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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: bugbear on Sunday 12 November 17 11:22 GMT (UK)
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This weekend, my SO read an obituary:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/26/gerald-bernbaum-obituary
Her extended family tree includes a Joseph Sack, and Sack (Sacks, Sach, Sachs) is not a very common name. In the obituary it says that Gerald Bernbaum's mother was Betty (née Sack), and his father Benjamin.
I checked my database, and Joseph's family does not include a Betty, (or Elizabeth, etc).
Here's Gerald's birth(FreeBMD):
Births Jun 1936
BERNBAUM Gerald Sack Stepney 1c 175
Obit says d2017, aged 81, 2017-81=1936.
Here's the marriage (FreeBMD):
Marriages Jun 1933
Bernbarm Benjamin Sack Hackney 1b 977
Sack Becky Bernbaum Hackney 1b 977
My database DOES have a Rebecca Sack, a very plausible match for Becky. Is this "my" Rebecca?
My Sacks family have parents Barnet Sack b1878, Rosa Ackman, (from "Kiev, Ukraine"), another match for the Obit.
Rebecca was b1905, in Tottenham.
Benjamin Bernbaum was b1908, to Isaac and Nellie (from "Poland, Russia"); Isaac was indeed a tailor, so we infer
that Benjamin was; another match to the obit.
To further solidify my guess, I would very much like a DOB for the Becky Sack that
married Benjamin; the two most likely sources for this are her death record, and the 1939 register.
I cannot find her death record; :-(
I CAN find her still living with Benjamin in the 1965 Electoral Register (174 Kyverdale Rd).
I found the Bernbaum family, indexed under Bernbakm (!?!) in the 1939 register, but Beccy/Rebbecca/Betsy is not with them. :-(
So - it all looks good, but I'd like (at least) to have Bejamin's wife'd DOB to further consolidate the evidence.
Can anyone find it?
BugBear
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There is a Becky Bernbaum death in Hendon, Oct 1986 - DOB Feb 1905.
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Solid death for Benjamin (FreeBMD)
Deaths Sep 1967
BERNBAUM BENJAMIN 59 HACKNEY 5B 406
1967-59=1908
BugBear
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Benjamin was born late 1907 I think? (You say you have seen the 1939 for him).
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There is a Becky Bernbaum death in Hendon, Oct 1986 - DOB Feb 1905.
Bingo!
BugBear (grateful)
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Hi
Benjamin and Becky are buried in Rainham Cemetery, according to Jewishgen.
Benjamin died 3rd July 1967 aged 59
Becky died 23rd October 1986 aged 81
KR
Gaie
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Hi
Benjamin and Becky are buried in Rainham Cemetery, according to Jewishgen.
Benjamin died 3rd July 1967 aged 59
Becky died 23rd October 1986 aged 81
KR
Gaie
That adds another layer of certainty.
BugBear
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Oops. It turns out my "way in" to these sacks was a birth in 1921 of Joseph Sack, which (of course) gives the mother's maiden name in FreeBMD, "Ackman". This (in turn) led me to the birth of Kate Sack, in 1917.
Looking at my database, I have NO IDEA how I connected these two to the family headed by Barnet Sack and Rose, his wife. I did this work around 4 years ago, and I hadn't learned the importance of careful citing then. :'(
However, I have now manage to place Kate and her husband at 86 Antill rd in the post WW2 electoral register, and Barnet/Rose are at number 87. So it seems "likely".
I would VERY much like to confirm this; my best hope is to find one of 4 births in the GRO index (counter part to FreeBMD), which will give the MMN.
Solomon Sack 1904
Rebecca Sack 1905
Lilly Sack 1907
Jacob Sack 1910
I can find precisely NONE of these in FreeBMD (which is what I normally do before using GRO, since searching FreeBMD is easier).
Can anyone locate these births (and hence the mothers maiden name in the GRO birth index)?
BugBear (hoping for "Ackman")
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Hi
There are these possible birth regs from FreeBMD:
Jun Qtr 1903 Edmonton (includes Tottenham)
SACH Solomon 3a 558 (I've included this in case Barnet/Rosa got a bit confused when filling in the form!)
Sep Qtr 1904 Whitechapel (includes Spitalfields)
ZACKS Solomon 1c 245
1911 Census taken on 2/4/1911.
I've had no luck with the others so far.... :-\
Gaie
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A possible for Jacob?
Mar Qtr 1909 Edmonton
SHAIRE Jacob 3a 678
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Are these your Barnet & Rose?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11816629
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Probably Jacob:
SACK, JACK mmn ACKMAN
1911 M Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 565
:-\ :-\ Is this Lilly or Tilly?
SACK,(SAEK on FreeBMD) CHILE mmn HUCKMAN
1907 J Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 618
Maureen
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Hi
There are these possible birth regs from FreeBMD:
Jun Qtr 1903 Edmonton (includes Tottenham)
SACH Solomon 3a 558 (I've included this in case Barnet/Rosa got a bit confused when filling in the form!)
