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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Shiny1 on Monday 27 November 17 10:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I'm trying to get a little personal detail about Annabel Nicholson but am really struggling to find her.
I know she married Charles English on the 17th of Jan 1910 in South Shields. I know they had two children, James William English born in 1910 and Charles English born 25th Oct 1915.
I know on the 1911 census she is named as Isabella and born in North Shields but Annabel on the soldiers register of effects and wedding GRO index. I know the POB on the 1911 census can quite often have been the place where they are living at the time so I'm not convinced about that one.
Charles English died at Ypres in 1915 and she remarried in 1916, again in South Shields to Robert Ramshaw who joined up then deserted in 1917. I know she and Robert had a son also called Robert in 1917.
I have found all of this out through records on her two husbands but what I can't find is her on her own.
I'd really like to add her date and place of birth and I'd like to know if she stayed with Robert.
I have tried doing a free search of the 1939 register but as I don't know which of two first names or three possible surnames she is using I'm struggling to find her either on that or just in general.
Can anyone help?
Michael
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It's not an answer to your question, but I see another possible child for the Ramshaw marriage:
Birth reg, Sep qtr 1919 South Shields: Mary R Ramshaw, mother's maiden name Nicholson
Death reg, Sep qtr 1921 South Shields: Mary Robinson Ramshaw, aged 2.
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Hi ,
What ages have you found for her ?
I've seen an Annabel Nicholson birth Oct 1892 Newcastle upon Tyne Northumberland :-\
ev
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The 1939 Register(free search) has an Isabella Ramshaw birth year 1894 ,a Robert Ramshaw(b. 1895) is also on the record , Wallsend Northumberland.
ev
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Hi ,
What ages have you found for her ?
I've seen an Annabel Nicholson birth Oct 1892 Newcastle upon Tyne Northumberland :-\
This Annabel(l) doesn't seem to have married before 1911.
A free index search suggests Isabella English is 21 in 1911.
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According to South Tyneside Registrars Indexes, the first marriage to Charles English has a ref of R which is likely to be a register office or a registrar attended (possibly non conformist) marriage.
The second marriage to Robert Ramshaw has a reference of CK 12 which according to their code list was St Mary Tyne Dock. If the library or TWAS has those records on microfilm you should be able to find her Dad's name from the record which would help you to search for her prior to her marriage (with a bit of luck a sibling may have been a witness which would improve the search)
I'd start with that and report back.
Boo
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From Dusty Docs it looks like the marriage was 10th August 1916 St Mary South Shields , witness's
names George Willam Baker and Sarah A Abbot.
(UK Marriage Witnesses Database)
ev
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Hi All,
By happy coincidence I'm working in South Shields today so have managed to read your replies then nip to the library.
I now have the 1939 register that ev referred to and I think that probably is them, the ages would be about right and his occupation is similar to his pre WW1 job. It's a pity you can't get on Ancestry's fold 3 in the library as I want his court martial record as well, that will have to be something for the next free access they do.
I asked about the marriage code and they said the same that is was probably a registrar one. I missed the one for her second marriage but I'll have a look at it later when I can go back over.
Thanks for all the help again,
Michael
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From Dusty Docs it looks like the marriage was 10th August 1916 St Mary South Shields , witness's
names George Willam Baker and Sarah A Abbot.
(UK Marriage Witnesses Database)
ev
Ev, I've never seen that site before but it's in my favorites now.
Michael
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It's not an answer to your question, but I see another possible child for the Ramshaw marriage:
Death reg, Sep qtr 1921 South Shields: Mary Robinson Ramshaw, aged 2.
Thanks a lot, I'll get her added in as well.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
I have been able to look up the record for you and save you another trip. However, it looks like she is unlikely to be Annabel. Or what do you think?:
St Mary's, South Shields
10 August 1916
Entry no: 45
Robert Ramshaw and Isabella English
Both aged 21
Bachelor and Spinster
He was an 'Electrician'
His residence: Tyne Dock
Her residence: 18 Railway Street
Fathers: Henry Ramshaw (deceased) - Chief Engineer and John English - Skipper(deceased)
Both signed their names
Witnesses: George William Baker and Sarah A Abbott
Marriage was by licence
Best Wishes :)
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Robert Ramshaw's service record also says he married Isabella English, a spinster.
Do you have anything that confirms she was the widow of Charles?
