RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: moiramount on Thursday 09 November 17 12:07 GMT (UK)
-
Hi, can anyone tell me where the factory was in Doncaster where they used to rivet the panels for the Lancaster bombers during the war. I was watching women at war and a lady from Lincolnshire said she used to work there during the war putting rivets in the panels. She also said it was a very large factory. Name and area would be brilliant. Finningley aerodrome may be a clue but not sure.
Moira
-
Hello Moira
In the Second World War the Government created a Ministry called the Ministry of Aircraft Production (M.A.P.) under Lord Beaverbrook, in 1940.
Some factories were controlled by MAP and some factories received MAP / Air Ministry contracts to manufacture aircraft parts and your Doncaster factory could also be one of these.
The London North Eastern Railway (who had engineering Works at places including Doncaster), did War Work.
Science Museum - Example
"Commemorative Plaque, London & North Eastern Railway, issued to LNER by Ministry of Aircraft Production in appreciation of their help in building Spitfires for 1939-45 war."
---------
Which Doncaster factory and whether it was under the Ministry of Aircraft Production (MAP), or Sub-contractor to the Aircraft factory making the Lancaster, that made these Lancaster parts you have seen in the film, I don't know.
Some of this film comes from Imperial War Museum and various other Museums and Archives, too numerous to list.
If it is a recently made program, try playing the credits, although not everyone gets a listing.
Mark
-
Brooklands Aviation (later Westland) apparently had a factory in the Doncaster area which made parts for Lancasters as well as doing other things.
Emeltom
-
Thankyou both for your interesting info on the Doncaster factories.
Moira
-
Brooklands/ Westland certainly made Lysanders, when this contract was cancelled they repaired Wellington bombers, I seem to remember that workers were deliberately given misinformation about what they were producing.
Mike
-
Yes Mike, I've heard that the buses they used to take the workers to the factories had blacked out windows so they didn't know where they were going.
-
Hi Moira
According to this website Avro (like other makers) did have Sub-Contractors.
"By August 1940, correspondence between senior members of Avro, Avro's sub-contractors and the Air Ministry reveal all parties were actually discussing the new four-engine design. But as yet no commitment had made towards producing a prototype aircraft."
Quoted from, where you'll find a contact email
http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_hist.htm
Avro's predecessor to the Lancaster was the Manchester twin engined RAF Bomber.
The first Lancaster prototype was an improved Manchester III and later renamed the Lancaster.
Regards Mark
-
d
Brooklands Aviation (later Westland) apparently had a factory in the Doncaster area which made parts for Lancasters as well as doing other things.
Emeltom
Westland made the Lysander.
500 Westland Lysander Mark III aircraft were ordered, but only 17 were built at Westland (Doncaster) Ltd., as W6939 - 6945 and W6951 - 6960 Mk III and the remainder were cancelled.
If 500 Lysander aircraft were all ordered from Westland, but only 17 were built and if all the 500 Lysander aircraft were intended to be built at Doncaster, then this suggests the Doncaster plant was diverted onto other work.
Information from:-
"Lysander Special" by Bruce Robertson, First Published 1977, page 59
"British Military Aircraft Serials 1912-1966" by Bruce Robertson (Revised Edition 1967)
---------
Some general information here
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Avro
1939 publication indicates A. V. ROE & Co. Ltd., was a Branch of Hawker Siddeley Aircraft Co. Ltd.
The Lancaster bomber manufacturers were:-
1) AVRO (A.V. ROE & Co. Ltd.) of Manchester, others built at Yeadon
2) METROPOLITAN-VICKERS
3) VICKERS-ARMSTRONGS (Castle Bromwich) 200 ordered (100 cancelled) PP663-695; PP713-758 and PP772-792. Others cancelled.
4) ARMSTRONG WHITWORTH AIRCRAFT
5) AUSTIN MOTORS
240 + 280 Avro 683 Lancaster Mk I were cancelled with Vickers Armstrongs (Chester)
250 Avro Lancaster/Lincoln, cancelled order with Metropolitan-Vickers
37 were built by Metropolitan Vickers, but assembled by A. V. ROE (at Woodford)
The predecessor of A. V. Roe & Co. Ltd. (AVRO), was A. V. ROE.
Part of A. V. ROE became:-
SAUNDERS-ROE (SARO) Isle of Wight and Hants and the other part of A. V. ROE became
A. V. ROE & Co. Ltd (AVRO) [who made the Lancaster and other aircraft].
Later SAUNDERS ROE (SARO) were absorbed with Helicopter Div (Bristol) into WESTLAND AIRCRAFT, to become Westland Helicopters.
It does look as though there was a ROE and a WESTLAND connection AFTER WW 2 (by about 1959). Perhaps Lancaster parts were Sub-contracted, possibly to Westland or another Company in Doncaster?
A 1931 reports say WHITEHALL SECURITIES had a large holding in Saunders-Roe Ltd.
