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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: colee on Tuesday 21 November 17 15:13 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Does anyone know if St James, Church Kirk has a register that can be viewed on line? I have found this entry for a marriage in 1918, and just want to check if it's the John I'm looking for, son of Catherine Ann Snape and William Thomas Butterworth.
Marriage Dec 1918: Ellen TATTERSALL to John BUTTERWORTH 1918 Churck Kirk, St James Church Preston CE37/7/345
Thank you!
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Marriages from St James, Church Kirk Parish are only available on Lan-OPC until 1894.
So you'll have to visit Lancashire Archives, I think?
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that's helpful thanks. I can pay on line, i've now worked out it's in the Altcar area, but wondered if it was somewhere else I could look too. the archives are in Preston aren't they? Manchester would be more accessible for me as I could send my daughter...
thanks again
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Where and when was 'your' John born :-\
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I think this is the church:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James%27_Church,_Church_Kirk
1918 marriages not available to view:-
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/623946?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Blue
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Hi there
'My' John was born in Halliwell in 1893 according to the 1901 census, and his mother Catherine Ann Snape was born in 1868 in Withnell.
John's father was William Thomas Butterworth, my great grandfather, a bit of a mystery figure. He married Catherine in 1892 but around 1900 left Lancs for Chatham, Kent, with my great grandmother, Sarah Ellen Yates, together with her mother Ann and 4 out of 5 of her siblings. My great aunt Margaret was born in 1900, and my grandmother in 1902, then a great uncle Berty in 1904. He disappears after that, there was some family story that he died in a brawl. My great grandmother remarried (or probably married for the first time) George Thomas Waghorn in 1906.
I would love to find out what happened to John and William Thomas Butterworth, although so far haven't tracked down anything for WT after 1902.
Any ideas?!
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For anyone helping :)
The 1901 gives William T as age 31 an Insurance Canvasser born Blackburn.
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that's helpful thanks. I can pay on line, i've now worked out it's in the Altcar area, but wondered if it was somewhere else I could look too. the archives are in Preston aren't they? Manchester would be more accessible for me as I could send my daughter...
thanks again
Altcar is near Formby. ??? Am I missing something?
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that's helpful thanks. I can pay on line, i've now worked out it's in the Altcar area, but wondered if it was somewhere else I could look too. the archives are in Preston aren't they? Manchester would be more accessible for me as I could send my daughter...
thanks again
Altcar is near Formby. ??? Am I missing something?
I'm confused as well, but the marriage was registered in Blackburn district, which includes the parish of Church, which is the name of the village.
Mike
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Hi,
Yes thanks for putting me right on that. The Lanc council website came up with Altcar when I was thinking about ordering the certificate, it gives you the parish name if you don't know it yourself - not sure why it came up with the wrong name. Perhaps it should be Whalley, I found another reference elsewhere on the website:
CHURCH KIRK, St James (Whalley); Diocese of Blackburn.
I might try to order it again if I can find the right page and can't find the info any other way.
Perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree (a bit appropriate here!...), I found Ellen Tattersall on the 1939 Findmypast register with John Butterworth but I don't have the right membership to see the 3rd name in the household. I'm thinking about buying some credits but not sure if I want to commit, I already have Ancestry etc.
sorry for causing the confusion..
I've also looked through all the births of Johns to a mother Catherine in the churches around 1893 when I think he was born, but can't find anything.
thanks for your help and interest so far
Colee
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Marriage Certificates cost £10 through the lancashire website and £9.25 from the GRO
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Marriage Dec qtr 1918
BUTTERWORTH John
Tattersall Ellen
Blackburn R.D 8e 596
Your local library may have full access to the 1939 register
Where did you see John & Ellen in 1939
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that's a really good point about my local library, I will definitely look into that. I have a the cheap membership of findmypast, this is the info I am able to access on their website:
Butterworth Household
Blackburn C.B., Lancashire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) BIRTH YEAR
John Butterworth 1893
Ellen Butterworth and 1 more person are on this record
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The information and reference number you quoted in your 1st post was from Lancashire BMD. The register is at Preston.*
The church is on St. James' Rd., Church. It closed last year. There has been a church in Church since middle of 7th century. Earlier ones were dedicated to St Oswald; St. James was successor to St. Oswald's. The place Church is situated beside Oswaldtwistle. The railway station is Church & Oswaldtwistle. They are between Blackburn and Accrington and now merge into Accrington.