EDIT Yes, I assume you got that from the register of soldier's effects which has a note dated 1919 saying Annabel Ramshaw.
Curiouser and curiouser :-)
Boo
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This is turning into a real puzzle, here's what I know.
Charles English married Annabel Nicholson on the 7th Jan 1910. Their names are confirmed on the GRO index (ref 10a 1163 for both).
The 1911 census records them both as 21 years old, married for 1 year and living in Middle Street, North Shields with a 1 year old child, James. Charles's occupation is a dock yard painter's labourer.
On the 23rd of April 1915 Charles is killed in a battle just outside Ypres.
Free BMD shows a second child being born in South Shields in Sep 1915 to English and Nicholson - conceived during Christmas leave?
Robert Ramshaw's service record shows he married Isabella English, a spinster, on the 4th of October 1916 at St. Marys, South Shields and gives his address as Raglan Street, South Shields. He list's one child also called Robert born in 1917. He was a dockyard fireman.
River Tyne Lass's information shows them both as being 21 when they were married on 10 Aug 1916 at St. Marys in South Shields.
I have found a family tree on line that shows Robert's father was called Henry and he died in 1915. Annabel's father's name is unknown because I can't find any trace of her before she married Charles. Charles's father was also called Charles so she hasn't just used his name.
The register of soldiers effects shows Charles widow receiving a payment on the 20th Aug 1919 for herself and children, she is now called Annabel Ramshaw.
The 1939 register has Robert Ramshaw, born 1 Jan 1895 and Isabella Ramshaw, born 25 Dec 1894 living in Wallsend.
Free BMD shows two children born in South Shields to a Ramshaw and Nicholson in March 1917 and 1919. There is nothing for Ramshaw and English.
I don't have any document from the time to confirm she is definitely the same person but I think after Charles has died she has managed to find a husband to help bring up her young family, I suspect Robert worked in the same dock as Charles .
For some reason she has lied about her age on the second marriage and made herself 5 years younger. Her two children, aged 6 and 1 aren't mentioned on his military record.
The only thing that does puzzle me is why did she stay with a deserter after what happened to Charles, unless it was because of what happened to Charles and she has told him to desert as she didn't want to lose a second husband.
Any thoughts?
Michael
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I have been able to recheck the reel today and can confirm that no one married on the 4th October 1916 at this Church. So on his service record either Robert got muddled up or lied about his marriage date.
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Robert Ramshaw's service record shows he married Isabella English, a spinster, on the 4th of October 1916 at St. Marys, South Shields and gives his address as Raglan Street, South Shields.
He list's one child also called Robert born in 1917. He was a dockyard fireman.
River Tyne Lass's information shows them both as being 21 when they were married on 10 Aug 1916 at St. Marys in South Shields.
Robert's father was called Henry and he died in 1915.
The 1939 register has
Robert Ramshaw, born 1 Jan 1895 and Isabella Ramshaw, born 25 Dec 1894 living in Wallsend.
Sorry not able to help with Annabel Nicholson ???
on Robert's Army records I see that next of kin
Alice / mother has been crossed out and Isabella/ wife added
not sure if you have these records.....
6 East Perey Street
Alice Ramshaw m 25
Robert Ramshaw son 6
Henry T W Ramshaw son 4
Mary Lawrence wid 56 mother in law
1901c RG13; Piece: 4803; Folio: 19; Page: 30
RAMSHAW, HENRY THOMAS WAUGH mmn LAWRENCE
1896 S Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 813
RAMSHAW, CARL ROBERT CHRISTIANSON mmn LAWRENCE
1895 M Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 795
death 1951 Robert
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/167805641
Marriage
Dec 1894 S Shields
Henry Thomas W Ramshaw
Alice Lawrence
1891 RG12; Piece: 4155; Folio: 107; Page: 31
Alice Lawrence 16 servant
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Charles English married Annabel Nicholson on the 7th Jan 1910. Their names are confirmed on the GRO index (ref 10a 1163 for both).
The 1911 census records them both as 21 years old, married for 1 year and living in Middle Street, North Shields with a 1 year old child, James. Charles's occupation is a dock yard painter's labourer.
On the 23rd of April 1915 Charles is killed in a battle just outside Ypres.
Free BMD shows a second child being born in South Shields in Sep 1915 to English and Nicholson - conceived during Christmas leave?
Is this James' birth entry?