Sep Qtr 1904 Whitechapel (includes Spitalfields)
ZACKS Solomon 1c 245
1911 Census taken on 2/4/1911.
I've had no luck with the others so far.... :-\
Gaie
I suspect we're up against spelling/transcription issues; Barnet and Rosa were from Kiev, after all. While searching for your matches in the GRO, I've only found this:
SAKS, SOLOMON ZUDICMAN
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 267
Which is "another one".
I haven't found either of your matches in the GRO yet.
BugBear
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I have used FreeBMD's "Search Names"
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search-names.pl
to find phonetically similar names, at least in their transcription set.
I looked for ^(s|z)a(ch|k|ck)s?$ and found (with counts):
sach 3599
sachs 594
sack 895
sacks 557
sak 21
saks 101
zach 29
zachs 9
zack 172
zacks 65
zak 137
zaks 11
This is purely phonetic - if anyone knows more about Jewish names than I do, I'm more-than-open to suggestions and hints.
BugBear
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I used a spreadsheet to sort the names by frequency
sach 3599
sack 895
sachs 594
sacks 557
zack 172
zak 137
saks 101
zacks 65
zach 29
sak 21
zaks 11
zachs 9
BugBear
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Are these your Barnet & Rose?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11816629
Frankly, you're as good a judge as I am. But it certainly looks right. Thank you.
BugBear
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Hi
There are these possible birth regs from FreeBMD:
Jun Qtr 1903 Edmonton (includes Tottenham)
SACH Solomon 3a 558 (I've included this in case Barnet/Rosa got a bit confused when filling in the form!)
Sep Qtr 1904 Whitechapel (includes Spitalfields)
ZACKS Solomon 1c 245
1911 Census taken on 2/4/1911.
I've had no luck with the others so far.... :-\
Gaie
I've GRO'd the Whitechapel one;
ZACKS, SOLOMON LEVINSON
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 245
And found also this:
SAKS, SOLOMON ZUDICMAN
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 267
BugBear
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Can anyone find the GRO for this (from FreeBMD)
Births Mar 1905 Sach Becky Edmonton 0 3a 595
Edit found it. Sort of!
SACH, BEEKY AKERMAN
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 595
BugBear
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Thanks to all who helped - I'm still missing Solomon, but I've more than enough GRO entries with plausibly matching MMN, I've managed to connect up my original person (Joseph) with the rest of his family.
BugBear
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Hi
I have just found this on the Rootschat website. I am not sure from the posting if you believe you are related to Barnett and Rosa Sack - who are my great grandparents on my father's maternal side. So Betty Bernbaum (nee Sack) was my grandmother.
I can fill you in on several of the names and addresses you mention and there are still 3 grandchildren of Barnett and Rosa surviving who are my late father's cousins.
I hope this is of interest to you and possibly we are related.
Best regards and let me know if anything further.
Kevin Bernbaum
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Hi
I have just found this on the Rootschat website. I am not sure from the posting if you believe you are related to Barnett and Rosa Sack - who are my great grandparents on my father's maternal side. So Betty Bernbaum (nee Sack) was my grandmother.
I have sent you a PM. (Click the "MY MESSAGES" item in the top menu bar)
BugBear
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Hi
Apologies, but I am not sure how to reply with PM.
Joe was my father's uncle, the youngest of the siblings of whom the eldest were Sol and Betty (my grandmother).
I remember Joe well and Eileen too, who died relatively recently. My father gave the eulogy at her funeral. Yes Joe was a communist, I believe he was the agent to the only communist MP ever elected. It must have been the 1946 election and in the East End. Joe was very popular with the family, being the youngest and in marrying Eileen who wasn't Jewish not averse to a bit of scandal. I believe she was a great beauty albeit I only remember as an older woman and my grand mother's sister in law. I am in contact with both Joe and Eileen's children Naomi and Nicholas.
Of Joe's siblings of whom there were 6, one, Jack disappeared - no-one knows why albeit, Jack's direct relations tried to made contact last year with my Dad through Naomi.
Are you able to share the relevant part of the family tree?
I look forward to being in contact.
Many thanks
Kevin
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Hi
Apologies, but I am not sure how to reply with PM.
Just click the reply button, above the message!
Attached images show the messages menu, and the reply button.
BugBear
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I'm a new member of RootsChat, just joined: I am researching the Sack family on behalf of a friend, a descendant of Barnett and Rosa Sack, and was interested to come across this thread. It appears that I need to post three times before I can send PMs. So I will post this twice more, then I plan to PM bugbear and kbernbaum.
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Second post:
I'm a new member of RootsChat, just joined: I am researching the Sack family on behalf of a friend, a descendant of Barnett and Rosa Sack, and was interested to come across this thread. It appears that I need to post three times before I can send PMs. So I will post this twice more, then I plan to PM bugbear and kbernbaum.
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Third post:
I'm a new member of RootsChat, just joined: I am researching the Sack family on behalf of a friend, a descendant of Barnett and Rosa Sack, and was interested to come across this thread. It appears that I need to post three times before I can send PMs. So I will post this twice more, then I plan to PM bugbear and kbernbaum.