RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: viddavid on Thursday 16 November 17 12:33 GMT (UK)
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Re: BAPTISM in the parish of St.John Richmond Surrey England in 1865
When baptised :1865 June 4th. Born 1864 June 17th.
Childs name :Arthur
Parents name : Elizabeth TIMMIS & (blank)
Abode : Lewis Place
Quality Trade Profession : Single woman.
Any information about either of these two people would be very welcome. They are a big crack in a large wall :)
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Perhaps if you tell us what you know about them then we can see what else we can find. That way we don't duplicate what you have
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You have an earlier post on this couple
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=412504.
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I have theories, rumours and guesses but after many years I am now only interested in facts and sources. I've seen the light :)
I can find no paper trace of this Elizabeth TIMMIS in Richmond with a son Arthur. No birth certificate for Arthur.
I have a DNA match with a person who has an Elizabeth TIMMIS in his tree.
My grandfather Arthur ROBINS was allegedly born in Richmond in 1864 but there is no trace of him before 1871. He was then in Stafford with his younger brother Ernest who was born in Warwickshire.Again no trace before 1871.
There is an Elizabeth TIMMIS single woman who gave birth to an Ernest in Warwickshire.
There are many families named TIMMIS in Staffordshire.
Lewis Place was demolished to make way for the A316 Great Chertsey Road.
So I'm looking for a hint,clue,idea from the power of the people on Rootschat into this particular couple in Richmond Surrey .
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No birth certificate for Arthur.
TIMMIS, ARTHUR
No mother's maiden surname so probably illegitimate.
GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in RICHMOND SURREY Volume 02A Page 246
Debra :)
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You have an earlier post on this couple
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=412504.
Yes indeed. The post is marked "Completed". I was wrong. It's a lesson to us all. Sources, sources, sources. Eight years on and I'm still looking .
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And
TIMMIS, ERNEST MMN -
GRO Reference: 1866 S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 128
My grandfather Arthur ROBINS was allegedly born in Richmond in 1864 but there is no trace of him before 1871. He was then in Stafford with his younger brother Ernest who was born in Warwickshire.
Who are they with? Will read other thread now...
ADDED: Ah I see both those birth registrations were found before.
FURTHER ADDED:
1871 RG10; Piece: 2819; Folio: 86; Page: 9
William Thompson 60 Bookkeeper b Norfolk Upwell
Martha Thompson 44
Frederick Wm Thompson 21 solicitor's general clerk
Ann M Thompson 18
above 3 born Cambs, Wisbech
Pheobe M Shargool 17 boarder b Stafford
Arthur Robins 6 boarder b Riochmond
Ernest Robins 4 boarder b Birmingham
Dora Shelley 21 gen servant
John Deacon 38 lodger salesman
Emma Deacon 33
I think the most likely explanation [expounded on other thread] is that William Austin either didn't want the boys or didn't know about them. Strange Elizabeth''s daughter was welcome though. The fact that the boys are boarders could mean the Thompsons were paid to look after them - a common practice.
First thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=290936.0
As you say, the name change is intriguing; have you looked at workhouse admission records for Birmingham ca 1867?
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So Elizabeth married in 1874 to John Bayley TIMMIS and then she died in 1876, is that correct?
When Arthur ROBINS married what information did he give about his father?
Debra :)
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Given in the first thread, Dundee. Some back reading required although rosie99 did ask for all known info....
Arthurs marriage certificate has a penciled note " Fathers christian name not known , William ? ". Ernests first marriage certificate has father " Thomas ROBINS" occupation grocer. His second marriage has father named Arthur William
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I read the last thread but not the one before that ::)
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Yes, I only just found it myself ;)
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Sorry Dundee & Josie, I thought it was mentioned in the thread I linked :-\
I have to confess I did not read it in full as I was waiting for a reply to my first post and was thinking it was a Surrey area query
Rosie
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Sorry Dundee & Josie, I thought it was mentioned in the thread I linked :-\
It was Rosie, but I didn't follow it up till later :-[.
