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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: half-spanish on Saturday 18 November 17 15:55 GMT (UK)
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There is a big mystery in my ancestry as to how my grandparents met and married. In 1908 my grandmother Annie Wyatt married my grandfather Ivor Wyatt. Yes, her maiden name was the same as her married name. I am aware that marriage between cousins did take place at that time but have not found any direct family link between these two Wyatt families. Ivor's family are Dorset based, whereas her father originally came from Oxford. Ivor and Annie married and lived in Dorset, but immediately before her marriage - as per the 1901 census - she and her father were "in service" to a retired Indian Civil Servant & Barrister-at-law in Sydenham, Kent. Prior to the 1901 census her family were living in the slums of Forest Hill (she was born there in 1885). It is likely that the family got there "big break" in 1897, as that is when their employer retired back to England. But this is the mystery. As servants they would be unlikely to get sufficient time off to travel down to Dorset to meet her future husband's family and how did they even know of them! Similarly, how did her future husbands family know of a prospective spouse working as a servant in Sydenham - especially as there was also a "class-divide". My grandmother's eventual father-in-law was a self-made man, and Ivor was a master butcher who had his own shop and separate slaughterhouse, not the normal type of husband for a servant born in the slums as per societal rules of that era! Can anyone help me to possibly clear this mystery up?
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Their employer George William Vidal was born in Torrington Devon and his father died in Bath, so there are some connections to the west country through their employer.
Jennifer
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Ivor could have been up to London visiting Smithfield meat market. Not that far across the river to Sydenham .They may have met on a visit to Crystal Palace. Another version Ivor may have been apprenticed to a butcher near places that Annie frequented. He could have just been sightseeing or doing the tour of London as part of his education. Also they may have met in Dorset if her employer entrained with his staff to visit relatives in the area. I don't think you will have much luck finding the real truth of their meeting but good luck with your quest.
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A butcher often had a farm to rear his own and to buy in sufficient numbers of cattle for his business and many businesses usually expanded when sons became old enough. I can see two scenarios for how they met. The junior butcher was sent further afield on business. As mentioned above there is a connection between Dorset cattle and Sydenham, Kent, which meant the area became prosperous, thus drawing in people who needed feeding:- (Genuki) "The formation of Sydenham Park, and the removal hither of the Crystal Palace, from Hyde Park, in October, 1851, upon the close of the great International Exhibition, tended much to the improvement of the neighbourhood."
Alternatively, the bride could have moved to Dorset for a better paid position. My gt. grandmother born about the same time moved from one county to Derbyshire where I found her as a young servant, then in the next census she had moved to the north east to look after the children of a doctor, which is where she met my gt.grandfather.
A third option is; she fleetingly met a handsome young man, they corresponded and eventually married. Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh - it was meeee :D
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Thank you Rena for your comments. There is a possibility in both scenarios. Ivor's father did originally have a butchers shop but he sold up about 1902 as he seems to have gone in for property development. He originally had the shop (with a house above) plus his own large Victorian house (built about 1890) - the kind that you would expect to have a few servants in. (I have a picture of this large house). When he died in 1923,24 properties are mentioned in his will!
With regard to my grandmother moving down to this area to get a better position. There were certainly enough homes here where servants would be employed, but how would she have found out about a possible position 100 odd miles away! Best wishes, Carlos
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With regard to my grandmother moving down to this area to get a better position. There were certainly enough homes here where servants would be employed, but how would she have found out about a possible position 100 odd miles away! Best wishes, Carlos
Newspapers were full of adverts for domestic staff
Plus there were Domestic Agencies for finding staff / positions
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Thank you Jennifer for your comment. Considering I feel that this time in service to George William Vidal and his family is important in my Grandmother's life story, I have been finding out as much about him as possible. Best wishes, Carlos
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Thank you Marmalady for your comment. Would a Coachman buy a newspaper!? Best wishes, Carlos
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Staff may or may not buy their own newspapers, but they would certainly have access to those bought by their employer
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Although she was listed as a servant in 1901 it is possible she was not working for George Vidal.
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Thank you Marmalady for your comment. Would a Coachman buy a newspaper!? Best wishes, Carlos
I have an 18th century coachman in my famiiy. The coachman worked in London and his bride was born nearly 200 miles away. They married in London and their first child was born in the bride's home town hundreds of miles away and on the baptism record there is a note stating the father's occupation and abode. They met in the late 1700s because her employer owned two houses, one house was in the country and one was in London. It is not unusual for rich people to own several homes, which are usually situated in the places where they have a commercial interest - for example the man might own a couple of factories producing clothing - cotton and woollen clothing need different types of water, thus he might open up a factory in an area where there is soft water for woollens. Quite often some of those houses are closed most of the year and the employer will send some servants to clean the place before his family take up residence.
