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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: grantleydawn on Monday 20 November 17 03:44 GMT (UK)
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I would love corrections to this part of a probated Will. There are about 50 lines to do and these are the first 5. I constructed it with the help of google so don't laugh too loud.
Can anyone help me please?
Regards
Grantley
1 Reverendissimo in x’po (Christo) patri et domino(,) d(omi)no Thome(,) dei gracia(,) t(I)t(uli) sancti Ciriaci in Termis sacros(anc)te Romane
2 eccl(es)ie presbitero Cardinali Cant Archiepo totius Anglie primate et aplice fedis legato uester humilis et obediens in x’po (Christo) filius Thomas
3 COWPER vicarius eccl(es)ie p(at)rochialis de Kyrkeby monachorum uester ad infrasc(ri)pt(a) Comissarius ob(ligator)iam et rev(er)ent canto patri debit
4 cum o(m)ni(bus) subiectione et honore Litteras Reverend comissionis ure cum ea qua decuit reverent(ia) nuper recepi(sse) tenore ....
5 .... Thomas miseracione diuina t(I)t(uli) sancti Ciriaci in T’mis sacros(anc)te Romane eccl(es)ie p(re)sbiter Cardinalis Cant
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Some suggestions below. Otherwise it looks fine.
2 ... Cant(uariensis) Archiep(iscop)o ... ap(osto)lice sedis legato vester ...
3 ... p(a)rochialis ... vester ad infra sc(ri)pt(a) Com(m)issarius ob(edient)iam et rev(er)enc(iam) tanto patri debit(as)
4 ... o(m)ni subieccione ... reverenc(ia) nuper recepi tenor(em) contin(ent)es
5 Retrosc(ri)pt(um) ... divina t(i)t(uli) sancti Ciriaci in T(er)mis ... Cant(uariensis)
So far, it’s addressed to Thomas Bourchier, Archbishop of Canterbury, by Thomas Cowper, Vicar of Kirkby Monachorum, who has recently received Bourchier’s letters of commission ...
(Archbishop Bourchier was apparently also Cardinal-Priest of the Church of St Cyriacus of the Baths of Diocletian, in Rome, hence the unusual form of address.)
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Thank you. You give me confidence to step further down this rocky road.
These are the next lines that I have stalled with.
6 Archiep(iscop)us tocius Anglie primas et Ap(osto)lice sedis legatus dilecto nobis in x’po (Christo) Magistro Thome COWPER vicario eccl(es)ie
7 p(a)rochialis de Kyrkeby monachorum Salt.. gra.. .... Cum Ric’us MAKYRNESSE dum uixit de p(a)rochia de Wolphamcote
8 Coven(try) et Lich(field) dioc(ese) .... qua prouinc(ie) Cant(uariensis) habens mortis sue tempore bona in diversis dioc(ese) n(ost)re provinc(ie) an dicti Cuius
9 pretextu ipius testamenti approbacio et insumatio ac admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)is bonorum suorum co(m)missio neenon compoti calculi sive
10 Raciocinii admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)is hinor audicio finalis quia liberatio sive dimissio ab eadem ad nos solum et insolidum et non ad alium
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It seems hardly worth posting these minor suggestions, but just so that you can move on ...
7 ... Sal(u)t(e)m gra(tia)m & ben(edictionem) ... wolfh(a)mcote
8 ... dioc(esi) n(ost)re q(ue)* provinc(ie) ... diversis dioc(esibus) n(ost)re provincie an(te)dict(e) ...
9 ... ip(s)ius ... insinuacio ... necnon
10 ... h(uius)mo(d)i audicio finalis q(ue)* liberacio ...
* q(ue) = ‘and’, usually joined to the end of the previous word, but this scribe has separated them off.
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Trust me, all alterations are a great help. Especially to me.
I really appreciate the help.
Regards
Grantley
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This is the next bit, through to the end of the first page. Clearly there are words in here that are just wrong (I think).
