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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: dorothyl on Monday 27 November 17 14:52 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone.
Please can you help me with something? I've been trying to find out where my great granmother Frances Jones was born and where her son was born. I'm having trouble trying to find out. I seem to be going round in circles.
I'm going by what my mum told me and what I have recently found out. But not where they both was. Actually born.
My great gran. Frances Jones had siblings brothers and sisters. But dob's unknown. My grandad Alfred evan Jones. Is the son of Frances Jones.
My great gran Frances Jones was born 12th of march. I'm not sure if it was 1887 /1890's it's round about that year. My mum said her gran might have been born 1887. And she was unmarried and never married. And only had one child who was Alfred Evan Jones. He was born 27th September 1910. But what I found out he was registered until 1914. So they might think he was actually born in 1914.
According to Manchester register office in England. They said it's possible my grandads mum was embarrassed to register his birth as she had him out of wedlock. Or she could have completely forgotten to register him until 1914.
My mum mentioned something about her dad being in Rhos on sea. I think she said he was born there.
Here is where I get confused.
My mum told me her gran was living in England. And she asked her employer can she bring her son to stay with her as she was living in where she was working. Her employer ask how old her son was. She said 15. And she sent for her son. So there's this big gap. Where was my grandad living or living with while his mum was over in England working. ?
My mum had a good memory. But for the last few months she usually got confused with things or she forgot or got mixed up. Her memory was going like it would have been at her somone her age.
I only wish that I had enough time to ask her about her gran and her dad. She only told me bits at a time.
Anyway please can you help me find out where my grandad was born and if my great gran was born as well..
Thank you for your help I really do appreciate it
Your's sincerely
Mrs Dorothy Lucas
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Please can you give all the details from Alfred Evan Jones birth certificate
Is he the Alfred Evan Jones recorded as born 17/09/1910 and died 9/08/1946 buried in the Southern cemetery in Manchester?
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Is this his birth registration :-\
Sep qtr 1914
Alfred E Jones mothers maiden name Jones
Chorlton reg district 8c 1401
Who did he marry & when
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If your Alfred Evan Jones is the one in Southern Cemetery also in the grave is William Hopwood Jones born about 1869 and died in 1907
William Hopwood Jones married Ellen Tomlinson in Warrington 5 November 1888
In 1891 the couple are at 42 Brick Street Warrington they have 2 children George aded 1 and Frances 3 weeks. William is a bootmaker.
The daughter Frances was born 11 March 1891 and christened 29 March 1891in Warrington
However to prove this is correct you need to give us some definite information Alfred's birth certificate, marriage certificate and death certificate would be good!
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Hello.
Thank you for your e-mail.
My grandad married my granma in about 1933. I was told by registra office in wales. That she had found a name for Alfred evan Jones. And eveline shulman. And marriage Quarter December 1933. Which I don't understand.
I don't understand the meaning of Quarters. Which is confusing me. I keep thinking I'm being told the wrong information. I know my grandad is buried in southern cemetery.
My grandads mum was called Frances Jones. She never married and only had 1 child which was my grandad.
I also know my great gran passed away in hattersly. And was found behind her front door. By who I don't know.
If there is anything you can help me with about both my great gran Frances Jones and my grandad. I would really appreciate it. I don't even know where my mum's birth mum was actually born. As there is no trace of her in Scotland. Where my mum said she was born. My mum's mum did live in England until the late 1950's. She moved to Scotland. Where she stayed until she died in 1998.
Anyway thank you again. As I say I would really appreciate any help and anything on my mum's family.
Thank you
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Marriage December qtr 1933
Jones Alfred E
Schulman Eveline
Manchester S. 8d 357
This is from the index of marriages of the General Register Office in England (Southport, Lancashire) normally referred to on here as the GRO. The indexes are compiled in Quarters. December qtr would normally mean that the marriage took place in the 3 months leading up to 31 December ie October/November/December
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Hi again,
Thank you for your other message.
I can't believe it. My mum was telling me about a relative called Alfred william Hopwood Jones.. she called him grandad pop. My mum said her gran Frances Jones was born 12th of march. But didn't know what year. Maybe she was out by a day.