Edit. * The way you added Preston after St. James, Church Kirk made it appear as if Preston was the postal address. It's not. Preston was included on the reference you found on Lancashire BMD because the original marriage register is kept at Preston.
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that's useful, thanks, helps to reinforce the geography and make sense of the history of all the place names.
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Unfortunately the surnames of Butterworth and Tattersall are fairly common around this area. Looking at the 1939 Register there is certainly a John Butterworth born in 1893 with a wife Ellen living in Blackburn -- but we don't know for sure if it is your couple.
There is also an Arthur and a Hilary present. HOWEVER - the maiden name of their mother was LAMB - so that entry in 1939 I think can be discounted.
In addition there is a John Butterworth born 1892 on the 1939 Register in Oswaldtwistle (which is adjacent to Church Kirk) - but his wife is not Ellen.
The safest thing you can do is to actually purchase the marriage certificate to check the father's name. This will prove once and for all whether it is your John. Also it should say whether the father was deceased -- so if it IS William Thomas - you will know whether he is alive at that point.
I have looked at Military records - just in case John was in WW1 - but if he was, his record hasn't survived. Also checking births of babies named Butterworth, with mother's maiden name of Tattersall shows an Elsie in 1923 in Oswaldtwistle sub registration district (Lancashire BMD) -- but this may be a different Butterworth/Tattersall couple.
I would obtain the marriage cert definitely - just to confirm one way or the other. You can order from the General Register Office on line (which is the easiest way).
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You mentioned Whalley and the Diocese of Blackburn in post # 9.
Whalley was a large, ancient parish, founded before the Norman Conquest 1066. Church, Oswaldtwistle, Old and New Accrington, Haslingden, Altham and many other settlements were within it. Part of it extended into Yorkshire. Whalley Abbey was an important place. The Abbey was closed by King Henry 8th's Reformation. Whalley is around 7 miles north of Church. (A favourite destination for a summer Sunday ramble for Church & Oswaldtwistle residents who were contemporaries of John Butterworth.)
The Diocese of Blackburn was founded 1926.
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Huge thanks that is incredibly helpful.
In fact I was only guessing that Ellen's husband was my John. I don't know anything about him after 1911 when he is an 18 yr old Taylor shop assistant living at 107 Hall Lane Farnworth with his mother.
So the John listed at Oswaldwistle could be him, although he seemed to move around a lot so I'd be almost surprised if he was that close to where he started.
Yes it looks like I need to purchase the marriage cert to see the name of this John's father.
It is still possible that the John on the 1939 register is 'my' John as I am only guessing Ellen Tattersall may be is his wife, it could be Ellen Lamb instead?..
thanks again - I will now make that purchase.
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purchase now gone through, fingers crossed, although estimated despatch date isn't until 14 December, I hope it doesn't take that long. Death certs are much quicker than that!
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Moderator comment: edited to remove information from subscription site.
John's mother?
Baptism: 7 Oct 1866 St Paul, Withnell, Lancashire, England
Cathrine Ann Snape - Dau of Sally Snape
Abode: Withnell
Occupation: Weaver
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colee -- I am rather concerned about where you ordered the marriage certificate from if the estmated despatch isn't until 14th December.
Normally if you order from the General Register Office in Southport it takes about a week.
https://www.gro.gov.uk -- you can order on line from here (£9.25)
In some cases you can order from the local register office on line as well - but I don't think you can yet from Lancashire - you can print off the order form and send in the post -- also takes just a few days and costs £10.
I would advise you to only order from one or the other - and NOT from the Genealogy search sites who will charge a premium.
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you're really kind to bring it up, but funnily enough I did order it from the GRO, which is the slightly cheaper option as you say, and a simple format for ordering. I don't know why it quoted such a long lead time, but I wouldn't be expecting it to take that long.
