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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: KiwiRose on Tuesday 07 November 17 23:04 GMT (UK)
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I have been searching for a branch of the Gardner family who lived in Upper Glenwhirry. The goal was to trace the correct Gardner descendants back to the 1813 farming couple, Thomas, aged 62, and wife Ann Gardner, 48yrs.
The Population of Ballyeaston Congregation in 1813 is my starting point and I wish to fill in the gaps from then until civil records begin. Time spent searching for Gardner, and variants, on numerous sites online has resulted in my total confusion due to the various branches and repeat family names in the later generations. Familysearch was helpful but threw up some anomalies. The Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church records may unscramble my confusion by filling in who Thomas and Ann’s children married and their descendants.
The Second Ballyeaston Church baptismal records for 1813 to 1880 are available through Emerald Ancestors online. Unfortunately Gardner is not listed in the prevalent family baptism family surnames list so that route appears to be closed.
The First Presbyterian Church registers would be my best bet. I understand that PRONI has the records but visiting is not an option for me. I am hoping the registers are from about 1813. Earlier would be wonderful! Is there any site online (or pending), or book published etc with the First Church registers that I could troll through at my leisure to sort out my pre civil records Gardners?
Regards,
KiwiRose.
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According to PRONI's online Guide to Church Records-
1st Ballyeaston Baptisms, 1814-1924; marriages, 1813-90; marriage Notices, 1933-2002; indexes to baptisms, 1814-1924; census, 1813.
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide_to_church_records.pdf
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Aghadowey,
Thank you for the link to PRONI’s Guide to Church Records. I have downloaded the guide as I know I will continue to find it a useful reference in the future when searching for other branches of my Northern Ireland tree.
It is pleasing to note that the 1st Ballyeaston baptism and marriages cover the gap years of 1813 to 1864/1845. Copyright issues aside, it would be great if PRONI intends, in the not too distant future, to make some/all the Church registers they hold available online.
Kind regards
KiwiRose.
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Copyright issues aside, it would be great if PRONI intends, in the not too distant future, to make some/all the Church registers they hold available online.
I heard the former Director of PRONI discuss this issue at a public meeting. She said that there are no plans to do so. The size of their collection would mean that it would be a hugely expensive piece of work. They could only recoup the costs by charging (or by entering into an arrangement with a commercial company who would charge) and they don’t want to do that because they are committed to providing access to the records free of charge. Such money as they do have will be spent on conservation and acquiring new collections, plus extending existing on-line collections such as the wills.
If you can’t get to PRONI yourself, you might need to employ a researcher for a few hours, to go through the records and copy the relevant bits.
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My understanding, from what I was told about 30 years ago, was that PRONI were given permission to microfilm the various church records with the understanding that printing copies was not allowed. It was, however, possible to purchase a copy of a particular microfilm from PRONI after obtaining permission from the relevant church.
Links to various PRONI sections are here in IRELAND RESOURCES-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=753389.0
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My understanding, from what I was told about 30 years ago, was that PRONI were given permission to microfilm the various church records with the understanding that printing copies was not allowed. It was, however, possible to purchase a copy of a particular microfilm from PRONI after obtaining permission from the relevant church.
That’s right. They did use to sell copies of whole films, where appropriate permission existed. I enquired about that a few years back. I was told that because microfilm technology is now almost obsolete, there’s only 1 company they know of still able to provide this service, but it’s at a prohibitive price. Something like £100 per film. Consequently PRONI no longer sell copies of their films.
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Aghadowey and Elwyn Soutter,
Thank you for your informative answers to my query regarding PRONI and possible viewing online or purchasing of their church holdings, in any form, of Church registers.
In view of PRONI’s policy, have you any thoughts as to how Emerald Ancestors have somehow managed to obtain the 2nd Ballyeaston church baptisms? I get the impression that they used PRONI microfilm. Maybe that route could be a taken by EA or similar enterprising sites for other NI church historical registers.
It could also be a way of raising funds for a local church or would all copies of a church’s registers have been surrendered to PRONI? I’m clutching at straws here!
