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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: powerwicklow on Monday 27 November 17 12:03 GMT (UK)
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For as long as i have been researching my family i have had nothing on two brothers to my GG grandmother an Elizabeth Smith born Scratenagh , Arklow, Co Wicklow Ireland. DNA results has led me to find the descendant of one which has led to possibly finding more on the other.
The two brothers were Thomas Webster Smith born 16 Jan 1848 at Scratenagh to George and Margaret Smith nee Webster and John Smith born we though around 1846 but it would seem now early 1830's at same place to same parents.
Thomas it would seem from an on line tree on Ancestry , Thomas went on to marry an Eliza Jane York , 14 Mar 1878 at Waitahuna and went on to have a family of 5. I am waiting to see can i get a reply from owner of tree to verify Thomas and have ordered a marriage to help prove who he is.
It is John Smith although i have found a descendant is vague. From his descendant it was though he had gone straight to NZ where he married an Elizabeth Kinnison but since we have started researching we have found the marriage of John and Elizabeth 17 Feb 1862 in Melbourne Australia.Elizabeth was Scottish born circa 1830 to a John Kinnison and Mary Ireland.
Sometime between 1862 and 1874 John and Elizabeth moved on to NZ where in 1874 a daughter Susan was born at Blue Spur. There was at least one more child known of a Mary. Susan went on to marry a Lionel Edwin Ellison and the family comes forward to their descendant i have found, a grandson.
The only other date i have at present is when Susan died. 25 Sept 1922 in Stirling, Otago NZ.
Even if no more is to be found what i have found may help someone else connect.
Many thanks
John
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Hello,
"I am waiting to see can i get a reply from owner of tree to verify Thomas and have ordered a marriage to help prove who he is."
The marriage:
1878/759 Eliza Jane York Thomas Webster Smith
Unfortunately the data collected at this time may not provide the information you are are seeking:
From 1854 Marriage Act 1854 (Dated 1 January 1855)
Bride and Groom
When and where married
Name and Surname
Age
Rank or profession
Condition
Name of officiating minister (or Registrar)
When registered
Signatures
Signatures of bride and groom
Signatures of the witnesses
Signature of officiating minister (or registrar)
Minniehaha.
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Hello John
I've been able to find a very detailed Obituary for the John SMITH (husband of Elizabeth nee KINNISON) you mention. (Traced back through the information you provided about his daughter Susan.) ;) So here it is for your perusal.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TT19180406.2.12
~ Lu
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... and now that you've read that, you'll have noticed it described John SMITH as "a North of Ireland man" ???
~ Lu
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Hello again John
Here is the Probate file containing the Will of the aforementioned John SMITH.
[I haven't as yet read it in its entirety - will do so shortly. ]
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9LD-Z4Y5?i=213&cc=1865481
~ Lu
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9LD-Z4Y5?i=213&cc=1865481
Here you go John ... confirmation at Image # 231 ... that John SMITH was born at >
S ..... ? Arklow, CO. WICKLOW ;)
~ Lu
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Don't you love wartime probates?
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Don't you love wartime probates?
... have to say "nah" after battling through all that legalese (- it really does my head in, these days). ;D ;D
But the file is chock-full of useful information -- particularly in terms of family. :)
Happy reading to you John (powerwicklow). ;D
~ Lu
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Death notice for Elizabeth SMITH (w/o John SMITH) :
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TT18880519.2.4
~ Lu
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What do i say. Thanks is hardly enough for what has been found. I have only glanced over what has been found but will look at in more detail now. The information is there , just knowing where to find it. Also this bit of research is showing me where modern technology is helping to fill the gap where records might not exist. It was not my own DNA but my mothers which was tested recently that came in as a close match to descendant to John Smith. Test was done with Ancestry. I think the marriage of Thomas Webster Smith to Eliza York is Thomas from my family as descendant of John Smith was aware of same marriage. The Australian marriage of John Smith to Elizabeth Kinnison was excellent as it gave where both bride and groom came from and both parents names with mothers maiden name. What more could you ask for. Will be back when i have read over all.