ADDED: I note there are some references to Workhouse records as I asked in reply #6
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Hello all. Thanks for all your replies. The links span many years on here . It would be a very long post to detail every nook and cranny I've explored in that time. Ignoring all that has gone before I'm just concentrating on this one baptism on this post. As you see " Arthur " was born in Richmond one year before he was baptised in Richmond. Sorry Josie to mislead you re birth record (I was thinking of Arthur ROBINS ). I'm therefore looking only in Richmond Surrey for records relating to this Elizabeth TIMMIS 1864/5 and Lewis Place which was on Kew Road and is now part of Richmond Circus on the A316 .
I'm just going over old thoughts in the hope someone will pop up and say " Liz, thats my dear old great granny ". It happens :)
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No worries, though sadly not sure you'll ever be sure of why Elizabeth was in Richmond to have Arthur, or the boys had their name changed to Robins without living with a Robins family.
I'm just going over old thoughts in the hope someone will pop up and say " Liz, thats my dear old great granny ". It happens :)
Yes, and it's a marvellous occurrence when it does. I've a few threads on here hoping for the same breakthrough ;)
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Hello all. Thanks for all your replies. The links span many years on here . It would be a very long post to detail every nook and cranny I've explored in that time.
You did not need to list every nook & cranny but just post links to the earlier posts ;D
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Hello all. Thanks for all your replies. The links span many years on here . It would be a very long post to detail every nook and cranny I've explored in that time.
You did not need to list every nook & cranny but just post links to the earlier posts ;D
I was keeping them secret so as not to lead anyone astray. Has anyone come across Lewis Place Richmond before ?
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Lewis Place in 1881
Class: RG11; Piece: 844; Folio: 39; Page: 22
1871
Class: RG10; Piece: 867; Folio: 117; Page: 17
1861
Class: RG 9; Piece: 459; Folio: 122; Page: 22
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra,
You prompted a search.
A clue perhaps from 1861.
John Swingwood
Head
Married
Age 55
Birth year 1806
Occupation Gardener
Birth town Stone
Birth county Staffordshire
Kew Road Lewis Place
Richmond
Surrey
Ecclesiastical district St John
Registration district Richmond upon Thames
Archive reference RG09
Piece number 459
Folio 122
Page number 22
Family member last name Swingwood
Family member first name(s) Rose, Thomas, Richmond, Ann, John
Record set 1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Aaaaarrrrgh next household " Not at home " :o
The Elizabeth TIMMIS that surfaced with my DNA match died in Stone Stafford.
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Lewis Place.There are three abodes 1.2.3. Between 20/30 residents. Multiple families. I notice Rose SWINGWOOD lives there through 1861-81 and becomes a Lodging House Keeper.
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What information does the birth certificate give
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After two more years today I got a match with a possible fourth to sixth cousin...not particularly remarkable...I get these frequently but always on my maternal side. Todays match is only with myself and my brother which is very unusual and I wondered if this was a paternal match.
The matching cousin has a family tree on Ancestry ( I know, treat it with a pinch of salt ) but his great great grandmother was Elizabeth Caroline Louisa TIMMIS......
So Elizabeth married in 1874 to John Bayley TIMMIS and then she died in 1876, is that correct?
John and Elizabeth had twin boys in 1876 and she died later that year. Ralph TIMMIS was with his paternal grandmother Frances TIMMIS in 1881/1891 and Percy Rowland TIMMIS was with his uncle Thomas's family and enumerated as their son. Is your DNA match from Ralph or Percy's family? Have you tried to track down all lines from Elizabeth to see if you are all a match?
I haven't been able to find Elizabeth after 1851 1861 when she was with her father, have you?
Debra :)
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John Bayley TIMMIS married twice more after Elizabeth died and looking at family trees on Ancestry I don't think any of them have quite come to grips with the various relationships.
Debra :)
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Thanks again Rosie and Debra.
Just spent ages looking for the birth certs.They are somewhere safe:)
Debra the DNA match was with Christopher Ventiroso (possible 4th-6th cousin)who has a public tree on Ancestry.