I can't believe that I'm hopefully on my way to find my grandad and his mum.
I have applied for my grandparents marriage certificate at the registra office in Manchester. I'm just waiting for it to arrive. I don't know where abouts my grandad was born. As there is no trace of him in wales. My mum said he was born Rhos on sea. But has no idea where.
I can't ask my mum. Because I lost her in march this year.
I would really like to finish off what I started for her even though she isn't here. I don't want to give up.
Thank you again for your help.I do really appreciate it.
Thank you
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Hi once again.
The lady at Wales register office said she found a Alfred evan Jones and shulman
And said she thinks Manchester S . Sounds as if it means Manchester South.
Now I'm worried if the registra office in Manchester. Would be able to send my grandparents marriage certificate. Because I said to them at the office. I was told December Quarter. 1933. And Manchester s .
I have hopefully sent you what I was sent by Alison from Wales register office.
And I hope that it makes sense.
Thank you again for your help
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This may be Frances in 1911 Llandrillo Yn Rhos her place of birth Warrington
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VK-N4G
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Thank you again.
I'm just wondering if my grandad was born in wales. Because of what my mum told me.
I don't know anything else about him apart from his dob he was registered in England 1914.
I was told by the registra office in Manchester. Maybe his mum was to embarrassed to register him due to being an unmarried women. Or maybe she completely forgotten to register him. But I have somewhere. It says register date / year 1914.
Would it make any difference with the registra office in Manchester. To the difference of what I've been told. By the registra office in wales. I told the management register office. That I was told the s after Manchester sounds like south. It is bothering me now. I just hope that they can find my grandparents marriage certificate.
It's worrying me because when you're on a budget and have to save money up to buy what you want. Which I have to do. And I can only buy 1 certificate at a time when I can.
Anyway thank you again for all your help.
Yours sincerely
Mrs Dorothy Lucas
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If Manchester can't find it they should refund your money.
The cheapest place to get certificates is from the GRO using references that you can generally find on freebmd - https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Link to GRO - https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Marriages are £9.25 including postage.
Certain births and deaths are available as PDF's -see the page I have linked. PDF's are ideal for family history and currently cost £6.
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Looks like William remarried so Ellen must have died pre 1901 census, maybe after birth of William Jnr as Ernest looks like William/Edith's son. Think both were widowed when married?
Marriages Mar Q 1899 Same page
Jones William Hopwood Chorlton 8c 895
Matthews Edith Maria Chorlton 8c 895
1901 for family https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9GW-RMW William a Shoemaker.
1891 for ref https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7W5B-CW2 William a Shoemaker.
Bapt of Frances https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NF25-5BD
Marriage of William/Ellen https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFNH-Z4N
Cas
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Manchester should be able to find the 1933 entry - the marriage, according to LancashireBMD, took place "Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended" and the Registers are in Manchester.
William Hopwood and Edith were married at St Clement, Longsight.
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16 January 1899 - St Clement, Longsight - by Banns
William Hopwood Jones, 29, Widower, Shoemaker of 189 Earl Street. Father: George, Shoemaker
Edith Maria Matthews, 21, spinster of 189 Earl Street. Father: George, Shoemaker
Witnesses: William Ernest Matthews and Alice Matthews
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William Hopwood Jones
Birth year 1869
Baptism date 09 Jul 1875
Residence Warrington, Lancashire, England
Father George Jones
Mother Elizabeth Jones
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Mothers maiden name was Hopwood. George/Elizabeth married 1859 Warrington, vol 8C
Page 152
JONES, WILLIAM HOPWOOD mmn HOPWOOD
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 158
Cas
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Edith Maria remarries in 1913 to Henry Waterhouse. Both of them are in the same grave as William Hopwood Jones and Alfred Evan Jones in the Southern Cemetery.
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Grrrrhh! Warrington is one of those towns which alternates between Lancashire and Cheshire.
Marriage venue for Elizabeth Hopwood and George Jones is St Elphin - CheshireBMD
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Hi,
I can't believe how much you have found out for me.
If my mum was here. She would be really pleased. As she didn't know much about her gran.
I was wondering. If my great gran Frances Jones was born in cholton. Which sounds correct. How and where would she have had her son Alfred evan Jones?
