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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: scuda-j on Tuesday 14 November 17 15:50 GMT (UK)
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I am helping a colleague research her family tree, and her family seems to be very elusive. William George Fishwick born to John and Mary (nee Dooley) in 1852 in Manchester is with his family in 1861 (Oswald Street, Manchester), and then goes missing until his death in 1892 (occupation picture frame maker). If I have the right man he married Mary Ellen Disley in 1874, but I can't find them or their children (Eliza Ann and Mary Ellen) in censuses - the girls were somewhere, because they married in 1895 and 1904 respectively.
Also where were John and Mary Fishwick in 1871? I believe they both died later in the 1870s, so they should be somewhere. The 1861 census for them is http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l20/
Can anyone help, please? I am not used to research in Lancashire (although I am aware of Lancs opc and Lancs BMD), and don't have a general picture of the geography in my mind, which doesn't help with tracing difficult people.
Thanks for looking.
Jane
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Also where were John and Mary Fishwick in 1871? I believe they both died later in the 1870s, so they should be somewhere. The 1861 census for them is http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l20/
For those without an Ancestry sub to view the 1861 link
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7FP-MR1
(John Ansian Fishwick is actually John Austin Fishwick ;) )
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What address does the 1892 death certificate give
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Hi John A and family are on RG11/4006/58/55 In 1881?
Keyboard86
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What address does the 1892 death certificate give
Don't have the death cert, but the burial register at Philips Park Cemetery says he was from the Poorhouse, Cheetham. The age there, and on the death registration is 42, which is low, but the occupation of Picture Frame Maker tallies with the information given by his daughters when they married.
Jane
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Hi just bumping this up, having problems as you have found re William George b 1852 onwards until death, thought I would trace the children of the John A to see if it leads anywhere, cannot locate George 1873 Mary A 1878 and Elizabeth 1880 in 1891, back in 1901
RG13/3741/140/18, Mary A marries a William Kerwin both siblings with them in 1911
Keyboard86
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Hi all this is driving me nuts, surely a family cannot in the case of Eliza Ann Fishwick b 1875 and Mary Ellen Fishwick b 1878 disappear until their marriages 2nd January 1895 (Eliza Ann Fishwick to Thomas Gordon Manchester St John )
Father William occ Picture Frame Maker.
Mary Ellen Fishwick to John Phair 13th March 1904, Hulme St George
Father William George Fishwick ( Deceased) occ Picture Frame Maker
Keyboard86
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Hi all this is driving me nuts, surely a family cannot in the case of Eliza Ann Fishwick b 1875 and Mary Ellen Fishwick b 1878 disappear until their marriages ....
Keyboard86
I admitted defeat and threw in the towel early on. It's probably landed in the fishpond. (Excuse moi, I've been "Aux Barricacades" with RC Panto cast and it's hard to shake off.)
Might the girls' names have been the other way around on a census?
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Is this anything like?
1881 census. 20 Cooper St. Salford.
William Fish 28 b. Manchester, picture framer
Elizabeth, wife, 27, b. M/c
Joseph , son, 3
Eliza 1
Martha 1 month
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;) Good try, but?
The Martha Fishwick on the 1861 marries a Frederick Hewitt 23rd February 1884 Manchester, St Michael address 2, Lydia Street Father John occ Time Keeper
Keyboard86
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;) Good try, but?
The Martha Fishwick on the 1861 marries a Frederick Hewitt 23rd February 1884 Manchester, St Michael address 2, Lydia Street Father John occ Time Keeper
Keyboard86
???
I posted 1881 census and the Martha on that was a baby. ( Thought her name may have been an error for Mary. Clutching at straws in fishpond.)
Did they go abroad to learn more about picture framing perhaps?
Did he change his occupation at all during his life?
He should have been on electoral register in 1880s- 1892 somewhere, probably.
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Thanks for the latest ideas. I don't have time to check them out today, but I'll look tomorrow.
Jane
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;) Good try, but?
The Martha Fishwick on the 1861 marries a Frederick Hewitt 23rd February 1884 Manchester, St Michael address 2, Lydia Street Father John occ Time Keeper
Keyboard86
???
I posted 1881 census and the Martha on that was a baby. ( Thought her name may have been an error for Mary. Clutching at straws in fishpond.)
