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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: Philezra on Wednesday 22 November 17 22:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi. I'm going nuts.....or are no children registered?
Can't be the case.
1901 census has Thomas Edmonds 48, Eliza 45, Eliza J 20, William 18, Mary 12, Florence 8, Arthur 4. All children born in Plymouth. Says Thomas born in Jersey (should be Guernsey). Eliza born Mevagissey.
1891: Thomas (EdmUnds) 38, Elizabeth 35, Teddy 12, Elizabeth 10, Willie 8, Margaret 2
1881: Thomas (EdmUnds) 29, Elizabeth 25, Edey 2, Elizabeth J 11 months
Marriage Thomas Edmunds and Elizabeth Luke 1877 Plymouth
Cannot find any child on GRO for love nor money....
Phil
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I'm going nuts
So am I - I can't find births for them. GRO maiden name search doesn't turn up anything either ???
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Another one going nuts here! Why did you post this at bedtime?!! :'(
Giggsy
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Oddly, Florence in 1901 seems to morph into Thomas 10 yrs later.
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Another one going nuts here! Why did you post this at bedtime?!! :'(
Giggsy
;D ;D Nothing coming up for me either. Seems very odd that they didn't register any of them.
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I take it this isn't a first, but all of them!!
It wouldn't have anything to do with Thomas being born in Channel Islands perhaps??
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If the children were all born Plymouth - that's where the births should have been registered.
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From later records, Arthur (4 in 1901) seems to be Arthur Reginald H Edmonds, born 25 Oct 1896. He married Maud Mary Moon Edwards in Plymouth in 1920, and died in Plymouth district Mar qtr 1878.
Records for him seem to be in the Edmonds spelling.
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From later records, Arthur (4 in 1901) seems to be Arthur Reginald H Edmonds, born 25 Oct 1896. He married Maud Mary Moon Edwards in Plymouth in 1920, and died in Plymouth district Mar qtr 1878.
Records for him seem to be in the Edmonds spelling.
So...
Birth reg Dec qtr 1896 Plymouth: Arthur Reginald HATHERLEY, mmn Luke. Hmmm!
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Then I think we may find that "Edey/Teddy" (2 in 1881; 12 in 1891) is this Edmund Luke HATHERLEY.
Baptism, 13 Jan 1879, All Saints, Plymouth
Edmund Luke HATHERLEY, born 28 Jun 1878.
Parents: Edmund (labourer) and Elizabeth, of 56 Wells St.
Added: Birth reg as Edmund HATHERLY, mmn Luke, Sep qtr 1878 Plymouth.
Possible marriage as Edmund HATHERLY to Marian WOOLLAMS, Jun qtr 1899 Plymouth.
I think they appear as Edward and Marian EDMONDS in Plymouth in 1901: RG13/2102/100/44.
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Then for Margaret (2 in 1891) who becomes Mary (12 in 1901):
Birth reg, Sep qtr 1888 Plymouth: Margaret Maud Mary HATHERLY mmn Luke.
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Oddly, Florence in 1901 seems to morph into Thomas 10 yrs later.
Birth reg, Mar qtr 1893 Plymouth: Thomas Luke HATHERLY, mmn Luke.
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Marriage Sept Q 1878 Plymouth 5b 472
Edmund Hatherleigh & Elizabeth Luke on same page
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Then for Margaret (2 in 1891) who becomes Mary (12 in 1901):
Birth reg, Sep qtr 1888 Plymouth: Margaret Maud Mary HATHERLY mmn Luke.
She married in Plymouth, 18 Feb 1905:
Emil BURGUNDER 24 bach Hotel Servant of 31 Morley Place. Father: Sebastian Burgunder, labourer.
Margaret Maud Mary HATHERLY 18 spinster of the same. Father: Edmund Hatherly, machine hand.
Witnesses:
Edmund Hatherly
Elizabeth Jane Maddock**
** Elizabeth Jane H EDMONDS married Henry Ball MADDOCK, Jun qtr 1901 Plymouth.
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1861 census Plymouth has Edmund Hatherly b. 1853 Jersey with parents John & Rachel Hatherly and siblings Thomas and William
RG 9 1444 Fol 116 Pg 5
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Birth reg, Jun qtr 1880 Plymouth: Elizabeth Jane HATHERLEIGH mmn Luke.
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Birth reg, Mar qtr 1883 Plymouth: William HATHERLEIGH, mmn Luke.
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So WHAT HAS HAPPENED?
Has Elizabeth Luke married twice? What happened to Edmund Hatherley?
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So WHAT HAS HAPPENED?
Has Elizabeth Luke married twice? What happened to Edmund Hatherley?
