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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ianocon on Tuesday 21 November 17 04:38 GMT (UK)
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Catherine Power born abt 1846 in Dublin had two children born Liverpool Thomas abt 1867 and Mary abt 1870. The children's birth dates are estimated from 1881 census in Hackney London where she was living with those children (both named O'Connell) and supposedly married to Jeremiah O'Connell There seems to be no record of her marriage to J O'C and I can't find the children's births in Liverpool under either O'Connell or Power name.
I'm wondering whether Power was her maiden name or whether she was previously married to a Power. The only record I have with that name is from the birth of a son (also called Jeremiah) with Jeremiah O'Connell in Feb 1878 where mother's name was Power.
Would appreciate any help in untangling a likely history
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Looking at the 1891 census Catherine and Jeremiah had two further children - Catherine b 1883 Greenwich and Sarah b 1889 Croyden.
I can't see a birth registration for Sarah but on the GRO Birth Index which lists maiden names there is a Catherine O'Connell registered 1883 June Qrtr 1883 in GREENWICH Vol 01D Page 1070 with mother's maiden name Connelly
Kay
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The Jeremiah O'Connell registered March Quarter 1878 with mother maiden name Power was in the district of Greenwich
There is another Jeremiah O'Connell registered March Quarter 1878 at St George Hanover Square with mothers maiden name Connely
Check the address of the 1881 census 8 Hesketh ?Place a lodging house in Kensington, with the birth certificate, they may have moved around though.
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Thanks Kay and Amondg.
This gets more and more confusing because the birth cert for Catherine in Greenwich 1883 shows the mother as Connelly - yes - but the father is Jeremiah O'C Deceased. I had therefore put that cert aside thinking it must be another family because I know from tracking the father Jeremiah that he did not die until 1910 in islington Infirmary. I know that is my Jeremiah because the informant was katherine Pickering (daughter) and she was katherine O'Connell before marriage - (there are family anecdotes which confirm her as the daughter of jeremiah).
I suppose the Deceased reference could have been an error by the registrar?
In which case perhaps the mother Catherine could have been Connelly maiden name and married a Power - subsequently using both names on different occasions - or vice versa?
The variable birthplaces may not have been too surprising since both Jeremiah and Catherine were hawkers and could well have moved around.
I was chasing the Thomas and Mary children to see if I could shed more light on the mother and perhaps tie things together
Oh dear an awful lot of "ifs"!
Ian
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The mother Catherine would always have used her maiden name when registering the children, it wouldn't matter who she married, her maiden name is required and remains the same.
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I know that is what is said about gro birth registrations but I came across one just recently in my research where the only child of a second marriage was registered with the mother's first married name rather than her original maiden name. Yes all above board, early children registered with her maiden name and a registered second marriage and birth well after that - so although probably true in most cases one can't be emphatic about it and say this was what happened in every case.
Pheno
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Sorry to throw another spanner in the works, but from an experience I had, I would not assume that the 1881 census shows Catherine as the mother of Thomas and Mary. They are recorded as children of the head of house, Jeremiah, and there is a bit of a gap between Mary's birth and the 1878 birth of Jeremiah which could mean she got together with Jeremiah snr and his 2 children then started having her own children with him.
Sue
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Thanks Sue
However I think there may be a problem with your idea.
Although the census states Jeremiah (the older) was 32 he was in fact barely 27 - I have his birth cert in Hackney born 10/3/1854. This would mean he fathered Thomas at age 14 which seems unlikely. His wife Catherine was older and for her given age in 1881 and 1891 would have been 18 when Thomas was born. This suggests she is more likely to have been the parent.
Jeremiah was notoriously variable in stating his age (until death in 1910) which tallies with his birth.
He appears in Hackney Union workhouse records in the 1880s and overstates his age by 2-3 years throughout. Incidentally, I know those records are for the correct Jeremiah because he gives his mother and brother with their addresses as closest relatives.
