RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jules79ee on Tuesday 28 November 17 03:02 GMT (UK)
-
I'm wondering if anyone could help me with a family mystery?
My great great Grandmother Charlotte is someone who I can't seem to find before a certain point
She was a casual pauper ( tramp) supposedly married to George Ross who was born in Christian Malford Wiltshire - although I can not find any evidence for this. They used to make their way around the casual workhouses in the midlands. So in the census in 1881 I think they are in Tetbury .
ON one census she gives her birth name as O'Bryan and the birthplace of Cork Ireland. ....... on another she says Cardiff around 1851.
Her husband (?) George ross is also a mystery . I know he came from a wealthy family and his dad was an engineer but have no idea about where the parents were from or family further back . How did he end up as a tramp???
I also know that they were both imprisoned in October 1886 at Gloucester prison for damaging property - mainly the windows of the Fish Inn Pub at near Broadway Tower ! I would appreciate any help that you could give me - I have been trying to find out more for years now but I am not very experienced at this sort of thing.
thanks so much just for reading.
Julie
-
Hello Julie and welcome.
It is best if you give as much information as possible. For example you mention, one census then another rather than places or references so it makes it a bit more difficult to search.
Having said that I did find them in 1881 and 1891. :)
For information here they are:
1881 2552 folio 78 Page 12 in Tetbury
1891 2345 folio 175 in Bromsgrove
Which census does she give her name as O’Bryan?
Where do you have the information re George’s father being an engineer etc?
Heywood
-
Her husband (?) George ross is also a mystery . I know he came from a wealthy family and his dad was an engineer but have no idea about where the parents were from or family further back . How did he end up as a tramp???
Julie, I'm wondering how you know George's father was an engineer if you haven't found a marriage or birth registration/baptism?
-
I wonder if this is the engineer reference :-\
1851 Salford
William Ross 44 engineer born Scotland
Christina 30 born Scotland
Catherine 12
George 10 born Wiltshire - transcribed as Crickland (Cricklade) but not sure that is right
William 10
Janet 8
Margaret 4
Christina 3
The family are in Wiltshire in 1841 with the 3 eldest children but wife is Margaret 24
-
I don't know if it's the right George or not but just in case
Births Jun 1840 Cricklade
Ross George Duncan
Ross William Henry
Twins. Mothers name McCrae.
-
:-\
1871 360/38/7
George D Ross is a Civil Engineer a visitor at an hotel in London.
-
This one struck me earlier but I couldn’t make a connection or find a birth :-\
1851 1836/756/16
Christian Malford
David Cipher 62 yrs
Deborah Cipher 61 yrs
George Cipher 15 yrs
Phillip Roush lodger 69 yrs
George Roush lodger 9 yrs b Christian Malford
-
I did see those censuses earlier but had doubts as George Duncan Ross was born 1840, and in 1871 he's in London and an engineer. I struggled to think an engineer in 1871 would be a tramp/hawker by 1881. However George Duncan Ross had sisters named Christiana and Catherine and I've just seen the details of the 'crime' of smashing windows and also accused, along with their husbands were a Christiana Corbett and Catherine Harrison, the names could be a coincidence but worth further research. I'd still like to know how you gained the info that George's father was an engineer.
I have to leave it now as things to do.
-
Phillip Roush lodger 69 yrs
George Roush lodger 9 yrs b Christian Malford
That's an interesting one. Right area. Phillip a grandfather perhaps.
Looking for Phillip to see what surname this might be his death
Sep 1861 Chippenham
Russ Phillip age 83
-
That’s interesting about the accused in the crime.
1886 Gloucester prison records show this information:
William Harrison 65 yrs b Leeds
Catherine Harrison 44 yrs b Penmaenmawr
Christiana Corbett 34 yrs b Redesdale
John Corbett 32 yrs b Chiswick
George Ross the elder 40yrs b Wiltshire
Charlotte Ross 39 yrs b Cork
George Ross the younger 13 yrs b Derby
1861 shows Christina Ross with Margaret Ross (children of William and Christina) both born Kendal at school in Greenwich.
I am just offering this for the moment and can’t match them as couples apart from the George and Charlotte.
-
thank you all so much for your help- yes it was only the census that told me Georges dad was an engineer.
I know George died on 21st dec 1892 at the Bromsgrove workhouse - cause stated of renal dropsy.
Charlotte later went on to marry a George Wooding in 1914 at Upton upon severn.
I have attached a photo of their child Williams birth certificate ( born Warwick workhouse - incidently a few streets away from where I live- he is my great grandfather - this states the O'Bryan bit.
-
Hi Julie, I don't know what the others who are helping with your query think but I doubt that William the engineer in 1871 (son of an engineer) is 'your' William, I'm inclined to think they are two different Williams.