I really appreciate the heads up from you though, I find it quite frustrating that family research costs add up so quickly - I have ordered 3 certs from the GRO in the last few days which indeed adds up to rather a lot of money. But it'll be worth it if I find the holy grail of my 'lost' relatives.
thanks again
ps thank you lancsann for your post about a possible John Butterworth, I am just looking through all of my notes again to recheck dates of birth etc.
The 1901 census records John's grandmother as Sarah rather than Sally Snape, as per the baptism record you mention, but maybe they are the same person...
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I am pleased you ordered it from GRO -- I was worried you may have ordered it via one of the genealogy sites who do give you the option of ordering via them (at a cost!!)
I agree the costs can mount up -- but then whatever hobby we might have costs something - I have to look at it that way - and also I enjoy the hobby. There are just those occasions when you HAVE to order a certificate - to confirm or discount a possibility. This is one such case, otherwise you will always be wondering if it's the right John!
By the way Sally was sometimes used as a nickname for Sarah.
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it is curious though that I can't find a birth for a John Butterworth in 1892/3 either on the GRO or the OPC sites. John's parents Catherine Ann Snape and my great grandfather William Thomas Butterworth were married in the parish of Christ Church, Blackburn on 11 Jan 1892. I have tried to look for baptisms in that church just in case but can't seem to find a register linked to Christ Church.
So perhaps John wasn't christened a Butterworth?
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Please forgive me if you already know this but the marriage of William Thomas to Catherine is included on the Lancashire marriages on Ancestry.
Christ Church Baptisms are also on there - but John does not seem to have been baptised at that church.
For a Lancashire marriage it is always useful to search those records on Ancestry first as if that particular church is included - for a marriage AFTER 1 July 1837 - the record is identical to a marrige cert you would order from GRO.
In case you don't know how to find these records on Ancestry (and as I say - forgive me if you do)
1. Go to 'search' on the ribbon menu at the top of the search pane on the home page.
2. From the drop down menue - select 'Card Catalogue'
3. Type 'Lancashire marriages' in the search box - and select relevant date range.
4. enter search terms.
You can use this Card Catalogue for all sorts -- just input key words - just to see if there are any datasets which may be useful for you -- eg other county names, apprenticeships, poor, non-conformist etc etc.
If you look at Lancashire Baptisms -- Christ Church at Blackburn IS there.
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That is useful, thank you.
I haven't been using the card catalogue search function which I see is useful, I did manage to find the church collections before through the right panel but may have missed some by doing it that way. I think it may have been the OPC site which sent me off course as I couldn't find the Christ Church register there - but I have now found it through the card catalogue.
Going back to John - I should qualify that by saying I couldn't find his birth on the GRO or lancashirebmd sites, I meant in conjunction with a Catherine maiden name Snape.
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colee --- I think I must have missed something with this query. Going back to your post about John with his mother Catherine in 1911 --- he is shown as born in Rochdale on that census.
In 1901 -- the William Thomas born in Blackburn is in Chatham - so the Butterworth family are never together as a group.
If you haven't found John's birth or baptism - how do you know that his parents are William Thomas Butterworth and Catherine Snape?
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Yes, I'm starting to doubt it myself.
But William Thomas Butterworth married Catherine Ann Snape in January 1892 in Blackburn - maybe because it was disapproved of if say she was already pregnant with John, WT was 21, she was 25, they married in his area of Blackburn rather than Withnell (didn't couples usually marry in the bride's family area) where she was from as are lots of other Snapes. A son John Butterworth (according to the 2 census records) was born in 1892 so that date fits with the marriage, and he stayed with his mother Catherine (who now calls herself Butterworth) at least until he was 18, according to the 1911 census. Here Catherine describes herself as a widow. They had already left Withnell and moved to Farnworth by 1901 with Catherine's mother Sarah Snape. Catherine's mother made up the family unit with her daughter and grandson - she herself was a single mother I think.
Yes it is curious that the 1911 census shows John's place of birth as Rochdale; in 1901 it is listed as Withnell (I think before I read it as Haliwell, but see now that it's Withnell).
William Thomas left Lancashire with my great grandmother Sarah Ellen Yates some time before 1900 and they settled in Chatham where my grandmother, great aunt and uncle were born. Sarah Ellen's mother Ann, 2 sisters and 2 brothers also came to Chatham (1 brother stayed behind in Lancashire but died of TB in 1906).