So I think I should still be looking for Catherine his wife as mother of Thomas and Mary maybe as Connelly rather than Power. Can't find anything in Liverpool however.
Thanks again for help
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Did children Thomas and Mary get married if so who did they name as their father?
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Jeremiah Gerald O'Connell married Catherine Carrabine in Liverpool june qtr 1867
so
did Catherine Power marry a Carrabine in Ireland ?? I can't find a marriage of Power to Carrabine before 1867 on Freebmd England /Wales
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Hi garstonite,
Liverpool Catholic records show she married the other groom, John Murray.
Heywood
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sincere apologies - thought I had found the marriage ...silly old custard aren't I ....lol
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sincere apologies - thought I had found the marriage ...silly old custard aren't I ....lol
I thought you had as well :) but never mind.
It is so frustrating.
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Slow to reply - apologies have been away.
One other bit of jigsaw following the Greenwich thread - possibly - I now have a death cert for Catherine Powers 29/8/1891, age 47 (so birth abt. 1844) Hawker of 22 Mill Lane Deptford, Greenwich District. Unfortunately informant was Medical Officer Union Infirmary and not a family member, so no clue there.
This possibly fits with Jeremiah O'Connell birth in 1878, in Union Infirmary Greenwich with mother formerly Power and a hawker.
So there is a possibility that Catherine Power didn't marry the father Jeremiah O'C but used his name while they were together.
She was with Jeremiah and family as Catherine O'Connell in the 1891 census (i.e. just before her death). He is on his own in 1894 thro 1902 on the electoral roll in Campbell Rd Islington, a wdr on the 1901 census and died in Islington Infirmary in 1910.
So far so good but problem comes with birth of Catherine in 1883. Although she was born in Greenwich, address Mill Lane Deptford (which fits) - the mothers name was given as Connelly and the father Jeremiah O'C was given as deceased.
I can't see an explanation for that unless she was trying to hide her identity!
That's annoying because I was following the idea that if she could use her partners name without marrying once (with jeremiah O'C) - I suppose she could have done it previously with the father of Thomas and Mary which is why I can't find them under Power.
Any thoughts would be appreciated
Ian
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Where do you have the information that she was Catherine Power ? Sorry if I have missed it.
I thought the births showed Connelly.
With regard to the birth certificate, it could be an error- a presumption of the registrar; the couple may have been separated at the time and Catherine gave that information - we do not know.
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I have two certificates:-
Jeremiah O'Connell birth 1878 QtrM 01d 998. -20/2/1878 at Union Infirmary Greenwich. mother Catherine O'Connell formerly Power.
Informant - the mark of Catherine O'Connell residence Union Infirmary Greenwich.
It is Catherine's certificate which shows her mother as Connelly:-
Catherine O'Connell birth 1883 Qtr J Greenwich 1d 1070 - 20/2/1878 at Union Infirmary Greenwich, mother Catherine O'Connell formerly Connelly of Mill lane, Deptford.
Informant - The mark of Catherine O'Connell, Mother of Union Infirmary. Interestingly, perhaps, the O'Connell in the informant name is written above another name - looks like O'Connor which has been crossed out. Probably incorrectly recorded at first?
I can't find certificates and hence don't have mother's name for:
Thomas O'C 13 in 1881 census born Liverpool
Mary O'C 11 in 1881 census born Liverpool
Also I can't find cert for Sarah 2 in 1891 census born Croydon
The other Power reference is for her death mentioned above in 1891
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Sorry I hadn’t noticed the death. I had considered the Jeremiah mentioned in reply #2 Hanover Square birth.
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Now I do need some help!
I decided to follow up amongdg's suggestion and investigate the second Jeremiah O'C birth in St George Hanover Square in the same March quarter of 1878 as my Jeremiah born in Greenwich.
I sent for the certificate and to my surprise find that both these Jeremiahs have the exact same birth date of 20th February 1878 - one born 18 St Anns Street, Westminster (registered 11th march) the other in the Union Infirmary Greenwich (registered 2nd march). However in the St George case the mother is formerly Connely - in the Greenwich case she is formerly Power.
