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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: William (Bill) Zebedee on Friday 17 November 17 20:36 GMT (UK)
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Good day. I am helping my father-in-law with his family tree and have a brick wall that I am hoping someone might be able to help me with regard his Great Grandfather, John William Thomas. Here's what I know
Born circa 1938 (I believe in Liverpool--though family stories say he may have been the Thomas who came from Wales).
Married Margaret Johanna Godwin (d of Arthur Godwin and Agnes McKenzie Reid) November 15 1866 in Edge Hill, Liverpool, Enlgand
Children
John Arthur Godwin--born Jul 27 1869 in Liverpool, died 1912
Helena--born 1871 in Liverpool (her name is questionable as it appears to be Alline in the 1871 census and Helena in the 1891 census), unknown death
Francis Patrick--born 1874 in Liverpool, d Mar 7 1948 in Accrington
Richard--unknown birth and death
John William, 1871 census shows age of 28, but believe this to be incorrect as the 1861 census shows age of 23. Both census show his birth place as Liverpool
John William is not listed in 1881 census, therefore death between April 2, 1871 and April 3, 1881
John William was Brass Moulder (deceased) on Francis Patrick's marriage certificate.
Lived on 50 Prussia Street in 1861, according to Poll Book and Gore Directory of Liverpool 1853 (which lists him as a tinman and braizer).
Now, here is where I need the assist:
1) Father-in-law says that John William was owner of a factory (from the Gore Directory, it would make sense he was a Brass or Metal factory owner). Is there any history about this, anywhere?
2) The big one is his death. Father-in-law says that John William committed suicide, but cause of death was covered up because he was a "well off factory owner". I have come across a few John Thomas in the Death Registry, but can't find a clear one for this one.
What I am hoping, s that someone may have already done the research and can share with me,.
Thanks
Bill
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Are you sure William married Margaret Johanna Godwin. There is a marriage in 1868 in Liverpool between Margaret Johanna Godwin age 26 (daughter of Arthur Godwin) and Josiah Williams.
Isobel
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Married Margaret Johanna Godwin (d of Arthur Godwin and Agnes McKenzie Reid) November 15 1866 in Edge Hill, Liverpool, Enlgand
The marriage registration just gives Margaret Godwin (no middle name) and John W Thomas.
Have you got the actual marriage certificate?
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John William, 1871 census shows age of 28, but believe this to be incorrect as the 1861 census shows age of 23. Both census show his birth place as Liverpool
Bit of a mix up I think because Margaret Thomas (Godwin) in 1871 is with her mother
and son John A G
Margaret is down as wife of master mariner in China I think it says so a different family if you have your John William in this country in 1871 - is he with wife and 2 little children?
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I agree with Milliepede. Lots of things don't add up. There is a possible death for John William Thomas in March quarter 1873 age 30 ( which would tie in with 1871 census age).
Isobel
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I can't find birth registrations for any of those children apart from the first one.
Is Margaret down as a widow in 1881 with the children?
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Richard--unknown birth and death
Where does he appear?
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There is a family tree with John William - Helena - Frank Patrick - being the children of
John Thomas death 1877 and Margaret Carson marriage 1865
Will stop there for tonight. If we could confirm if the children are correct we can work back from those as either the parents are wrong or the children are.
Hopefully we can marry up the right family eventually!
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there is a baptism of a Francis Patrick Thomas in an RC church in Liverpool, born May 1874. Son of John and Margaret nee McQuaid
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if this is your Francis marriage his father seems to be just John not John William. He does appear to have a brother John William born c1869
Marriage: 10 Sep 1896 St James, Accrington, Lancashire, England
Francis Patrick Thomas - 22, Labourer, Bachelor, 99 Richmond Hill
Emma Bleasdale - 21, Weaver, Spinster, 174 Richmond Hill
Groom's Father: John Thomas, Deceased, Brass Moulder
Bride's Father: Richard Remmington Bleasdale, Labourer
Witness: Albert Brown; Annie Bleasdale
Married by Certificate by: John Procter Petty
Notes: [Groom signed as Francis Pathrick Thomas]
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baptism of Helena (Elena) in Liverpool also shows mmn McQuaid (possibly transcribed in other places as McWade or McQuade)
godparents William Thomas and Catherine McQuaid
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Also found baptism of John William Thomas in 1868-
Joannis Gulielmus Thomas born 27/7/1868, baptism 16/8/1868 son of Joannis Thomas and Margareta McQuaid ( Ancestry index says her name is Quinn but if you look at the original document it clearly says McQuaid). All the children baptised at Our Lady of Reconciliation de la Salette, Liverpool
Marriage of Joannem Thomas and Margaretam McQuade 7/11/1865 at St Joseph, Liverpool
His parents - Gulielm and Maria
Her parents - Eugene and Eliz
Isobel
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There is also a Maria Elizabetha born 9th September 1866 in same church. Parents John and Margarita ( Ancestry have indexed her surname as McSoane but it definitely says mcQuaid in the original).