My aunt never met her grandfather William Thomas, the only thing she remembers being said about him is that he died in a brawl. I don't know where. I don't think William Thomas and my grandmother married, although her 3 children by him were christened Butterworth. My great grandmother married another man, George Thomas Waghorn, in 1906 and my grandmother tended to use the name Waghorn rather than Butterworth so William Thomas was rather forgotten about.
Does that help at all?
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Thank you for going to that trouble colee. It sorted out my 'senior moment'.
What a confusing family! In 1901 Catherine's birthplace is shown as Tockholes! Her mother is shown as born in Farnworth and there is also a mysterious Boarder present, named William Butterworth -- born Rochdale!
If William Thomas Butterworth died in a brawl you would think there would be something in the Newspapers - before 1906, when your Great Grandmother married (although not necessarily - she and William Thomas could have simply separated.)
I couldn't see anything about his death between 1900 and 1906 anyway.
I did find a John Butterworth aged 83 buried at Blackburn Cemetery in 1977 in the same grave as an Ellen Butterworth aged 83, buried in 1976. However this is probably the couple present in 1939 with the 2 children whose mother's maiden name was Lamb.
Please let us know when you receive the marriage certificate -- and whether or not it is your John.
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colee -- I am rather concerned about where you ordered the marriage certificate from if the estmated despatch isn't until 14th December.
I am also surprised that you have to wait so long, Did you answer no to this question when you ordered
For all events
Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?
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I didn't answer that question at all. I haven't provided it for the death certificates I have ordered in the past and it doesn't seem to have held them up. Perhaps I'll try and call them on Monday to find out what that 14 December date is all about and if I can speed it up at all by providing any extra info over the phone.
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By the way Pennines it is me who is extremely grateful and thankful for your help and interest on this, I am happy to clarify as much as necessary..
...and I'm glad it is not just me who is perplexed by the dynamics of this bit of the family - but it will make it all the more satisfying when it is eventually hopefully solved!
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colee -- I think Rosie hit the nail on the head by asking you if you had inserted the reference numbers for the marriage.
I hope I can explain this without confusing you, as it is often easier to show someone something than explain in writing. Anyway here goes!
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To order from the General Register Office (GRO) - it is much easier for them if you can quote the reference number of the event which is given on the Civil Registration Index (ie the Register of births, marriages and deaths which commenced in July 1837).
This register is on the subscription sites such as Ancestry and Find My Past and also on a site called FreeBMD.
In this case of the marriage of John Butterworth to Ellen Tattersall search the marriages on the site of your choice (LancsBMD has the marriage year -- BUT the reference number they quote is for the LOCAL Register office at Preston and will NOT do for the GRO).
On the Civil Registration Index of marriages you will find the entry in the Registration District of Blackburn in 1918.
The details you want to complete the application form for the GRO are;
Page 1.
The type of application - birth, marriage, death -- just click the appropriate box.
Is the GRO Reference Number known --- click Yes
The Year of the event
Click Submit
Second Page;
Surname and Forename of at least the groom or the bride (or both if you wish)
Insert the Quarter of the event (in this case Q/E Dec 1818)
Insert District name --- in this case Blackburn
Insert Volume Number ---- this one is Vol 8e
Insert Page number --- ie 596
Then submit and pay.
Not giving the GRO the reference details means that someone will have to hunt through for the particular event you are requesting - which will of course cause administrative time.
Hence if you do intend ringing them you can provide the details given above -- but have a go at finding them yourself first, just for future reference so that you know where to look.
If any of this sounds like gobbledegook to you -- don't hesitate to come back! I know what I mean, but may not be putting it across very clearly.
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All made sense thank you so much for clarifying! I probably didn't bother to include a ref number as I wasn't sure which was the one they used, but all is now clear for next time - and I will probably also call on Monday to try to hurry things along.
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That's great colee -- the trouble is not knowing how much people actually do know -- and being afraid to clarify something just in case they are aware of it already. Better to be safe than sorry though!
I am pleased if the explanation helped.