11 nobis inferiore(m) judicem de jure prerogativa et consuetudine (i)uris ac eccl(es)ie n(ost)re Cant(uariensis) hactinus quiete pacifice et incon=
12 cusse in hac p(ar)te vsitat(is) et obseruat(is) l(egi)time q(ue) p(re)script(is) dinoscuntur notor(ie) p(er)tin(er)e suum dum vixit rite et l(egi)time condiderit test(amentu)m
13 suam in se ultimam continens ut asseritur voluntatem ac certos in dediu(m) testamento supradict deputaint et ordinaint
14 Nos vero volentes dictorum executorum laboribus parcere et expensis Ad peteoiend probaciones l(egi)timas de et super conscocoe
15 dicti testamenti ac veritate eiusdem Idem q(ue) test(amentu)m coram uobis primitus l(egi)timi(s) probatum approband et insinuand ac pro vero
16 valore eiusdem pronunciand(um) et declarand admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em que o(m)ini(um) et singulorum bonorum dictum defunctum et eius test(amentu)m conc(er)nen(tium)
I would appreciate more help, please.
Grantley
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Clearly there are words in here that are just wrong (I think).
Not many :)
12 ... usitat(is) & observat(is) ...
13 ... in eod(e)m testamento supradict(o) deputav(er)it & ordinav(er)it
14 ... Ad pe(r)cipiend(um) ... confect(i)o(n)e
15 ... l(egi)time probatum approband(um) & insinuand(um) ...
16 ... declarand(um) ... om(n)i(um) ...
line 11 – after consuetudine I’m not totally convinced by (i)uris, although I agree that’s a standard phrase. Looks like it starts n..., and is contracted. It's probably an adjective qualifying consuetudine, but I don’t think it's n(ost)ra. I’m stumped at present.
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What started out as something that seemed too big to challenge, I am now one third the way through. Yippee.
I am sure that I would have given up by now, if I hadn't received your help.
Thankyou.
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You're welcome, but you've hardly needed any help. Very impressive.
It's a shame that so far it seems to be little more than a procedural ecclesiastical document, perhaps Letters Commissional, for the probate to be completed locally? But we shall see ...
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I can dream that one day (in my lifetime) we could scan a document like this and the end result is a document translated in the language of our choice.
But then again, that would take all the fun out of it.
It just takes me a bit longer as the years progress.
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This section has given me the most grief.
Sorry for so many missing words.
2-1 ubicumque infra n(os)tram provinciam .... existenc(ium) ffelici Relict eiusdem Edwardi SAUNDERS Johanni LARGE et Nicholao
2-2 WALSH executoribus in dicto testamento nominat(o) si admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em bonorum .... in se suscipere voluerit In debit Juris forma
2-3 co(m)ittend Et si admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em bonorum .... in se suscip(er)e .... .... defunctem .... .... .... .... pro=
2-4 ....ciand et .... admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em om(n)i(um) et singulorum bonorum dicti defuncti ubicumque infra provincia(m) ....
2-5 .... .... ac in quorumcu(n)que manibus existen(tibus) illis vel illis cui sen quibis de Jure fuit faetus Ac ad .... ....
2-6 .... ab .... sen ab .... cui vel quibus h(uius)mod(i) admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em .... .... de bene et fidelit(er) bona h(uius)mod(i) iuxta
2-7 ip(s)ius defuncti ultimam voluntatem admi(ni)strand(o) Ac de pleno et fideli Inventario om(n)i(um) et singulorum bonorum et debitor(um)
2-8 h(uius)mod(i) conficiend(o) et nobis citra festum Annu(n)ciac(ionis) beate marie virginis proxim(e) futur(um) exhibend(o) necnon de plano
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2-1 ... provinciam anted(i)c(t)am ... Relict(e) ...
2-2 ... nominat(is) ... h(uius)mo(d)i in se suscipere volu(er)int In debit(a) ...
2-3 ... com(m)ittend(um) ... bonorum h(uius)mo(d)i in se suscip(er)e recusav(er)int d(i)c(t)u(m) defunctum ad viam intestati devenisse pro-
2-4 nunciand(um) & declarand(um) adm(ini)strac(i)o(n)emq(ue) ... provincia(m) n(ost)ram
2-5 an(te)d(i)c(t)am ac in quorumcu(m)q(ue) manibus existen(tium) illis vel illis cui seu quibus de Iure fu(er)it faciend(um) Ac ad recipiend(um) p(r)imitus
2-6 Iuramentum ab eo seu ab eis ... duxeris com(m)ittend(um) de bene ...