If that's accurate we share 3rd to 5th great grandparent.(I think). He is on Ralphs' line but the match could be way before that.
No I haven't found Elizabeth Caroline Louisa TIMMIS unless this is her 1871 RG/10 2966 number on schedule, 80 as Caroline TIMMIS niece of Thomas & Elizabeth DAY.
I'm not surprised the trees you found are confusing. Timmis marries Timmis etc. and they nearly all live within the same county.
There's another Elizabeth TIMMIS who was sentenced to seven years penal servitude in Stafford in 1876.
That's why I've returned to Richmond 1864 where "Arthur" was born to look for clues. But where do you look beyond GRO and census records ?
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No I haven't found Elizabeth Caroline Louisa TIMMIS unless this is her 1871 RG/10 2966 number on schedule, 80 as Caroline TIMMIS niece of Thomas & Elizabeth DAY.
Yes, I was also looking at her. I think that Elizabeth DAY was Elizabeth Sarah BATE, sister of ECL's mother Caroline.
Debra :)
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You must share DNA with me as Elizabeth Timmis was my great grandmother if she procured Ernest my grandfather.
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I'm just going over old thoughts in the hope someone will pop up and say " Liz, thats my dear old great granny ". It happens :)
You must share DNA with me as Elizabeth Timmis was my great grandmother if she procured Ernest my grandfather.
:) ;)
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I'm just going over old thoughts in the hope someone will pop up and say " Liz, thats my dear old great granny ". It happens :)
You must share DNA with me as Elizabeth Timmis was my great grandmother IF she procured Ernest my grandfather.
??? :-\
But the exciting thing is it's another DNA test which might throw some light on our shared concrete wall
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You must share DNA with me as Elizabeth Timmis was my great grandmother if she procured Ernest my grandfather.
Ernest was your grandfather and his brother Arthur was my grandfather. Hopefully our combined DNA tests will go some way to finding if Elizabeth Timmis was our shared great grandmother. Which company did you test with ?
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Hello , yes I recall you but it has been a long time.
the DNA which would apply to you too said 52% English, 29.1% celtic- Irish Scottish, Welsh, 18% Scandinavia. I just found out that Elizabeth it registered as Austin in the 1961 census, which means she must have been with him before Ann Arthur and Ernest were born, so how is she listed as a single woman Timmis? unless of course she knew him and borrowed his name, Did you research into his history?
I Have endless 3rd cousins via the DNA test I guess therefore they might be yours too in some way. Do you know of Ernest's child Fred who went to America with Ethel to live in Wisconsin had two children Ernest and Berdie in turn had children Tom and Diane and now I am in touch with Diane their child as a cousin so many times removed. Very nice to hear from you, I think Terry has kept in touch with people and links perhaps you have heard from him ( my brother) regards Gill
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Hello Gill,
Yes I've corresponded with Terry, it's all his fault :) He came up with the name Timmis. Dianes' brother Thomas did a DNA test with the company FTDNA which was a perfect match to me. He is a direct male line to Ernest and I a direct line to Arthur which suggests they were full brothers. Hopefully your DNA test will show more matches. Which company did you use? Ancestry,FTDNA,23&me or someone else ? Are they loaded onto GEDmatch ?
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Yes DNA said 'we are 50% English, 29.1 percent celt vis: Irish, Scottish and Welsh, the remainder Scandinavian. there are more than 3,000 names on there distantly related, that is they say 3rd cousin or more on all of them so far.
I dont know whether this is accessible but I might put the DNA test on facebook my site Gill Mahoney
regards Gill
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I used Myheritage.com
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Elizabeth Timmis had Ernest and Arthur before she married William Austin. I would guess that is why they were dumped because she wanted to marry his and he wouldn't take them on. The father of E and A was 90% certain to be Irish as I am 39% Irish and my father had no Irish blood it had to come through mum and then her father ( granny was Huguenot). Also prior to William austin liz was sharing a house with two Irishmen which could be the source of Ernest and Arthurs father.