John
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Marriage Certs
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We have John Smith born circa 1836 Scratenagh Arklow. Death 28th March 1918. Elizabeth Kinnison born circa 1832, Scotland. Death 16 may 1888, Tuapeka West. Both of them are buried with their daughter Mary Jane in the Presbyterian section of Lawrence Central , Otago , cemetery.
His obituary has John in NZ 1861 but himself and Elizabeth were married 17 Feb 1862 , Melbourne , Australia.
From the Will there would seem to have been 7 children. Three sons and four daughters. George Smith. John Kinnison Smith and a William Smith. Not quite making out from will where William was. A school teacher??.
Four daughters. Margaret,Mary Jane , Elizabeth and Susan. From the records we have seen so far Elizabeth hadn't married. Susan married Lionel Ellison. Descendant i have come across of Susan and Lionel may come on board here and bring family forward another stage. Margaret Married an Alexander Manson and Mary Jane married James Andrew McNeilly.
Mary Jane died young. Buried with her parents her death is recorded as 19 Feb 1906 aged 35. It would seem that James married again a lady by the name of Matilda. James 1859-1941.
Will have to go back and read over will again but if correct 4 children for Mary Jane and James McNeilly.
More work to be done but a good start. Many thanks to all for records found to date.
John
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According to BD & M,s for NZ the four children born to an James Andrew McNeiily , mother Mary Jane are as follows.
Alexander Rae McNeilly Born 1893
Elizabeth Kinnison McNeilly Born 1896
John Smith McNeilly Born 1897
James Andrew McNeilly Born 1906
Family search is coming up with more information. Marriage James Andrew McNeilly and Mary Jane Smith, 17 Jun 1891, Taupeka West, Otago, NZ.
John Smith McNeilly born 1897. Marriage 1921 NZ to an Alberta Jane Muir.
Elizabeth Kinnison McNeilly. Birth 20 Mar 1896 NZ. Death 11 July 1976 NZ. Marriage 4 Sept 1929 NZ, to a William Hercules Stanley Willocks.
James Andrew McNeilly . Born 9 Feb 1906 NZ. Death 17 Aug 1974 NZ. Marriage 23 Oct 1929 NZ to a Dorothy Ellen Edwards.
John
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Had you noticed that one of the witnesses to the John Smith /Elizabeth Kinnison marriage was Frank Webster who was shown as a miner from Blue Spur. Noting that John Smith's mother was the former Margaret Webster I am wondering if there is a connection. In my searches I have found that while many families did strike out into the wide blue yonder many others went where others from their villages or their families had gone. Looking at witnesses and seeing how they fit is can be very informative (some times), other times not so.
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Haven't managed to get back to this thread yet to add further, but yes, I'd also spotted the "Frank Webster" witness and followed up on him.
I'll find the notes shortly, but from memory the Frank (Francis) I found, married the widow of what I assumed was a fellow mining ? colleague. There was no issue of that union and it was therefore a difficult task to prove whether the man was the same as the fellow who'd appeared as a witness.
And I agree shanreagh that taking the time to check out marriage witnesses can be a very worthwhile exercise (at times). ;)
~ Lu
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Of the 15 Smith children only the two that we are researching emigrated to NZ. While most of the rest stayed local William and Henry Smith emigrated to Canada .
I had help here before researching two other people.
Elizabeth Webster Wicklow to NZ
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=594790.0
Henry Webster Roberts, Wicklow Ireland to NZ
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=554689.0
John Smith and Thomas Webster Smith are first cousins to Elizabeth Webster and Henry Webster Roberts.
The question of who Frank Webster might be. There is the possibility he is also a first cousin. While we have always had it verbally that the family of Websters i come down from and another local Webster family are one in the same we have not found connection on paper. DNA is again proving very helpful here in that my mother and a member of other family are proving close connections.