Rollason Aircraft Servicing - Doncaster, 1935
Mr. W. A. Rollason, managing director of Rollason Aircraft Services, Ltd., has been appointed technical director and his company will service the machines at Doncaster, Leicester, Norwich, Birmingham and Croydon.
Mark
-
Hi Moira
Westland Doncaster appears to be a "Shadow Factory" (see attachment).
Shadow Factories were the result of the Shadow Scheme / Shadow Factory plan devised in the mid 1930s (initially set up before M.A.P. came into being in 1940)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_shadow_factories
Isabel Milburn in the article called the "Aeronautical Inspection Directorate" recalls Doncaster ...
I was instructed to go to Brooklands Aviation Co. Ltd. In Doncaster, Yorkshire, where I worked on behalf of the Government as an employee of the Aeronautical Inspection Directorate, known as A.I.D.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/01/a8851601.shtml
The National Archives (hopefully this new link will continue to work, if not it has been pasted underneath)
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100217035530tf_/http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Shadow_Factories%2C_World_War_Two&diff=prev&oldid=51824
This memorandum was originally written in March 1993.
In view of political developments in Europe, the Government decided in 1936 upon a scheme of expansion in the aircraft industry.
In addition to building extensions to factories already in existence, a scheme for the construction of nine new factories for the manufacture and assembly of aero engines, aircraft and associated equipment was also introduced. This scheme was also known as the Shadow Factory plan and was assisted from Government Funds. In the rearmament years up to May 1940 this plan was carried out by the Air Ministry and the Directorate of Air Ministry Factories.
The Directorate of Air Ministy Factories, under the auspices of the Ministry of Aircraft Production gradually took charge of the construction of the buildings required for aircraft producion.
In early 1943 the functions of the directorate of Air Ministry Factories were transferred to the Minstry of Works.
Information concerning the Shadow Factory plan and Shadow Factories can be found among the following records and descriptive class list code headings held by The National Archives. ATTACHED
END OF QUOTE
CABINET PAPERS (has results for shadow factories)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpaperssearch/
If visiting TNA, Kew, the attached files (& search by Code) references are usually original files and you will need current Photo ID (Passport) AND printed CURRENT Name with Address ID, to obtain a READERS TICKET. See the links on their Visit Us page.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/visit-us/
If you find a document confirming Lancaster parts being made in Doncaster, by whom and when, I'd be interested? Little (online search engines) about the Doncaster Shadow Factory.
Mark
-
Thankyou for all your replies, very interesting and informative.
-
Lancaster experimental work was at Manchester and actually an improved AVRO Manchester III, type aircraft.
"The prototype aircraft (BT308) was assembled by Avro's Experimental Flight Department at Manchester's Ringway Airport and made its first flight on 9th January 1941. It proved to be a great improvement on its predecessor, being ‘one of the few warplanes in history to be 'right' from the start’."
http://www.baesystems.com/cs/Satellite?c=BAEHeritage_C&childpagename=Sweden%2FBAELayout&cid=1434575554649&d=Touch&pagename=SwedenWrapper
-
One location which seems to have been missed is International Harvesters' factory in Wheatley. I was told by a friend, the later Albert Gibbs, who was born in 1914, and died in his late 90s that he had built Lancaster Bombers there during WW2 while working as a toolmaker on the Lancaster production line.
-
One location which seems to have been missed is International Harvesters' factory in Wheatley. I was told by a friend, the later Albert Gibbs, who was born in 1914, and died in his late 90s that he had built Lancaster Bombers there during WW2 while working as a toolmaker on the Lancaster production line.
Hello Redroger
'International' wouldn't surprise me, as they have been involved over the pond (USA and/or Canada) with aircraft.
Herbert Austin (also known to us as Lord Austin) of the Motor Car industry headed the 'Shadow Factories' Scheme and the idea was to use other engineering industries to make aircraft and parts.
Basically, they had to begin to gear up in the late 1930s onward, as the current aircraft factories were not going to meet the huge demand for aircraft and aircraft spare parts and modified parts.
Therefore, some aircraft production and parts would be made in Shadow Factories, by those in allied companies such as vehicle, tractor, combine and other types of allied engineering, who would use their expertise and skill base to build aircraft and aircraft parts, from aircraft Engineers drawings.
This factory seen on the film could really be any engineering company at Doncaster which took on war production work and contracts.
Just to give you some idea about Contracts 1936 to 1946 there are 784 returns (from the Series searched) Contract Ledgers and Files survive in TNA (formerly Public Record Office, PRO)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=contracts&_col=0&_cr=AVIA%7CAIR%7CDSIR%7CSUPP&_dss=range&_sd=1936&_ed=1946&_ro=any&_hb=tna&_st=adv
One of the set of large surviving Contract Ledgers seen have 100s likely 1,000s of Contracts, with Contract numbers, dates and company names.
For those interested in Yorkshire, part of the London Air Ministry moved to Harrogate in 1940, but they had Offices all over the place in Cities and Towns to handle local factories and its day to day functions.
Mark