Even though I would rather put the money towards benefiting the church itself by purchasing photocopies of the relevant pages of their registers, it looks like the only practical way, at the moment, is to employ a PRONI researcher.
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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KiwiRose,
With the Church of Ireland their records are public records and so are probably the most easily accessible, in terms of copying. With the Roman Catholic church it’s really up to the bishops to decide about access, and that can be granted en bloc for all parishes. But with Presbyterian churches, the records are not public documents and they belong to each congregation. So one congregation may agree to allow access and another may not.
I have no idea how Emerald Ancestors obtained their records for Ballyeaston 2nd. I suspect it was probably from the originals rather than PRONI’s copy, but you would need to ask them to get the facts. It may just be that the 2nd Congregation agreed to allow EA to copy them when the 1st did not.
PRONI generally have microfilmed copies and the originals are still held by the church. There are some exceptions to that, notably if a church has closed. There are some originals in PRONI and some in the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast. It all rather depends on what the congregation decided to do with their records. PRONI’s copy for Ballyeaston 1st is a microfilm copy, not the original.
Some Presbyterian churches have put their baptism & marriage records on CDs and sell them. (Donegore 1st springs to mind in this respect). But it’s up to each congregation to decide. One congregation may have an enthusiastic committee eager to raise money by providing this service, and another may not. If you write to the Minister for assistance, especially with a simple enquiry, some will reply with helpful answers and some will ignore your letter. It sounds as though what you hope to do is a trawling search. Most Ministers haven’t the time to do that, which is why I think you may need a researcher to do it for you.
There are also theological reasons why some Presbyterian congregations are reluctant to allow commercial and other organisations to copy their records but we’ll leave that for another day.
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Elwyn,
Thank you for sharing your considerable knowledge and responding to my musings. I really appreciate your taking the time and trouble to explain the situation regarding NI church records and the varying individual church views to me. Good on the Donegore 1st for putting their records on a CD for sale. What a shame that I would only have the odd distant family member who resided in the area.
My next step is very obvious if I wish to fill in those missing years with proof and accuracy using the only real records available.
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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Hi KiwiRose
Did you ever contact the church through its website? If you did you would have contacted me. I have looked back over my emails but dont see anything from you. I can look up the records for you. Do you have any details of what happened Thomas and Ann's children?
As for EA I don't think its Second Ballyeaston records they have but ours. Only Issue is they made a big mistake in reading the records. The are claiming the record dates are Baptismal dates but they are really dates of birth. Oh and they never got permission to copy the records.
John Waugh
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KiwiRose,
I looked at the PRONI catalogue of church records. I feel sure that John’s advice is correct. Ballyeaston 1sts records start in 1814, Ballyeaston 2nds in 1821, so the start date you have suggests it’s the 1st that are on the EA site. It looks as though John can assist you with those records, but if you want to look at the 2nds too, then you may need to ask a researcher to go to PRONI for them. This what PRONI hold for Ballyeaston 2nd:
Baptisms, 1821-61, 1865-7 and 1883-1967;
marriages, 1826-41 and 1845-1936; marriage notices,
1938-2002; burials, 1842-9 and 1901-18; committee
minutes, 1869-1941; session minutes, 1862-1956;
communicants’ lists, 1847-58; accounts, 1893-1903;
seat list, c.1870; list of stipend payers, 1873-91.
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Hi KiwiRose,
(At least some of) the Ballyeaston records are up online, courtesy of the efforts of William Fee McKINNEY, Ron COLEMAN and Family Search (aka LDS).
Ref: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=738555.msg5849047#msg5849047
However, their overall coverage & internal consistency may not be secure.
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You can't ask for anything better than a locally-resident knowledgeable man-power-resource on the ground with access to the records. Win, Win, Win!
'Tis great to see JW back in action once again.
Capt. Jock
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Thank you for your help and advice Elwyn, Capt Jock and John Waugh.