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Thank you Jennifer for your comment. Considering I feel that this time in service to George William Vidal and his family is important in my Grandmother's life story, I have been finding out as much about him as possible. Best wishes, Carlos
You may find this helps .https://www.badmintonengland.co.uk/text.asp?section=1457§ionTitle=G.W.Vidal#.WhQvBNSLRPM
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Thank you Jennifer for that link to British Badminton. I already have the cartoon and obituary that was published in their magazine, as I was informed of his involvement with that organization upon his retirement by the archivist of Lincolns Inn (the Inn of Court that he was called to the Bar at upon his qualification as a Barrister). Best wishes, Carlos
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Apologies Grandarog if that last post should have been for you. I am still learning! Carlos
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Thank you Rena for that story. I agree an aristocratic family would have both a London home and their country estate, and I see your point about a wealthy industrialist having several homes as well. However George Vidal was neither of these having spent the whole of his working life in the Indian Civil service. Best wishes, Carlos
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Rosie99. I had had thoughts about this, but the fact that she is still living with her family in 1901 indicates that if this was the case it would be with one of George Vidal's near neighbours' - it would be improper for a young lady to be wandering the streets of an upper class neighbourhood like Sydenham, even if it was only too and from her employment.
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Marmalady. If my grandmother moved to the Bournemouth/Poole area because she was successful in obtaining a post in a local house through replying to a newspaper advertisement, what type of newspaper would the advertisement have been placed in in the first instance - something like "The Times" in order for it to be brought to the attention of as many "suitable prospective applicants" as possible! Best wishes, Carlos
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Looking at local & county newspapers around that time lots of them carried advertisements for servants
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Thank you Rosie99 for that comment, but my "logical" mind is saying no to local and regional newspaper advertisements in this case. Placing an advertisement would still have cost the prospective employer family money, so why pay whatever fee many times over to reach a wide audience when you could do it once - maybe at a higher cost for the advertisement - for placement in a national newspaper?! Best wishes, Carlos
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Looking at Situations vacant in The Times for that period the majority of 'household' jobs are for Cooks, Butlers and higher positions in London & the surrounding counties.
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Rosie99. You mention the surrounding counties. Are you just talking counties like Kent, Essex and Middlesex, or also the well known healthy fresh air retreats of the era like Brighton, Bognor, and indeed the Pine scented seaside resort of Bournemouth!? I know for example that a substantial, but not large property about five minutes walk from where I live was owned by a Lord at that era. Also you mention the adverts were for senior staff. I believe the coachman, and to a certain extent the gardener were classed as "senior" staff; which could point to the fact that despite her father still appearing on the electoral role of 1909 and 1910 at the now widowed Cecilia Vidal's home - which she continued to live in right up to her own demise; maybe the whole family had already left their employment with the Vidals'; and obtained a position in the Bournemouth/Poole area by the time of their daughter's (my grandmother) marriage in 1908. Best wishes, Carlos
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Rosie99. You mention the surrounding counties. Are you just talking counties like Kent, Essex and Middlesex,
Yes :)
I would think it quite possible that although Thomas was showing on the electoral registers in 1909/1910 Sydenham he was already resident in Poole. If no return for the household was made the records could just 'roll over' to the next year.
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Rosie99. Thank you for that comment. I was not aware of the "rollover possibility" of the electoral register. It has always been the "timing of events in relation to beaurocratic issues" that has made it difficult for me to get some idea - I realise that I will never get the true picture but if I can get a "most likely" scenario! My grandmother was born approximately two years after her parents married. Her mother was the daughter of a boot and shoe manufacturer - so at least she had (as the daughter of a craftsman) a "safe" childhood. They married "by banns" a week after her husband completed his official twelve year service period in the service of Queen and country; he was a corporal in a cavalry regiment. When George Vidal and his family retired back to England in 1897 they would want to employ - as would anyone else - a gentleman who was smart and knew how to look after and use horses for the coachman's role. Obviously an ex cavalryman who had a bit of seniority is an ideal qualification for the post. The property that George Vidal purchased was built about 1871 and was called "The Roccles" - he renamed it "Torrington". A while before he purchased it, it was up for sale and the newspaper advertisement gives it as having 12 bedrooms, stables and a separate two story coach-house; amongst other things. When his widow Cecilia dies, the newspaper advertisement states it has 8 Bedrooms, 3 secondary Bedrooms, Garage, Stables, and a separate two story cottage in the grounds; amongst other things. From this it is obvious that those 12 bedrooms of the earlier advert would have been 8 bedrooms and 4 secondary bedrooms and the 1901 census bears this out for it shows four servants living in the house. The ordnance survey large scale map of the area indicates that at both front and back of the property there is an outside staircase which - given the upstairs/downstairs demarcation of the era - indicates that these servants bedrooms were on the ground floor of the building, and one was converted into the garage at some time! The Coachman and his family are shown on that census as living in "The Stables", which was the only dry place for them as "the Two story coach house at 63 West Hill was all but destroyed by fire in December 1900" as per a newspaper report! So it seems that the separate two story cottage of the later advertisement was built on the sight of that original coach house and became the coachman's families new home!; for those electoral role entries show him as living at "The Lodge" at 63 West Hill.
As you can see from the above I am not one to just be satisfied with names and dates on a piece of paper, I prefer to get as complete a picture as possible, which is why I want to get a "most probable" picture of how my grandparents came to meet and marry. If they had already left the Vidal's employment and were already living in the Poole area when my grandparents married, where should I look to try and prove this? Best wishes, Carlos