Perhaps I miss understood something my mum said as she use to switch from one conversation to another which mad me laugh. I'd use to say what's that got to do with what you are telling me. Then she would find the funny side.
What I mean bye me misunderstanding my mum. Perhaps she mentioned Rhos on sea. For another reason. Like she was in Abergele hospital from the age of 3.until she was 8. She had a T.B Spine due to being thrown out of a wheel Barrow by 2 boys while playing. Her dad would have gone to see her I think. I do know she said during her stay in hospital her dad was in a ward behind her. What made me laugh is when she said she figured away out of her plaster. She would wriggle out of it. Then stand on it to look over the curtains round her bed. When she knew that a nurse was coming she would wriggle back into it. This was just before she was sent home she said. I think she wanted to come home.
Also what I would like to add is. There is a Edith in Frances Jones family.
My mum gave me a lot of family members names but didn't know any birth days or anything like that.
Thank you again for all your help.
I really do appreciate it thank you.
Yours sincerely
Mrs Dorothy Lucas
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Likely Birth of mother of Frances Jones
TOMLINSON, ELLEN - No mothers maiden name listed so likely illegitimate
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 195
Age 17 at marriage Nov 1888. Also no father listed on marriage info.
Likely death
Name: Age at Death (in years):
JONES, ELLEN Age 21
GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 151
Cas
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1881 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27G-4WKJ for Ellen
Frances Tomlinson married Peter Leicester in 1877, but is recorded as a widow in 1881.
So seems likely that Frances Jones was named after her grandmother Frances Tomlinson.
Cas
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As mentioned earlier you can order a .pdf of this certificate for £6.00 from
www.gro.gov.uk
JONES, FRANCES TOMLINSON
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 222
Moderator comment: Details from the 1911 census and 1939 Register have been removed. You may only post information available from free search results not transcriptions or images.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355485.0
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Hi again.
My mum said my great gran Frances Jones was born 12th of march. But didn't know the year or couldn't remember it. My grandparents Alfred evan Jones ( the son of Frances ) and eveline Jones ( eveline was born eveline shulman ) they was living at 59.rusholme road cholton on Medlock Manchester. That address is on my mum's birth certificate. So I'm not sure if my great gran Frances Jones was living in the same house. According to my mum my great gran didn't like my mum's mam. If I remember wrightly. I could be wrong on that bit. I know my great gran wasn't pleased about something. Maybe it was my grans background. My gran eveline shulman her dad was a German jew. Which I only found out myself a few year's ago. I think my mum knew about her mum's background and tried to forget about it. Because my mum's grandfather David Joseph shulman (the father of eveline ) died in the 1920s
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Hi again.
My mum said my great gran Frances Jones was born 12th of march. But didn't know the year or couldn't remember it.
The birth registration for Frances given to you by Elzabels in June qtr 1891 can be for a March birth. The parents did not have to register it immediately they were given a few weeks so it would not always be shown in the quarter that they were born
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Hi.
I've just been reading the message again.
You mentioned a Alfred evan Jones as being born 17th September 1910 and passed away 9th of august 1946.
My grandad was born on the 27th of September 1910. But apparently according to a document I found somewhere I saved from a few year's ago. It says he was born in wales ( which I'm not sure because of I've been told 2 different places and there is no trace of my grandad being born in wales )
It says registered 1914. It has the correct dob on him.
I just don't understand why his not registered in wales. He is buried in southern cemetery Manchester. I know that because my mum told me. As she visited his grave when she was younger. After she had us all
Perhaps he was born in England. Which is very difficult for me to find out.
I feel like I've hit a brick wall.
Thank you again for your help and time.
I really do appreciate all the help this group is giving me.
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The burial of the Ellen Jones age 21
Burial: 12 Jul 1893 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Ellen Jones -
Age: 21 years
Abode: Church St.
possible connection
Burial: 1 Oct 1893 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancs.
Sarah Jones -
Age: 7 months
Abode: 81 Church St.
JONES, SARAH mmn =WHITTLE WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 274 (birth)
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Hi Dorothy,
Here is a link to your new thread re your grandfather’s birth
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783435.msg6381157#msg6381157
I have asked there if you have got the birth certificate for Alfred b 1910 to check the details?