Did they go abroad to learn more about picture framing perhaps?
Did he change his occupation at all during his life?
He should have been on electoral register in 1880s- 1892 somewhere, probably.
Hi, Martha Fish on 1881 has mmn Regan, their is a marriage William Fish to on same page Elizabeth Regan 1875 Manchester
When Frederick Hewitt married Martha Fishwick he was a Widower, family at Groom Street, Manchester in 1891
Census ref RG12/3245/43/16
Keyboard86
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Hi their is a Martha Fishwick aged 24 Single/Pauper occ Winder in Cotton Mill b Manchester in Manchester Workhouse, Crumpsall in 1881 census
Census ref RG11/4027/19/34
Keyboard86
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Hi again, something I recall re John A and Spear Street gives this family as boarders pob NK
John FISKIRKE 57
Mary 49
William 18
Martha 14
Residing at 5, Spear Street, Manchester in 1871 census
Census ref RG10/4046/34/25
TESKIRKS on Anc****
Keyboard86
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Did they go abroad to learn more about picture framing perhaps?
Did he change his occupation at all during his life?
William Fishwick gave his occupation as picture frame maker in 1874 when he married Mary Ellen Disley, and it was the same in the burial register and the marriages of his two daughters.
Jane
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John FISKIRKE 57
Mary 49
William 18
Martha 14
Residing at 5, Spear Street, Manchester in 1871 census
Census ref RG10/4046/34/25
TESKIRKS on Anc****
I think this could well be William with his parents and younger sister. The entries all seem like guesswork on the part of the householder, so no birthplaces or occupations for confirmation (or otherwise).
Thanks keyboard86 - I think you may have solved the missing 1871 entry. Also I think you're correct that Martha was in the workhouse in 1881.
Now I really would like to find William, wife and children in 1881 and 1891 ........ anyone?
Jane
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Well found keyboard :)
Jane,
You said on your first post that you thought John & Mary had died in the 1870's - do you have any death entries backing this up or was it just because you could not find them in 1881.
Rosie
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Possibles from GRO index
FISHWICK, MARY age 49
1873 March Quarter - MANCHESTER RD Volume 08D Page 271
FISHWICK, JOHN age 62
1875 June Quarter - MANCHESTER RD Volume 08D Page 186
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Yes Rosie, those are the deaths I'm looking at, although I don't have certs. I've found the burial for John Fishwick at Philips Park Cemetery, 62, a labourer, of 42 Leigh Street, Ancoats (?? - definitely begins with A). In the earlier censuses John was a Time Keeper at a cotton factory, but I suppose he may have turned to labouring later.
I can't see a burial for Mary, but the death you mention is the only likely looking one I've spotted.
Jane
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Hi still looking for William George b 1852 and family, but just tidying up the family of John Austin Fishwick in the hope it could lead somewhere:-
John Austin Fishwick died March qtr 1885 Manchester 8d 145 aged 34
Mary Ann Fishwick died March qtr 1882 Manchester 8d 140 aged 31
Possibly daughter Elizabeth Fishwick aged 11 shown as Orphan in Catholic Sisters Home
Census ref RG12/3268/51/9
Keyboard86
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John Austin Fishwick died March qtr 1885 Manchester 8d 145 aged 34
Mary Ann Fishwick died March qtr 1882 Manchester 8d 140 aged 31
I'm wondering whether it might be worth getting John's death cert, in the hope that another family member (preferably brother William) was the informant. Or am I clutching at straws?
Jane
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What address does the 1892 death certificate give
Don't have the death cert, but the burial register at Philips Park Cemetery says he was from the Poorhouse, Cheetham. The age there, and on the death registration is 42, which is low, but the occupation of Picture Frame Maker tallies with the information given by his daughters when they married.
Jane
Hi again, just checking, is this the same William Fishwick:-
Death William Fishwick March qtr 1892 Prestwich 8d 263 aged 39 not 42?
