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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: jan21 on Sunday 12 November 17 20:15 GMT (UK)
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:'( My grandfather was gassed at Ypres, he survived. My mother said her mother told her, he went away a strapping young handsome man, and came home a gasping old man, he never worked again! They struggled in poverty for most of their lives. I have tried to find him in all sorts of sites and links but I am not very good at this and I am all over the place going round in circles. He was from Blackburn Lancashire, he may have been in the Lancashire Fusiliers and his name was William Albert Bibby...or just William, or just Albert. My mother has dementia now and doesn't remember things fully. Could anyone help please?
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Name: William Albert Bibby
Military Year: 1914-1920
Rank: Private
Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps: East Lancashire Regiment
Regimental Number: 35040
Previous Units: 1/4th. E. Lan. R. 2736 Pte., 9th. E. Lan. R. 35040
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Name: William Albert Bibby
Gender: Male
Document Year: 1914
Residence Place: 13 Eccles St, Blackburn
Regimental Number: 2736
Regiment Name: HS Bn E Lanc Regiment
Number of Images: 4
Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
William Albert Bibby Self (Head)
Elizabeth Bibby Wife
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Hello and welcome :)
Who did he marry? There is a record, sallyorks has posted that but I am not sure that is him re Ypres.
Heywood
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Hello and welcome :)
Who did he marry? There is a record, sallyorks has posted that but I am not sure that is him re Ypres.
Heywood
Why not 're Ypres'?
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The record shows him at home 1914 -15 and then Egypt. No mention of Ypres that’s why I am not sure but don’t know.
I just thought it might be best to start with a marriage etc as jan21 isn’t sure of his name.
I hope the one you have is him, it would be good to have a record.
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There is a William Albert Bibby with wife Elizabeth, living in Blackburn 3 years before the outbreak of war. He is a 'coal miner/hewer', born Rishton, Lancashire 1887. Elizabeth born same year, in Blackburn, a cotton weaver
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The 1911 census William Albert born 1887 married Elizabeth Driver in 1910, they had three children between 1913 and 1919. 2376 William Albert was born in 1887 and discharged in 1919 medical category A1 although he did have bowel problems and bronchitis. Place of birth for both is Rishton and occupation for both is miner. (He also fathered an illegitimate child in 1908 with another Elizabeth)
Would seem to suggest that these two are the same man but is he one we are hoping to find given that he was A1 when discharged and served in different theatre of war?
That said, unfortunately "gassed at Ypres" or "wounded on the Somme" tend to be expressions heard a lot that have been passed down the generations and are sometimes found not to be the case. Recently on this forum a man "wounded on the Somme" was actually fighting 200 miles further north. I mention this, not to belittle a man's service, but to suggest that if the William Albert is the right one, then could the bronchitis have turned into gassing by a chinese whispers process?
Jan21 - the children of William and Elizabeth were Joseph, Albert and Leah - do they accord with the next generation down?
MaxD
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Thanks MaxD
I did notice the bronchitis and wondered about that which is why I was cautious when I could only see Egypt. I have a feeling the records also discounted the bronchitis as not being relevant :-\
Heywood
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:) :) Thank you soooooo much all of you. How wonderful. Firstly, you found him, but you may also have found my uncle Bill, his son. The William Albert Bibby, was from Rishton as you found, and the bronchitis could have been from his days in the pit, but mum was adamant it was the war. He had a son William Albert Bibby who was in Egypt also and the story I have been given is that he was a seargent major, and that he was at one time in the military police and he was in charge of Nazi officers prisoner of war camps in 2nd world war. But back to my grandfather from Rishton, I am delighted that you have given me these informations, he was married to Elizabeth driver and so I know that that one is correct...but, you have mentioned an illegitimate child and I am so fascinated and happy to know more with that one please if you have it. I am new to this so don't know how to reply to each one of you, so I am posting this in the hope that the person who found the info on the William Albert Bibby from Rishton, and the illegitimate story please will you get in touch. Lastly..do any of you wonderful people have any photos of him in any of your researches. Thank you xxx
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The 1911 census William Albert born 1887 married Elizabeth Driver in 1910, they had three children between 1913 and 1919. 2376 William Albert was born in 1887 and discharged in 1919 medical category A1 although he did have bowel problems and bronchitis. Place of birth for both is Rishton and occupation for both is miner. (He also fathered an illegitimate child in 1908 with another Elizabeth)
Would seem to suggest that these two are the same man but is he one we are hoping to find given that he was A1 when discharged and served in different theatre of war?
That said, unfortunately "gassed at Ypres" or "wounded on the Somme" tend to be expressions heard a lot that have been passed down the generations and are sometimes found not to be the case. Recently on this forum a man "wounded on the Somme" was actually fighting 200 miles further north. I mention this, not to belittle a man's service, but to suggest that if the William Albert is the right one, then could the bronchitis have turned into gassing by a chinese whispers process?