(NB the other birth cert I have is for the daughter Catherine born in Greenwich Union Infirmary 31st march 1883 with father Jeremiah O'C (deceased?) with mother formerly Connelly of Mill Lane Deptford.
Surely the two Jeremiahs of 1878 must be the same child?
Has anyone come across this sort of situation before and what could possibly be the reason/explanation?
I'm inclined to believe the mother formerly Power is probably correct because on 4th Feb 1878 Catherine Connell was admitted to Greenwich Union - cause of asking relief "destitute and Pregnant" - described as Wife of Jeremiah "Removeable" laborer address not known. Then there was the birth in Greenwich Infirmary on 20th Feb 1878.
Were there reasons in those days why a mother would register her child in more than one place and disguise her name when doing that?
Any help would be much appreciated
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Do the certificates mention a father?
Heywood
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FindMyPast indexes shows an 1878 baptism for Jeremiah O’ Connell in Westminster with father ‘Jeremie’. I do not have access.
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The child Jeremiah O'Connell baptised at Westminster 1878 is shown as:
Jeremiah O'Connell born 16/1/1878, bp.24/3/1878 RC church, Horseferry Road, Westminster, son of Jeremiah O'Connell and Catherine Daly of 28 St. Ann Street.
Annette
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Oh dear ::)
St Ann Street begins at 1881 112/97/1 but I can’t see 18 or 28.
There are some lodging houses in the area though and a Court and Buildings with same name.
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Thanks Annette
But I’m puzzled because i have the GRO record which states an 18 St Ann st address with father Jeremiah O’Connell and mother Connelly.
Can I ask - Where are you finding the name Daly information?
It doesn’t seem possible to reconcile these two bits of information!
It begins to look as if there are two Jeremiahs!
Ian
Heywood both times the fathers are named as Jeremiah O’Connell
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Thanks to help from Rootschat support I have moved this thread to London because from Liverpool because it seems more likely I can find answers from that region.
Does anyone know it there was a practice for parents to register births in more than one parish/workhouse area in order to get duty of care support from both places if needed?
I have 2 birth certificates with Jeremiah O'Connell a hawker, the father registering a son in 1878:
-Jeremiah b.20th Feb reg'd 2nd March at Union Infirmary Greenwich, Mother formerly Power
-Jeremiah b.20th Feb reg'd 11th march St Ann St, Westminster, Mother formerly Connelly
It seems remarkable that two hawker fathers would have a son Jeremiah on the same day
On 4th Feb Catherine Connell was admitted to Greenwich Union Infirmary destitute and pregnant so it seems likely the mother was formerly Power.
However, on 31 Mar 1883 Jeremiah O'C, hawker, and Catherine had daughter Catherine again in Greenwich Union but mother was formerly Connelly
I can find no history for a catherine Connelly
With both parents Hawkers, the family probably moved around because on the 1881 census they were in 8 Hesketh Place Kensington.
Workhouse records show the father Jeremiah was in and out of Hackney/Islington workhouses and Infirmary for 12 out of 20 years and Catherine O'Connell was also in Islington Infirmary at times.
I am wondering if its possible that Catherine O'Connell/Power returned to Greenwich to have her children because that was the parish/area that was obliged to give her care.
I developed this idea because reports of Henry Mayfields social research in the late 19th century suggests that Masters of Workhouses did move pregnant women on to avoid becoming responsible for the children. That research also showed that only a minority of Hawker couples living together were married which could explain why women might use the name of the father of their children in some cases but their unmarried name in others.
In my case here I can't find any record of Jeremiah marrying although I have his death cert - nor of Catherine Power/Connelly marrying nor of her death although there is a record of the death of Catherine Powers in Greenwich Infirmary in 1891.
Does anyone have a view on whether it's likely my two Catherines are the same person?