Isobel
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Now, that's interesting. Yes, John William and Margaret were married on November 15 1866 in Edge Hill, Liverpool. But now you have me curious what the hell is going on with what family history father in law was providing.
Are you sure William married Margaret Johanna Godwin. There is a marriage in 1868 in Liverpool between Margaret Johanna Godwin age 26 (daughter of Arthur Godwin) and Josiah Williams.
Isobel
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Yes, I do have that.
Married Margaret Johanna Godwin (d of Arthur Godwin and Agnes McKenzie Reid) November 15 1866 in Edge Hill, Liverpool, Enlgand
The marriage registration just gives Margaret Godwin (no middle name) and John W Thomas.
Have you got the actual marriage certificate?
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Thanks for that. Clearly I need to have a long chat with my father-in-law, eh?
John William, 1871 census shows age of 28, but believe this to be incorrect as the 1861 census shows age of 23. Both census show his birth place as Liverpool
Bit of a mix up I think because Margaret Thomas (Godwin) in 1871 is with her mother
and son John A G
Margaret is down as wife of master mariner in China I think it says so a different family if you have your John William in this country in 1871 - is he with wife and 2 little children?
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Zebedee_Canada - what is the line you are trying to trace. how is your father- in law related to John (William) Thomas?
Isobel
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That one I can answer...Yes, she is and they are.
I can't find birth registrations for any of those children apart from the first one.
Is Margaret down as a widow in 1881 with the children?
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Those names fit with what I was told. Thanks for finding that, I will make the appropriate changes.
if this is your Francis marriage his father seems to be just John not John William. He does appear to have a brother John William born c1869
Marriage: 10 Sep 1896 St James, Accrington, Lancashire, England
Francis Patrick Thomas - 22, Labourer, Bachelor, 99 Richmond Hill
Emma Bleasdale - 21, Weaver, Spinster, 174 Richmond Hill
Groom's Father: John Thomas, Deceased, Brass Moulder
Bride's Father: Richard Remmington Bleasdale, Labourer
Witness: Albert Brown; Annie Bleasdale
Married by Certificate by: John Procter Petty
Notes: [Groom signed as Francis Pathrick Thomas]
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Father-in-law would be John Thomas' great grand son. What everyone has been finding is certainly interesting (and makes more sense than what I was told). When I approach the subject of the death/suicide I was told it was very hush hush. Maybe some of the information he was told was to help avoid embarassment. I will continue asking.
Zebedee_Canada - what is the line you are trying to trace. how is your father- in law related to John (William) Thomas?
Isobel
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Father-in-law would be John Thomas' great grand son. What everyone has been finding is certainly interesting (and makes more sense than what I was told). When I approach the subject of the death/suicide I was told it was very hush hush. Maybe some of the information he was told was to help avoid embarassment. I will continue asking.
Zebedee_Canada - what is the line you are trying to trace. how is your father- in law related to John (William) Thomas?
Isobel
Can you please give us the names of his father and grandfather as that might help establish whether you are following the correct family. If you definitely link back to John Thomas, Brassfounder, with the three children you named, viz John W, Helena and Francis Patrick, then the the Godwin marriage is wrong.
Isobel
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Thank you everyone for the work, and comments. I have researched the info you provide, and am more confident that it is correct. Never believed in-law's as it brought them back to the last King of Ireland