Also have you located Mary Ellen Disley prior to marriage and her death, the two children Eliza Ann b 1875 and Mary Ellen b 1878 have mmn Disley
Keyboard86
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Hi again, as I could not find a reasonable death for Mary Ellen Fishwick, I located a possible remarriage for her to a Bernard Healy June qtr 1898 Salford 8d 245, they moved to Toxteth Park in Liverpool, Bernard 56 b Liverpool Mary ( Ellen) 45 b Manchester
Census ref RG13/3426/149/35
Keyboard86
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just checking, is this the same William Fishwick:-
Death William Fishwick March qtr 1892 Prestwich 8d 263 aged 39 not 42?
Very sorry, that's alerted me to a typo in my first post - the year should be 1898 (Q1 1898 Prestwich)
Also have you located Mary Ellen Disley prior to marriage and her death
No, I haven't found her at all. According to the marriage cert her father was Edward Disley, a fishmonger. I've found his marriage to Hannah Lloyd at Manchester Cathedral in 1849, and the birth of Mary Ellen Disley mmn Lloyd in Salford Q1 1853.
I have found Edward (born Manchester) and Hannah (born Birmingham) together in 1851, with no sign of their son Edward who was born on 22nd March according to the baptism entry (13th April). I haven't found the family in either 1861 or 1871.
Jane
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Hi re the Disley family after 1851, in 1861 an E D 33 married occ Fish Dealer b Manchester is a Prisoner in Wakefield, Yorkshire
Census ref RG09/3423/67/6
Found him again I think aged 51 b Stretford as a boarder/Fishmonger
Census ref RG11/4004/89/10
Keyboard86
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Well found, Keyboard86, E D in 1861 must be him: I've found Edward Disley being sentenced to 4 years imprisonment at the Manchester Quarter Sessions in August 1860.
You're right with the 1881, too, I should think - married, but not with his wife.
I'm off to look for his wife and child(ren) in 1861.
Jane
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Well, I think I've found Edward Disley's wife Hannah in 1861, but not his daughter Mary Ellen. I think Hannah is living with in Aston, Birmingham as the wife of William Cornick. The eldest child with them, Edward Cornick, seems to be Edward Disley, but the births of the three younger ones were registered as Cornick (or variants), mmn Lloyd, the first as early as 1855.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l2b/
RG09/2173/38/28
William & Hannah were married in Birmingham in 1866, with Hannah Disley calling herself a widow (definitely the lady who married Edward Disley, as her father is Thomas Lloyd in each case - a button maker in one, button presser in the other).
So Mary Ellen Disley (born 1853) is somewhere else - at school, with grandparents?
Jane
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Hi again, looks like Hannah has remarried by 1871 census, Aston to a Joseph Williams, CORNOCK children with them.
Census ref RG10/3138/5/3
Once again Hannah waited a while to marry Joseph Williams:-
Joseph Williams to on same page Hannah Cornock March qrr 1890 Aston 6d 378
It was Joseph Williams Single aged 40 Father Joseph Williams to Hannah CORNACK 50 Widow Father Thomas Lloyd
8th February 1890 Christchurch Sparksbrook
Keyboard86
EDIT Where and for what reason were Edward Disley b 1851 in 1851 and Mary Ellen Disley b 1853 in 1861 and in fact until marriage to William Fishwick?
Still would like to know who the Mary Ellen Fishwick was who married Bernard Healy, I know he was possibly a Widower?
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just checking, is this the same William Fishwick:-
Death William Fishwick March qtr 1892 Prestwich 8d 263 aged 39 not 42?
Very sorry, that's alerted me to a typo in my first post - the year should be 1898 (Q1 1898 Prestwich)
Mention of Prestwich reminds me. Did you check out Prestwich Asylum? There was a W H H, picture framer, born 1850s, among approx. 2000 inmates.
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Hi, My colleague has just unearthed a copy of William George Fishwick's death certificate. He died on 17 February 1898 at Manchester Workhouse, described as "picture framer of 66 Pump Street". Does the address help at all?
Jane
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William George Fishwick is buried in Philips park cemetery.
Buried on 22nd Feb 1898, abode: Poorhouse, Cheetham.
Age: 42.
Occupation: Picture frame maker.
Buried in Church of England section.
Grave NO: M-286
Grave type: Communal.
Mary :)
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Thanks Mary, but that's the info I posted in #4 when I thought we didn't have the death cert. I think the only potential extra clue in the death cert is the 66 Pump Street address.