I am quite excited that Elwyn and John Waugh believe that the EA site’s Ballyeaston Church records are from the 1st Ballyeaston. It may now be possible to eventually get proof that my circumstantial evidence is correct (or otherwise) and unscramble my Gardner muddle.
Capt Jock,
Ron Coleman’s IGI entries on FamilySearch initially assisted me with my first steps in the search to solve the mystery of my Gardner/McAllister /Elliott family.
I agree that, “You can't ask for anything better than a locally-resident knowledgeable man-power-resource on the ground with access to the records. Win, Win, Win!”
John Waugh
I contacted the Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church, with your help, around July/ Aug 2015 when you responded to my Gardner/McAllister/Elliott family thread on Rootschat’s Antrim board. You also confirmed the baptismal dates of Thomas and Mary McAllister, children of Anne and Robert McAllister at that time. Thanks to you I was also able to purchase the book, “His House on the Hill.....,” later in 2015. I often refer to the 1813 census appendix for research purposes.
I appreciate your offer to look up records for me. Other than IGI possibilities, I have no knowledge of the marriages/deaths of the Upper Glenwhirry family of Thomas and Ann Gardner themselves or children, apart from the daughter I believe to be the Ann/e who, in 1828, married Robert McAllister (possibly son of William McAlister of Ballyboley). I would be especially grateful to learn of the exact date/parents/ witnesses in their 1828 marriage record, and the death details/date c1834 of Robert McAllister. Any other BMDs of Ann and Robert’s parents/ siblings you came across would be a bonus, but only if you ever have the time and records are quickly and easily found. I am a direct descendant of Anne and Robert McAllister. My research is based on a lot of circumstantial evidence and I would love to prove, or disprove, that I am following the correct branch.
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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I am also a wee bit interested in the Gardner (Gardnier) family myself. Concerning my own roots, this is what I know:
1. Jane Gardner of Magheraban married c. 1824 to John M'Cawley of Rashee
2. Robert McCauley, son of John, m. Elizabeth Service, dau of John Service and
Sarah Gardner.
3. David Macauley (1846-1921) son of the above Robert, m. 1. in 1871 at Ballymena 3rd Presbyterian Church to Agnes Gardner; m. 2 in the U.S.A. to Mary A. Campbell.
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Pablo1
I am delighted to learn that there is at least one other person researching their family connections to the Gardner families from the Ballyeaston area of Antrim. The 1813 population census taken by Rev. Samuel Elder lists three other Gardner households as well as the Upper Glenwhirry cluster of four families. It is highly likely that these Gardner families are all related in some way.
You may have already found the Gardner / McAuley information below but just in case I will add it.
There is no Jane Gardner listed as either a child or wife among any Gardner families in the 1813 census.
McAuley families in the 1813 census:
Lower Glenwhirry: John McAuley aged 39 yrs with Jane (39 yrs) his wife and children aged 9, 8, 5, 3, 6mths. No John.
Ballyboley: The only John McAuley noted was a 4 year old in the household of farmer Robert McAuley (52 yrs) and wife Jennet (53 yrs).
Rashee: No McAuley’s
I couldn’t figure out the years being referred to but I have come across a Jane Gardiner of Magheraban who married a 30yr old farmer John McCawley of Ardymagh born Braidlee, Glenwherry mentioned in Full text of "Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland"
My understanding from researching on the internet is that Skerrywhirry is known as Magheraban and it is part of Glenwhirry/Glenwherry, however I may be incorrect.
As mentioned earlier in this thread my interest is in Ann Gardner, possibly daughter of Thomas and Ann Gardner of Upper Glenwhirry and sibling of Sara, Elisabeth, James, Robert, John, Andrew.
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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KiwiRose,
Yes, the John McCawley of Ardymaugh, born Braidlee, should be the husband of Jane Gardner (Gardiner). I have looked through the proni wills and other sites dealing with the Gardner family, but as with yourself, I have not been able to find the McCauley connections in any other sources on line. Luckily, though, my branch of the McCauley family emigrated to New York, so their local papers offered some information from the late 1880s onwards.