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I know there are no second prizes, but I did get close to some of those missing words. I think I just gave up trying all the possible variables.
The last word on line 2-4 and the first of 2-5 “n(ost)ram an(te)d(i)c(t)am” was just way too hard for me. Actually, it was exhausting.
Come to think of it, someone has to come last and it was me (again).
A huge thank you.
Regards
Grantley
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“n(ost)ram an(te)d(i)c(t)am” was just way too hard for me.
An(te)d(i)c(t)am is a mean contraction, as it’s not common to omit -te- in the middle like that. But we did have the same phrase in line 8, where you very nearly got it. ;)
Seriously, you’re doing a great job, and I feel sure you will overtake me before we reach the finishing post.
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I hope that I am not expecting too much. Here is the next bit.
2-9 et vero compoto calculo sive Raciocinio nobis aut successoribus (i)uris in .... p(ar)te reddend(a) C....q(ue) faciend(a) ex(er)cend(a) et expe=
2-10 diend(a) que in p(re)misses nec(essar)ia fu(er)int seu quomodolibet oportuna Tihi de ciuis fidelitate et circumspectionis industria
2-11 in hac parte confidimus plenam in domino tenore p(rese)ncium com(m)ittimus p(otes)tatem Sigillo Ac signeto dicti defuncti
2-12 nobis spialiter reseruat(is) Et quid in p(rae)missis fecer(it)is nos citra festum p(rae)d(i)c(tu)m debit(is) c(er)tific(ant)es per (ves)tras l(ite)ras
2-13 patent(es) harum seriem modemque et formam execucionis earund(e)m et verum tenore dicti testamenti et ultime voluntis
2-14 ac nomi(n)a eorund(e)m admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em bonorum h(uius)mod(i) in se suscipientium continent() .... sigillat() dat(u)m Man(er)io
2-15 n(ost)ro de Lamehith sub sigillo Archiexatus .... nono die mensis Novembr(is) Anno d(omi)ni mill(es)imo CCCC mo lxxiij tio
2-16 Et n(ost)re Tanis Anno vicesimo Ciuis quidem Rev(er)end(is) com(mi)ssionis vestre an(tedic)te ....script Ffeliciam Relict
2-17 Ric(ardum) MAKYRNESSE Edwardum SAUNDERS Johannem LARGE & Nich(olu)m WALSH executores in testamento dicti Ricardi
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2-9 ... n(ost)ris in ea p(ar)te reddend(o) Cet(er)aq(ue) ...
2-10 ... p(re)missis nec(essar)ia ... oportunt. Tibi de cuius fidelitate ...
2-12 nobis sp(ec)ialiter reservat(o) ... feceris ... debit(e) c(er)tifices per tuas l(itte)ras
2-13 ... modumq(ue) ... tenore(m) ... volun(ta)tis
2-14 ... continent(ium) ... in Man(er)io (I'm not sure what’s written before Sigillat')
2-15 ... Lamehith(e) ... Archiep(iscop)atus ...
2.16 ... Tr(anslacio)nis ... Rev(er)end(e) ... auc(torita)te retroscript(a) ... Relict(am)
2.17 Ric(ard)i ... Nich(olau)m ...
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(I'm not sure what’s written before Sigillat')
Revisiting 2-14, I now wonder if it’s an(n)ex(atum) sigillat(um) dat(um) = annexed, sealed (and) given ?
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For the bulk of your additions, they are mostly so obvious, especially when someone else does it. :)
Some of the contractions are a bit too much - Tr(anslacio)nis
Your "an(n)ex(atum)" seems a good choice, especially when line 2-18 includes “p(rese)ntibus annex(is) nominat(is) et deputat(is)”.
Thank you very much.
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Some of the contractions are a bit too much - Tr(anslacio)nis
That one in particular gave me extended pause for thought!
Your "an(n)ex(atum)" seems a good choice, especially when line 2-18 includes “p(rese)ntibus annex(is) nominat(is) et deputat(is)”.
Glad to hear that.
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almost there.