Jan21 - the children of William and Elizabeth were Joseph, Albert and Leah - do they accord with the next generation down?
MaxD
I still think it possible he was at Ypres
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That is great news. I am really pleased for you. :)
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The information about the illegitimate child comes from his service record. The lady was Elizabeth Younger Milroy of Rishton, the child born 8 Nov 1908 and the order for maintenance made in December 1908. The army record of it is all dated in March 1915 so whether he didn't pay up straight away - who knows.
The reason Ypres was discounted was because the entries on his record, which are quite clear, show service in UK, Egypt and the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force which at the time recorded was also Egypt. From these it was possible to cross check to battalions who served in those places.
BUT - I should have looked more closely at the service record and particularly at the medal records.
In March 1915 when the child paperwork was generated he was in 2/4th Battalion in Southport. He was with them later in May 1915 in Sussex. His medal record shows he served overseas with 1/4th Battalion and with 9th Battalion. The 9th were in Salonika and 1/4th were at Gallipoli and later Egypt BUT served in France from early 1917.
I'm sorry this is full of numbers but essentially, his written record does not include France. If he was with 1/4th after the move from Egypt then the possibility of being gassed in France/Flanders does exist. It is a bit peculiar that his discharge record shows him as A1 medical category which means that, at least according to the medics, if he had been gassed, it didn't affect him.
As to where he was gassed, that cannot be established. Given the mis-match between his record and his medal records we can't be sure where he was and when. There were five major engagements, Oct/Nov 16, Apr/May 15, Jul/Nov 17 (Passchendaele), Apr 18 (Lys) and Sep/Oct 18 which became called the 1st, 2nd etc battles of Ypres. Ypres was held by the allies from Oct 1914 and the salient was under constant attack by shell and gas outside the major engagements too.
In sum, his records are a mess so while one can guess at the sequence of his service, the next person may come up with another idea! Suffice to say that the family story of being gassed in France/Flanders does look a possibility - evidence though cannot be found - but who needs it!
MaxD
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:D So, now I know his war record, he really did do a lot of fighting, for most of the war, probably was at Ypres, and Gallipoli , and I remembered something as soon as I saw the Gallipoli link from MaxD, ..my mum could always recite the Maori 'oka' ( I don't know how you say or spell it), and she said her father learned it from a New Zealand soldier when he was in the army. He obviously told his little daughter, she has learned it off by heart and used to recite it to us. So there is truth in his being with a New Zealand soldier in Gallipoli, and he was in Egypt, and Ypres. His medical A1 release, doesn't surprise me, as he was a very strong guy my mum said he was a tall strapping handsome man, he would have made out he was better than he was. He developed very bad chest problems and couldn't work after. But all those years of fighting and war, away from family and home, how they stood it I will never know. Before I found out all this, the first world war always touched me deeply, even though all wars are terrible, that one struck at my heart. Maybe my grandfathers experience was with me. And now, thanks to you lot on here, I have a new 'skeleton in the cupboard' legacy from him...the illegitimate child! Cant wait to find out. Thank you again, you have encouraged me to learn more about researching, and not give up (I am rubbish on the computer). love and peace people xxx
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Elizabeth younger milroy born 1884 Blackburn
Jennifer
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Looking at the GRO Index for the illegitimate child, this one jumps out as a possible.
Stanley Milroy
born Dec Q 1908, Blackburn
Volume 08E Page 310
There is a dash where the mother's maiden name should be, suggesting an illegitimate birth
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Death record of Stanley Milroy
Dec Q 1995 Hyndburn and Rossendale, Lancs
Birth date 8th Nov 1908 - matches the date MaxD found on the service record
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Looking at the GRO Index for the illegitimate child, this one jumps out as a possible.
Stanley Milroy
born Dec Q 1908, Blackburn
Volume 08E Page 310
There is a dash where the mother's maiden name should be, suggesting an illegitimate birth
Here is Stanley, with Elizabeth in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4M5-X78
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Hi Jan, I think we can trace Stanley's family to the present day, just need to be careful not to mention anyone possibly still living. In chronological order...
Marriage Dec Q 1929, Blackburn
Stanley Milroy & Maria Foy
8e 741 (FreeBMD)
Birth Frank Milroy (mother's maiden name Foy)
June Q 1930, Blackburn
8e 467 (FreeBMD)
Marriage March Q 1973, Blackburn
Frank Milroy & Edna Shaw (both now deceased)
10B 682
Another later marriage for a Stanley Milroy (not sure if he's yours?)
Sep Q 1981, Blackburn
40 149
I won't mention the bride as she may still be alive given the marriage date. (see FreeBMD)
Frank Milroy's obit, mentioning his late wife Edna. Also mentions his step daughters and spouses.
Died 6th July 2016 :'(
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/14610237.Frank_Milroy/
There is a telephone number for the funeral directors, should you wish to contact them and ask them to pass on your contact details to the family.