-
That’s interesting about the accused in the crime.
1886 Gloucester prison records show this information:
William Harrison 65 yrs b Leeds
Catherine Harrison 44 yrs b Penmaenmawr
Christiana Corbett 34 yrs b Redesdale
John Corbett 32 yrs b Chiswick
George Ross the elder 40yrs b Wiltshire
Charlotte Ross 39 yrs b Cork
George Ross the younger 13 yrs b Derby
1861 shows Christina Ross with Margaret Ross (children of William and Christina) both born Kendal at school in Greenwich.
I am just offering this for the moment and can’t match them as couples apart from the George and Charlotte.
Searching on the GRO, there is a George ROSS birth registered Sep qtr 1873 at Derby (7b/446) with mother's maiden name HARRISON
Also George RUSS Mar qtr Derby (7b/470) with no mmn.
-
Hi maddys52, I saw those too but had no time to look further.
If I recall, I couldn’t see the earlier births in Derby with a mother O’Bryan and was wondering if they had a different mother.
-
Going back to Charlotte - who did she give as her father on her second marriage?
-
Hi maddys52, I saw those too but had no time to look further.
If I recall, I couldn’t see the earlier births in Derby with a mother O’Bryan and was wondering if they had a different mother.
Yes, after I posted I had a look at the other children on the 1881 census - Albert (5) and Alice (2), but couldn't see any birth registrations that looked right, so thought maybe the HARRISON mmn was just a coincidence (with the other's who were convicted of window breaking etc - very interesting read in the papers of the day, though doesn't give any further info as to family sadly). Had to go out, but might have a closer look now. ;)
-
We can discount the Ross/Harrison births
John Ross married Aves Harrison 1872 Derby and they are in 1881 with the children. She is Avis there.
-
Ah, that's good to discount then.
Btw, is this Charlotte in 1901 at Malvern Link, Worcestershire?
Charlotte Ross Lodger 50 Cork, Ireland (hawker)
Thomas Perry Lodger 29 Dundee, Scotland (hawker)
(from familysearch - I don't have access to the original image at the moment)
-
Yes that looks like her. I think she is in the Workhouse later.
In 1891 the family are in the Workhouse in Bromsgrove.
Birthplaces:
George snr Chippenham, Wiltshire
Charlotte Cardiff
Alice Stratford on Avon
William Warwick
GRO has a birth for Alice Ross no mother’s name 1878 December quarter and
William, Warwick mother O’Bryan as we know.
That means we have two possible births where mother’s name isn’t shown :-\
-
Going back to Charlotte - who did she give as her father on her second marriage?
Father is named as Thomas CRADDOCK, Gardener(?)
Debra :)
-
I think that the Charlotte ROSS who married George WOODING at Powick in 1914 is this one here:
1911
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BS-SLN
1851
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGBZ-W78
She married firstly to William JOYNER, and secondly to George ROSS in 1907.
Debra :)
-
This one struck me earlier but I couldn’t make a connection or find a birth :-\
1851 1836/756/16
Christian Malford
David Cipher 62 yrs
Deborah Cipher 61 yrs
George Cipher 15 yrs
Phillip Roush lodger 69 yrs
George Roush lodger 9 yrs b Christian Malford
Perhaps the surname is RUSS or ROSE or something similar. Worthy RUSS and Jane CASWELL baptised a son named George in 1842:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NF18-G32
He isn't with them in 1851 but I cannot see a death.
Debra :)
-
I think that the Charlotte ROSS who married George WOODING at Powick in 1914 is this one here:
1911
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BS-SLN
1851
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGBZ-W78
She married firstly to William JOYNER, and secondly to George ROSS in 1907.
Debra :)
So that is not Charlotte Ross (O’Bryan) then.
-
This one struck me earlier but I couldn’t make a connection or find a birth :-\
1851 1836/756/16
Christian Malford
David Cipher 62 yrs
Deborah Cipher 61 yrs
George Cipher 15 yrs
Phillip Roush lodger 69 yrs
George Roush lodger 9 yrs b Christian Malford
Perhaps the surname is RUSS or ROSE or something similar. Worthy RUSS and Jane CASWELL baptised a son named George in 1842:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NF18-G32
He isn't with them in 1851 but I cannot see a death.
Debra :)
Yes I agree re the variations of the surname.
Not sure re George Russ but it looks tempting.
I would have thought that Worthy was connected to Philip but his father seems to be John :-\
-
Phillip Russ of Christian Malford married Elizabeth Field of Brinkworth on 20th March 1809.
Their children could lead to George’s parents?
-
These are the children, there may be more because of the various spellings of the surname.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l40/
Still wondering about the surname though - It seems to be Roust so would you then get Ross :-\
-
Possibility for George Russ here in 1861 -working as a Carter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KB-LYP