Where does this bring Frank in. Three members of other Webster Family also emigrated to NZ. A John , a Francis and a George Webster.They were all sons of a Robert Webster and Sarah Smyth of Ballyknockan , Glenealy, Co Wicklow.
John Webster 1855-1942 married an Ann Robertson 10 June 1885 at Waitahuna West. They went on to have 11 children
George Webster born 1849 as far as we know didn't marry in NZ but was killed in a mining accident 25 Nov 1886 at Otago. Cemetery records say he had been in the country 8 years.
Francis Webster born 17 June 1853, Ballyknockan. I have a Marriage for Francis to a Jane Higgins 27 Sept 1887 at Lawrence. One child know of here. A daughter Minnie. Francis passed away 11 Aug 1942 at Dunedin. No idea at the moment when Francis arrived in NZ but he may be the witness at marriage.
John
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I have made initial contact with owner of online tree at Ancestry as to family of Thomas Webster Smith and it would seem from correspondence between families the same Thomas is linked back to same family at Scratenagh, Arklow, Co Wicklow.
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I have just encouraged my brother in law here in NZ to do the Ancestry DNA test. He is called Alan [surname redacted to maintain personal privacy - Moderator] and his great grandparents were John Smith and Elizabeth Kinnison who married in Melbourne and arrived in NZ (South Island) for the gold rush. We are grateful for sight of their marriage certificate online. Alan has an extensive Smith family out here. Once he has his DNA results in front of him it would be good to correspond and find out definitely where in Ireland this particular part of his family originate from. Cheers
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It will be good to see your brother in laws results when they come in . My DNA is on Ancestry as is my mothers. Both of us coming down the Smith line. It is a family i have been researching for some time now and DNA is helping to break down the final few brick walls in it. Out of a family of 15 there is only one now i cannot account for yet. An Isaac Smith. He was born 1849 and the only clue to him in later life if correct is a comment in local Church Registry of India. Rootschat is a great site so if you have anything on your Smith side or your brother in laws on their early days please post so others can find.
John
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We have been working on the Otago Smith Tree (much of which has already been put to paper by Alans late sister Fay) and have very much enjoyed sight of the family on Papers Past which includes quite a few death and marriage notices of the family. Much to our astonishment a Death notice has come to hand for Margaret Smith of Scratnah Arklow Ct Wicklow naming her as the widow of George Smith and mother of John Smith of Tuapeka West, in her 91st year. Originally listed in the Irish Times before John had it published in the Tuapeka Times on 14 April 1897 just two months after his mothers death.
So it seems we can confirm that my brother in law Alan George Smith has ancestry back to the Smiths of Arklow County Wicklow.
We are due to tour southern Australia soon and will be visiting (hopefully) Back Creek which is where John Smith & Elizabeth Kinneson were said to be of on their marriage certificate. Back Creek is a gold mining town of the 1850s so we are intriqured as to whether John Smith learnt his trade in Australia before continuing to NZ to mine in Gabriels Gully. John & Elizabeth are known to have had the first child to be born in the goldfield of Gabriels Gully In 1863. We await the DNA for added confirmation.
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A picture of a painting of Margaret Smith painted in 1848 when Margaret would have been 41. I photographed that painting a number of years ago and at that stage the painting was with a descendant of Margaret s brother. Margaret's brother been an Isaac Webster of Blainroe Wicklow
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An obituary i found to Margaret Smith.
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Margaret Smith headstone Arklow, Co Wicklow , Ireland. Her husband George to the best of my knowledge is not buried here as graveyard only opened a few years previous to Margaret passing away. I estimate George Smith died somewhere around the early 1860's.
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I would hope to be able to add more here shortly. I have DNA matches that have come in i believe should give proof of family connections. Just need to go through them.
John
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It would seem reading back over this thread i am now in contact with the person Overall mentions and DNA is proving us to be related. We are all back to the one. Attached a photo recently sent to me by my new contact and cousin of John Smith and Elizabeth Kinnison. It is reckoned the picture was taken circa 1888 at Lawrence.