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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jaynef on Tuesday 14 November 17 15:58 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if someone can help...
My husbands great grandmother was called Gladys Kay born 1904...Parents were Sarah and Emanuel Sandiford...
I am to believe that Sarah is Nancy Fish Barnum sister..she was born around 1880 and Nancy was born in 1825...their parents are John and Martha Fish (Shaw)...
The Family were from Lancashire..
I have no other information as I am not trying to complete a family tree, I am just asking in general if anyone knows about this family...
I know that once Barnum had died Nancy went on to marry 2 more times...
If anyone can shed some light or know anything about Sarah and Nancy I would be grateful
Thank you
Jayne
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Hi are you sure bout those two birth dates of 1880 for Sarah and 1825 for her sister Nancy. Thats an awfully large gap between siblings.
Pheno
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Emmanuel Sandiford married Sarah Walsh in 1900 in Ashton under Lyne. Gladys' birth was registered in Ashton under Lyne mother's maiden name Walsh.
I doubt that Sarah and Nancy are sisters the age gap is huge.
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thats what we were confused about..but my mother in law does assure me that her sister was Nancy Fish...my mother in law has pictures and information regarding Nancy Barnum..
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thats fine thank you...its confusing as we do have information regarding Nancy Barnum...wondering if they were step sisters...
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I think I will need to find more information...
It could perhaps be a relation on this grandfathers family rather than grandmothers family....
But thank you for your help and confirming that her maiden name was Walsh..
I may be back for more info once I have found which side of the family she comes from
:o
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On another site Nancy Fish Barnum is said to have been born in 1850 the daughter of John Fish a Manchester Mill owner.
I would suggest you need to track back in the family to Gladys and get her birth certificate and then her parents marriage certificate to see if there are any Fish connections.
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There is only one possible marriage that I can see of a Nancy Fish to a Barnum
Phineas Taylor Barnum to Nancy Fish - March Qtr 1874 Strand 1b 688 - On FreeBMD there is a note added to the marriage
"The American circus owner. married Nancy Fish who was born in Darwen, Lancashire he was 60 and she was 30 (ages I was told and was also told after she was widowed she married a French Marquis)" :-\
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I know I was even speaking to my mother in law and she said the age gap between Barnum and Nancy is very big...I will need to find the Fish connection...as I was also told that sarah father owned cotton Mills....will need to go and find out the Fish connection...I think mother in law may still have Gladys birth and marriage certificates...
thank you ???
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some details of a marriage in New York Sep 16th 1874
eg
Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser 2nd Oct 1874
"Marriage of a Barnum to a Southport Lady"
Excerpts
"P T Barnum the showman had caught a pretty English Fish"
"Miss Nancy Fish, a young lady of 26 summers, daughter of Mr John Fish of Southport, a retired manufacturer of Lancashire"
" Mr Barnum was a widower of one year and aged 64".
Cathy
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Sarah's parents were William Walsh and Elizabeth née Shaw, so there may be a connection further back than your family story has it.
Sarah was born in Ramsbottom, and shows up with her parents in 1881 in Walmersley cum Shuttleworth. Elizabeth has children from an earlier marriage named Chadwick.
Elizabeth Shaw married John Chadwick in 1853 in Manchester. sorry, I think it is probably the one in 1859 in Bury (their eldest child was born 1861)
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Thats great!! That could be my connection...I will need to check back....but the names are the same..as Martha maiden name was Shaw
thank you for that information...I will probably need to go furthur back as you suggested, but gives me a springboard..
:D
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Marriage 21 April 1845 at Holy Trinity, Hoghton
John Fish bachelor weaver of Wheelton s/o John Fish brewer
Martha Shaw spinster of Wheelton d/o Edward Shaw engineer
Martha Fish in 1851 gives her birthplace as Over Darwen
I can't find Elizabeth Shaw's marriage to John Chadwick, other than on the civil registration index. However she appears with her parents Edward and Jane in 1851, both of whom were born in Over Darwen. Edward is a machine engineer.
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I think this is the 1871 showing Martha,Nancy and Jane together:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBNY-2RQ
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;D
thats showing my connection....thank you....
Thank you all for your help...
Thats great :D
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There are photographs of them on an online tree.
Jennifer
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I have pics of nancy...but where would i find the photos on the online tree..please
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Somebody has a tree on ancestry.
Jennifer
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Have found them now ...thank you :)
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...as I was also told that sarah father owned cotton Mills....
Is this the right Sarah Walsh on 1881 census?
Kenyon St., Ramsbottom
Sarah aged 1, born in Ramsbottom. She was with parents, William, 27, b. Ramsbottom & Elizabeth, 43 b. Manchester + brother, Christopher, 2 POB Nuttall (now part of Ramsbottom). William was a cotton weaver. 5 Chadwick step-children were in the household. 2 were born in Bury and the younger 3 in Doncaster. Some of the step-children were also cotton weavers. There were mills on Kenyon Street and practically everyone living on the street at the time of the census worked in a cotton mill. There is no indication on the census that William was an employer. Judging from the 1881 census, they seemed to have been an ordinary mill-worker's family. I could not see the family on a later census. The surname could be Walch and Welsh on various records.
1861 census. 6 year-old William Walsh was with his parents, Thomas & Nancy + brother, Christopher (10) in Nuttall village. This again, at the time, was a site of mills. Thomas was a calico block printer.
1871 census. William, 16, with mother, Nancy + brother, Christopher in Union St., Ramsbottom. No Thomas. All were cotton weavers. Union St. is a small back street near the railway station, a stone's throw from Kenyon St. across the river.
Christopher's and William's births were registered in 1851 & 1854 at Holcombe, mother's maiden name Spencer.
Likely marriage of their parents was at St. Mary Virgin, Bury 1st Jan 1850.
Thomas Walsh, printer of Ramsbottom to Nancy Spencer, a minor of Nuttall Lane. Both made their mark. Father of Thomas was Lot Walsh, printer. Nancy's father was Thomas Spencer, weaver. A witness had the unusual name of Ottiwell Cronkshaw. (The surname is locally common)
Likely baptism of Thomas:
1827 Emmanuel, Holcombe. Thomas Walch, son of Lot & Sally. Abode Ramsbottom. Occupation calico printer.
Lot and Sally had another 9 children baptised at Holcombe 1815-1830. The last one was baptised, aged 3 weeks on the same day her father Lot was buried, aged 47. :(
Marriage of Lot Walch to Sally Kay, 1815, St. Mary Virgin, Bury.
Lot's baptism may have been at St. James, Darwen 1785, parents John & Nancy. Abode Over Darwen.
A possible mill-owning connection to consider is the family of Nancy Spencer, Thomas Walsh's mother. A partnership which owned several mills in the area was Porritt & Spencer. I have no knowledge as to whether Nancy Spencer and her father, Thomas were related to that Spencer.
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Thats great information Thank you...As I mentioned before I have yet to find out more of the family from my mother in law....I was led to think that the Sarah we have was Nancy sister, but looking into it a little more am thinking maybe they were cousins...Sarahs maiden name was Walsh..and she married an Emmanuel Sandiford....Martha Fish was Shaw,, and Sarahs mother I think was called Shaw before she married...Marthas Father John Fish was a mill owner.....The family did originate from Blackburn area...I will need to look back properly on the family to find the connections....
Thank you... ;)
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I think that is most definately the Sarah I am looking for...she was born in Ramsbottom....I do need to confirm that is her parents name..although I think it is correct..
Thank you ;)
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Thank you to you that helped with Nancy and Sarah...I have now found that Nancy Fish Barnum and Sarah Walsh were cousins..there mothers were sisters..
;D