't. However, the purpose of the census is to provide data for healthcare planning, infrastructure, house-building etc and the current research is to find out whether new techniques could be used to satisfy these requirements and whether they could do so more efficiently that the 10 yearly questionnaire.
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Hmm...
MiC...this is not aimed at yourself, merely a scenario ;)
My father's neighbour had a house fire which caused smoke damage to my father's house & I travelled daily for 6 months (30 miles each way) to clean up, decorate etc. having to sift through every single thing to see what could be saved (a lifetime of belongings) which included letters/photos/postcards among many other things i.e. it could have been assumed I was travelling to/from work which couldn't be any further from the truth & I'm sure others travel long distances to relatives frequently too.
Annie
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It is not just mobile phone data but things like insurance details given on electoral registers, NHS lists, insurance applications, credit/debit card usage, oyster cards (London), travel cards for the elderly and the disabled there are numerous data banks being built up on everyone of us whether we know or not.
These data sets are live data, rather than census data which is up to 10 years out of date.
When such databases take over from census (as much of it already has) one thing is certain, we the public will not have access to the data.
Cheers
Guy
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Hmm...
MiC...this is not aimed at yourself, merely a scenario ;)
My father's neighbour had a house fire which caused smoke damage to my father's house & I travelled daily for 6 months (30 miles each way) to clean up, decorate etc. having to sift through every single thing to see what could be saved (a lifetime of belongings) which included letters/photos/postcards among many other things i.e. it could have been assumed I was travelling to/from work which couldn't be any further from the truth & I'm sure others travel long distances to relatives frequently too.
Annie
Except you were, agreed it was not paid employment but you did travel to a place where you worked. The fact that you were not in paid employment may have been gleaned from other data sets such as shopping, CCTV cameras on your route, your father's address etc.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy...
How would anyone have known what I was doing inside those doors?
Big Brother has been around for many years now although many people were/are unaware.
None-the-less, my phones won't give them many clues about where I was/am as I seldom use or answer my phones.
It's actually very interesting to know what methods are used which is an invasion of privacy really & not unlike 'phone tapping' & then as you say, we will have no access in the future to our own past...
How ironic ::)
Annie
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By gathering huge amounts of such data, cross-referenced with other sources, such as those that Guy lists, patterns can be established, and conclusions drawn. Individual discrepancies like you visiting your father's house, will be insignificant.
Another example - mining social media for specific disease-related words and cross-referencing with mobile phone data has allowed researchers to map disease outbreaks and could be used to plan healthcare responses.
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Guy...
How would anyone have known what I was doing inside those doors?
Big Brother has been around for many years now although many people were/are unaware.
None-the-less, my phones won't give them many clues about where I was/am as I seldom use or answer my phones.
It's actually very interesting to know what methods are used which is an invasion of privacy really & not unlike 'phone tapping' & then as you say, we will have no access in the future to our own past...
How ironic ::)
Annie
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They wouldn't but they would know it was your father's house and they could even know his neighbour had a fire not long before and shopping habits could fill in other details.
Things do not always have to be spelled out to make reasonable assumptions.
They would also have your record of employment or lack of employment for the relevant period.
They would also know or could easily find out your father's age, state of health, and any details they wanted to about you to complete the picture.
These may include your photo (from driving licence or passport), your level of education from school records, where you live who you live with and the price paid for your house. If you drove to your dad's house much of the route you used through roadside cameras and 101 other details about your life.
There is no reason to be worried about this (not that you seem to be) as in most cases it is used to improve life but it can also be used to disrupt criminals and terrorists.
You could go to https://data.gov.uk/ and dig down or even contact them for further information if required.
For instance if you want to see details of your driving licence (if you have one) visit
https://www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence
To see if your car is MoTed or taxed see
https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/
There are many sites where you can discover many details about yourself or with a little bit of information about other people.
Cheers
Guy
PS If you travelled 30 miles each way a day for a number of months and there were reasons to suspect it was for employment then agencies such as HMRC might start looking into why you were travelling such distances and what could be the possible reason, but there would probably be other reasons to flag you for further investigation.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy...
That's correct, I'm not worried but what does worry me is the cost of the way this data is collected against a form filled in on a few sheets of A4 & the fact that our future generations won't be able to access any info. on us to give them an insight on how we live(d) ;D
Annie
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Quite a few of us seem to make little use of mobile phones, let alone smart phones. Is it a generational thing, do you think? My children, both in their early 40s, use their smart phones for just about everything (banking, shopping, GPS info, etc., as well as social media and messaging sites), so the information gathered about them must be significant.
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I am afraid you (or rather your descendants) will have to get used to the fact they will not be able to access census data after the 2021 census and even that might yet be cancelled.
Future census will be replaced by data gathered from administrative sources including electoral registers, HMRC, School and college registers, the NHS Central Patients Register (evolved from the 1939 National Registration), augmented by data complied by the private sector including utility companies, credit reference agencies, retail and financial companies customer information systems.
This annual complied data will be checked against or compared to an annual 1% sample census.
The costs of the 2011 census for England and Wales was about £482 million and was expected to grow in the future (the 2011 cost over twice the cost of the 2001 census).
There was a project called the “Beyond 2011” or “Beyond 2011 Program” which involved a public consultation in late 2011 to early 20012 which looked into the ideas for the future.
See- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_2011
Cheers
Guy
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Many people are surprised by what can be gleaned from publicly-accessible sources, let alone the hidden stuff.
One correspondent was annoyed that I had listed her birth registration on my website. I explained where it came from, and pointed out that H.M. the Queen and all her descendants are listed in the same publicly-accessible dataset.
As a One-Namer, I need to deal with children whose birth registrations show that their parents never married, or married abroad. No hint of a mother's given name in a birth registration index, is there? I can't afford to buy all those certificates (who could?).
However, I have successfully worked out many of these family relationships simply by examining their lists of Facebook "friends".
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Both my husband's phone and my older daughter's phone are in my name. I wonder how that would work.
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There was earlier mention of utility bills also being used as additional information about us. How could that work? All ours are in my husband's name only.
It's a pain when I try to phone a supplier with a query, as they always want to speak to my husband, "who pays the bills"!
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There was earlier mention of utility bills also being used as additional information about us. How could that work? All ours are in my husband's name only.
It's a pain when I try to phone a supplier with a query, as they always want to speak to my husband, "who pays the bills"!
There are lots of ways in which this could be useful, irrespective of who pays the bills. As an example - looking at the average heating bills of different types and ages of properties can inform policy on energy-saving projects. If it can show that spending £xx on subsidising carefully targeted insulation programmes could save households £yy and reduce carbon emissions by ZZ tonnes per year, that would be useful data for planning purposes.
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Don't forget - the census is not about creating informative records for future family historians, it is about gathering data for planning purposes.