ENGLISH, JAMES WILLIAM ROBINSON mmn NICHOLSON
1910 M Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 843
A public tree on Anc*y for JWRE says
born 16/01/1910 • South Shields, County Durham
death DEC 1984 • Blackpool and Fylde, Lancashire
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8669606
parents
Charles English born 24 JULY 1891 • North shields
died 23 APRIL 1915 • Flanders France
Hanna Isabella 1893 Scotland –1968
died 20 MARCH 1968 • Lancashire
you would need to verify
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Morning Ladyhawk, thanks very much for the info I think that is them.
Being a sucker for military records I'll have to get those and see what he was up to and if it helps any.
(Great screen name as well, that used to be a favourite film of mine).
Michael
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Here's another possible explanation to throw into the mix.
Annabel's first husband Charles English had a younger sister called Isabella who was born around 1895/6.
Is it possible that she is the person who married Robert Ramshaw? Her age would have been correct and she would have been a spinster rather than a widow.
The reason I have ruled her out is because:
1. The register of soldiers effects naming Charles widow as Annabel Ramshaw.
2. The second marriage referred to by River Tyne Lass names her father as John, it would have been Charles.
I suppose it's another option to consider.
Michael
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Just to note -
Hanna Isabella 1893 Scotland –1968
died 20 MARCH 1968 • Lancashire
you would need to verify
FreeBMD
Death Hannah I J Ramshaw , age 78(born c1890) , 1st quarter 1968 , Fylde Lancashire.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/167805644/hannah-isabella_johnson-ramshaw
Death Robert C C Ramshaw , age 55(born c1896) , 2nd quarter 1951 , Fylde Lancashire.
ev
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Marriage Robert C C Ramshaw / Vera Whittaker 1937 Fylde Lancashire.
I know she and Robert had a son also called Robert in 1917.
That could be the son , looking at free 1939 Register this Robert was born c1916 and looks like there was a son also Robert C C Ramshaw.
I think we really need to get the full details of the 1910 marriage to make further progress :-\
ev
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Hi Ev,
Thanks for the extra information, I think you could be right about needing that marriage detail.
Michael
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This is the first time I have ever travelled to do a look up for someone without getting an acknowledgement for the effort undertaken. On the day I did the look up I went not once but twice to check both dates. I did this to ensure I had crossed all the 'Ts' and dotted all the 'Is' in checking the marriage dates for you Michael :-\
At least Ladyhawk and Ev who posted information after me have received thanks - and rightly so - good research work!
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I'm sure that it would be an oversight. All Rootschatters are so very grateful for the research that our fellow chatters do for us (and the research is so very good: fast and furious most of the time). We all fully understand the concept behind the site and the generous act of "paying forward". I haven't explained what I mean as well as I feel I should. I'll put it down to it being early in the morning. Nonetheless, River Tyne Lass, you've done a splendid job in spite of this cold, snowy weather we're having.
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River Tyne Lass,
I am so sorry I missed thanking you for the research you so kindly did for me, I really did appreciate it and didn't intend to be so rude as to miss acknowledging the fact.
The information you posted made me recheck everything I already had and compare it with the information the forum members had found and in the excitement of using it all to produce the long reply I posted next, I missed doing the most important part, thanking the person who had found it for me.
I am very busy at work at the moment so wouldn't have been able to get back to the library to find the information for myself for at least a couple of weeks. I had assumed you were there doing research for yourself and added that search on, which in itself would have been great, but the fact you went out of your way to help me and made a special trip is unbelievably kind.
The kindness and generosity of the members of this forum never ceases to amaze me. So many people have gone out of their way to help me I can only hope that when I am in a position to help someone myself that I spot it in time to do so.
Once again, please accept my apologies, I will understand if you choose not to help me again but please don't let it stop you helping others. I'm sure, like me, they will really appreciate your help but hopefully will give you the credit you deserve.
Michael
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This is a very gracious apology, Michael. Only a true gentleman could have penned such a missive and I do appreciate this very much and believe what you say. I can quite understand the thrill of the chase as you have explained, leading to the oversight.
I can very easily now put this in the past and move on and of course I will be only too glad to carry on helping you in the future if it is in my ability to do so.
And many thanks, too for your peacemaking Mr Tibbs. You have both put a smile on my face as I am travelling back home on the bus after nightshift.
Best Wishes to you Both. :) :)
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Always welcome. ;D