Heywood
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You mentioned a Alfred evan Jones as being born 17th September 1910 and passed away 9th of august 1946.
My grandad was born on the 27th of September 1910.
It's not impossible that they refer to the same man. It's possible the '1' of '17' was written unclearly or the figure was mistranscribed.
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Hi josey.
All I know is that my grandad was born 27th September 1910 which my mum told me. Because she remembers it as my dad was born the same as my grandad. She said he was born in wales. Apparently the registra office as no details of him. When I was 1st searching for him I came up with his details. But registered in 1914.
When I asked for advice at a different register office. I was told it is possible my grandads mother may have been too embarrassed to register him. Or she completely forgotten. And I was told you didn't always need to register a baby like we do now within the time limit. My grandads mum wasn't married and never married..
I was advised to get my grandparents marriage certificate so I can check my grandads age and then go back words to see the year he was born. I did that. It says he was 19. So it would make him born 1914. Which brings the date to when he was registered. It also says my gran was 24 when she married my grandad. I went back words to see if her year of birth was the same as I knew it. It comes up with she was born 1909. Which I know isn't true. Because her dob is on her death certificate.
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Hi Dorothy
I really think that you need to purchase this 1914 certificate which would confirm any information that your mother has told you ;)
ALFRED EVAN JONES
1914 September Quarter
CHORLTON reg dist
Volume 08C Page 1401
As you know who his mother was so you would know if you had the wrong certificate. This really is the only way to sort out this problem as to when and where he was born.
Rosie
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I agree with Rosie99, the only way to sort out the mystery is to buy the birth certificate as given above.
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We appear to have conflicting information:
Dorothy says that Alfred Evan was born 27 September 1910 in Wales.
FreeBMD/GRO shows a birth registration for Alfred Evan in September quarter 1914 - Manchester
Findagrave shows an entry for Alfred Evan in Southern Cemetery - born 27 September 1910, died 9 August 1946
FreeBMD shows a death registration in September quarter 1946 - Manchester Registration District aged 31 and this is confirmed on the GRO website as Alfred Evan Jones aged 31
If Alfred Evan was born in 1910 then he would be more than 31 years old when he died in 1946.
I have posted this on the other thread as well
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It is confusing re the dates.
That is why the birth certificate should be checked to confirm or otherwise if that is Frances’ son.
That birth is the one we keep going back to and Dorothy doesn’t agree with.
It has been suggested that 1939 register is checked.
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I have had a quick look at the 1939 but there are a lot of Alfred Jones with or without the E, and I can't seem to tie in Eveline with any of them :-\
And, in my eyes, another pointer to 1914 birth being correct is that Dorothy says that Alfred Evan was aged 19 when he married Eveline Schulman in December quarter 1933.
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The birth certificate could always be ordered with the condition that the mother was Frances Jones but it would not then be available as a PDF ???
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On freebmd I can only find one female post 1933 birth Jones/Shulman & it's in 1944. Did Dorothy say her mother was born in 1937?
The birth certificate could always be ordered with the condition that the mother was Frances Jones but it would not then be available as a PDF ???
Yes, I think that's right.
Dorothy, when you can afford it, this certificate you are being advised to buy by the experienced family history researchers on rootschat is the only way to rule in or out the 1914 Arthur Evan Jones. And however sad, I think we all have to recognise at some stage that things we were told by an older generation may have been wrongly remembered or embellished.
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I agree with Josey, unless you get the certificate to either prove or rule out that birth, we are going round in circles.
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Hi everyone.
Thank you for your help. And advice. I will do that.
It does make a lot of sence.
I know my grandad was married in Manchester and he passed away in Manchester.
So I think it's possible he was born in Manchester. I only hope he was.
And like you all said I will just be going round in circles.
Thank you again for your help.
You all are very helpful.
I didn't realise that you all are proper family history researchers. I only found out this when I read a reply from a member of the group.
Thank you again. I really do appreciate your help. Thank you
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It seems the best thing to do Dorothy.
Please come back and let us know when you get the certificate. :)
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Hi
Apart from the register office in Manchester. Where is the other places I can buy my grandads birth certificate?