Early days, but it looks as though Edmund Hatherleigh/Hatherly and Thomas Edmunds/Edmonds may be one and the same, the family alternating between the surnames for reasons unknown. If that is right, it also looks as though there were two ceremonies of marriage between the couple, with the bridegroom using different names in each - again for mysterious reasons.
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Then for Margaret (2 in 1891) who becomes Mary (12 in 1901):
Birth reg, Sep qtr 1888 Plymouth: Margaret Maud Mary HATHERLY mmn Luke.
Baptism, Christ Church, Plymouth, 12 July 1888
Margaret Maud Mary HATHERLY, born 25 June 1888
Parents: Edmund (labourer) and Elizabeth, of 31 Morley Place.
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Oddly, Florence in 1901 seems to morph into Thomas 10 yrs later.
Birth reg, Mar qtr 1893 Plymouth: Thomas Luke HATHERLY, mmn Luke.
Baptism, Christ Church, Plymouth, 18 Dec 1892
Thomas Hatherley HATHERLEY [sic], born 25 Nov 1892.
Parents: Edmund (dockyard labourer) and Elizabeth, of 31 Morley Place.
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I don't think Florence exists - I think she's an erroneous entry for what should be Thomas in 1901 (and the age was originally entered in the male column, and amended).
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What a fascinating case ..well done super sleuths ..I look forward to hearing theories of why they changed names ....saw an example of this to do with Irishman escaping persecution after being in English army .
Another case was to do with half the children being stepchildren and depending who filled form in all given father's +( step father) name or half given their original birth name.
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St Andrew, Plymouth
1877 Jul 16
Thomas EDMUNDS, bachelor, 23, Mariner, 33 Richmond St, father John EDMUNDS Shoemaker
Elizabeth LUKE, spinster, 21, -, 40 Stillman St, father Thomas Luke, Shoemaker
married after banns
He signed she made her mark, in presence of Mary Hocken, Louisa Jane Sargent
Ian C
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On 12 Mar 1871 Edmund joined the Royal Navy. Born 12 Mar 1853 St Heliers Jersey.
Wonder if he jumped ship.
Ian C
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John HATHERLY married Rachel NASH at Chard, Somerset on 5 July 1830.
They were in Chard in 1851. Two youngest were William and Thomas who were with Edmund etc in 1861.
Ian C
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This has been an astonishing case. There have been countless times when I have sought advice and when I should have delved closer. However I'm glad in a way that this was a bit different. Thank you all so much.
However, I have Thomas born c. 1854 as being born in Guernsey with parents Thomas and Mary (1861 census) not "John" (as per the marriage 1877)
There is a marriage between Thomas Carr Edmunds and Mary Ann Picken 1849 Plymouth.
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However, I have Thomas born c. 1854 as being born in Guernsey with parents Thomas and Mary (1861 census) not "John" (as per the marriage 1877)
Perhaps this is another indication that the 8 yr old Thomas C Edmunds in Guernsey in 1861, although obviously tempting, is a red herring, and that Elizabeth's bridegroom in 1877 was in fact a disguised Edmund Hatherly, whose father was indeed John, a shoemaker?
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I certainly don't want to labour this point but has he, in practice, stolen an identity??
Perhaps they were on the same "ship"??
In theory there would be two concurrent Thomas Edward Edmonds??
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Have added this link as it refers to Edmonds/Hatherley
Post by Philezra - Heading marriage Thomas Edward Edmonds
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=821492.new;topicseen#new
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I have Thomas born c. 1854 as being born in Guernsey with parents Thomas and Mary (1861 census) not "John" (as per the marriage 1877)
There is a marriage between Thomas Carr Edmunds and Mary Ann Picken 1849 Plymouth.
Can you give details of this 1861 census
Edit - Is this the Edmund family?
Piece: 4385 Folio: 41 Page Number: 7
Thomas Edmunds 45
Mary A Edmunds 31
Mary A Edmunds 9
Thomas E Edmunds 8 St Sampson, Guernsey, Channel Islands
Elizabeth Edmunds 7
Tessie Edmunds 5
Julia Edmunds 4
Flora Edmunds 3
Georges Edmunds 1
Angelina Hobbs 20
and family 1871
Piece: 5766 Folio: 10 Page Number: 14
Thomas Edmunds 55 Portsmouth occ Druggist
Mary Edmunds 41
Mary Ann Edmunds 19
Elizabeth Blanche Edmunds 17
Jessie Edmunds 15
Julia Edmunds 14
Flora Edmunds 13
George Edmunds 12
Frederick Edmunds 9
Clement Edmunds 7