2-18 MAKYRNESSE p(rese)ntibus annex(is) nominat(is) et deputat(is) ad co(m)p(ar)end(is) coram me certis die et loco eis ...cat() et admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em
2-19 om(n)i(um) et singulorum bonorum dicti defuncti si volu(er)int recipiend(um) moneri et citari feci iuxta formam co(m)missionis nostre p(re)dicti
2-20 .... quid... Ffelicia Edwardus Johannes et Nicholaus executores p(re)dicti nominati in termino eis .... cor..
2-21 .... comp()entes admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em om(n)i(um) bonorum dicti defuncti in se suscipere .... recusav(er)unt Et tunc ego Com(m)issarius
2-22 p(ro)dene d(i)ctu(m) defunctum ad viam intestati devenisse pronunciam et declaram admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em om(n)i(um) et singulorum bonor(um)
2-23 eiusd(e)m defuncti ubicumq(ue) infra provinc(iam) v(est)ram existenc(ium) p(ro)fato Edwardo SAUNDERS recepto primitus ab eo jura(men)to
2-24 corporali de bene et fidelit(er) iuxta ipius defuncti ultiniam voluntatem h(uius)mod(i) bona admi(ni)strand(i) Ac de pleno et fideli
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and a race to the finish line.
2-25 Inventario om(n)i(um) et singulorum bonorum et debitorum h(uius)mod(i) conficiend(o) et vobis citra festum Annu(n)ciac(i)on(i)s b(ea)te marie
2-26 virginis proxim(um) futur(um) exhibend(o) necnon de plano et vero compoto calculo sive raciocinio vobis aut successoribus
2-27 ....ris in hac parte reddend(um) in debita Juris forma iuxta effciu retrosc(ri)pt... com(m)issionis com(m)isi sigillo ac signeto
2-28 dicti defuncti vobis reservat(e) et s.. com(m)issione(m) .... reverend() iuxta vires eiusd(e)m .... pesse meum humilit(as) sum
2-29 executus In cuius Rei testimonium quia sigillum meum pl(u)ribus est incognitum sigillum distreti viri domini
2-30 Archi() Coventr() Offic() p()nti certificatorio ac dicti defuncti testamento s.... annex() appoin p.... Et ego
2-31 Officialis an(te)dictus ad sp(ec)ialem rogatum dicti certificantis sigillum officialitat(es) Coventr() p(rese)ntibus apposui in fidem
2-32 et testimen(tu)m p(re)missorum dat(um) quo ad apposicrem sigilli h(uius)mod(i) decimo decimo die mensis marcij Anno d(omi)ni
2-33 infrasc(ri)pt(a) &c.
Yahoo, that is it.
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Hardly anything here ...
2-18 ... nominat(os) et deputat(os) ... ad co(m)p(ar)end(um) ... die & loco eis limitat(is) ...
2-19 ... vestre p(re)dict(e)
2-20 Qui quidem ... p(res)enti nominati ... eis limitato ...
2-21 me comp(ar)entes ... penitus recusarunt ...
2-22 p(re)d(i)c(t)us ... pronunciavi & declaravi Ac admi(ni)strac(i)o(n)em ...
2-23 ... p(re)fato Edwardo ...
2-24 ... ip(s)ius defuncti ultimam voluntatem ... admi(ni)strand(o)
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Hardly anything here either.
Nothing for 2-25 or 2-26.
2-27 v(est)ris ... reddend(o) ... eff(e)c(tu)m retrosc(ri)pte ...
2-28 ... reservat(is) & sic ... v(est)ram reverend(am) ... s(ecundu)m posse meum humilit(er) ...
2-29 ... discreti ... Archi(episcopi) Coventr(ie) Offic(ialis) p(rese)nti ... simul annex(ato) apponi procuram
2-30 ... officialitat(is) Coventr(ie) ...
2-31 et testimoniu(m) ... ad apposic(i)o(n)em ...
2-32 infrasc(ri)pt(o) &c.
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Excellent achievement. Neck and neck at the finishing-post, I think. I doubt you’ll need help with the translation, but shout if so.
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Thank you for your persistent help.
I do hate Latin, so much. Unfortunately my research keeps bringing me head on into it.
But it can get worse. Sometimes I have bumped into French documents and I flatly refuse to learn another language.
Simply, if you weren’t there to help then somethings just wouldn’t get revealed.
Best Regards
Grantley
;)
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You're most welcome. Glad to be of help.