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From here as a PDF for £6 or £9.25 for a certificate
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Note that a PDF is not a certificate but has exactly the same information it is just not 'printed' on the official paper document
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Just a little tip which might help those of us looking at your post.
When you say eg 'my grandad' it might be helpful if you named him on that post as especially now we are into 5 pages trying to find which post had the name in takes time. People like me can't remember names from one minute to the next if they are not directly linked to ourselves!
Thank you for saying we are 'proper researchers'. Really in general we are people who have been researching our own families for a while and along the way have picked up information on what & where to look for things, as you no doubt will do as you continue.
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Hi again.
Thank you for your advice. I wasn't sure if I could put my grandads name or his details.
My grandad is Alfred evan Jones.
I'm beginning to think it's possible he was born in England. And in Manchester somewhere in Manchester.
And it is possible my mum might have got a wrong year. .but has the month and date wright.
So what I was thinking of doing. When I go to get my grandads birth certificate ( Alfred evan Jones )
Put born Manchester. And for the year. Put 1910 - 1914 what do you think?.
I sent a email to the registra office in Manchester asking them a question about my grandad having the same surname as his mum and his dad but his mum wasn't married. And never married. They rereplied to me and suggested I contact the Ansetry people as they only issue certificates.
My grandad was Alfred Evan Jones.
My great gran was Frances Jones.
My grandads father was called John Jones.
His name is on my grandparents marriage certificate.
It says fathers surname and rank of profession. John jones vanman deceased
So how can my grandad. My great gran. And my grandads father have the same surname Jones if my grandad was born out of wedlock. And his mum wasn't married and never got married.
It's really confusing. I really don't understand it at all. It might help on his birth certificate.
Thank you again for your help
I really do appreciate everyone's help.
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Ignore any name he has given as his father on the marriage certificate, he was probably making it up it happens often on marriages.
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So what I was thinking of doing. When I go to get my grandads birth certificate ( Alfred evan Jones )
Put born Manchester. And for the year. Put 1910 - 1914 what do you think?.
No, Dorothy, they wont issue you one if you do that. You have to state date, district and reference number. You know the certificate that you want, it was given to you earlier.
ALFRED EVAN JONES
1914 September Quarter
CHORLTON reg dist
Volume 08C Page 1401
Have a look at the GRO page www.gro.gov.uk that takes you through exactly what you need to do.
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Hi rosey
Thank you for your e-mail.
I'm glad you said that. I wasn't sure what to put. I've not done these before.
I had the same problem when I was applying for my grandparents marriage certificate. I had no idea where they was living or anything. I just went by my mum's birth certificate. I got the full copy of that. That's how I found out my grandad was 19 when he got married to my gran eveline. And she was 24.
Which I found strange. 2 reasons. 1st she was older than him. I've always thought men are usually older than women. And 2nd. When I wanted to check see if my grans birth year was wright. I did my sums and it came back she was born 1909.when she was actually born 1911. Which is on her death certificate. And my mum told me.
And when I did the same on my grandad. His year came back to 1914.
They got married in 1933
Anyway thank you again for your help and advice.
I wouldn't have got this far without this group. Thank you again .
Dorothy
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When I wanted to check see if my grans birth year was wright. I did my sums and it came back she was born 1909.when she was actually born 1911. Which is on her death certificate. And my mum told me.
I think what you have to remember, as has been said earlier, you can't always go on what family members say as things get changed or distorted. In earlier times people weren't so concerned with dates as we are - they didn't have to give their date of birth on practically every form as we do!
I would guess the reason she "lost" 2 years was that she was older that her husband, so by doing that it made them appear nearer in age. Remember as well that death certificates are only as good as the information given by the person who registers the death. So if the person who registered her death thought she was born 1911, that is what would go on the certificate. Really, date wise, death certificates are the most unreliable.
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Hi again.
I had to do this when my mum passed away.
It was really strange. Me having to register my mum. Everything I told them at the time is actually on her death certificate. So that's when I thought I do similar on my grandparents marriage certificate and double check the years they was born. My grandad Alfred evan Jones was born 1914 which some members have found out for me. But my grans was afew year's out.
It is strange how things are.