RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: SmallTownGirl on Tuesday 28 November 17 11:54 GMT (UK)
-
A g.uncle of mine was posthumously awarded the MM in 1918.
I already have his Attestation papers, medal card, medal roll, soldier's effects listing and everything else that Ancestry and FindMyPast can offer, plus his CWGC entry and listings on various Warwickshire war memorials, but I've never been able to find anything resembling a citation regarding his MM.
I have looked at his Regiment's (The Northamptonshire Regiment) War Diaries from a few days before he was KIA to a few days after and, whilst not necessarily expecting a "mere" Cpl to be mentioned by name, I can't see anything where anyone else is mentioned either. A month or so after his death, the War Diary does contain a page listing various medal recipients and his name there.
I'm wondering:
-whether there's any mileage in trying to research the names of other NCOs who are on that same page to see if anyone else was KIA on the same day and/or has a findable MM citation?
- whether anyone can suggest an alternative line of research?
Or am I living in false hope of ever finding out why my g.uncle won his MM?
He was Cpl 32847, Vincent James Allton, 1st Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment, who was KIA on 29 Oct 1918 if anyone would like to help ;)
Thanks
STG
-
Hi, I had / have the same problem, MM citations were not recorded in the press etc, tho' the names of the recipients were published in the London Gazette, I would try the papers local to his area if you have not already done so, there may be something in those, it was always a bit of a moral booster for he folks back home, (Local boy does well, and that sort of thing)
Hope that helps :)
Frank.
Added, there are some very good people on here who have access to War diary's and trench maps etc, hopefully someone may be able to tie it all down to a particular action.
-
Thanks Frank, but I've got the London Gazette entry for him. Sorry I forgot to mention that in my list of "already got/tried that's" :-[
Have also scoured local newspapers, but absolutely no luck. Maybe because by the time the news of his MM was released, he was already dead?
STG
-
It might be worth your while contacting these people: https://northamptonmuseums.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/the-northamptonshire-regiment-collection/
Cati
-
While clearly you will want to try everything, the answer really is that you have everything there is to find.
The Adjutant and Quartermaster General's element of the divisional headquarters was responsible for collating recommendations for awards, passing them on to Corps HQ and subsequently publishing the lists. In October 1918, lists of varying length and varying awards for men across the units of the division were published on 13 different days. In November, up to the 26th when the list with your man on it was published, 10 lists had been published in different days. In every case, these were lists only, regiment/name/award. Your man's award was one of about 150 Military Medals, 19 of them for the Northamptonshires, published on the one day 26th Nov. The Corps authority for the publication was dated 5 November so the recommendation for the awards in that list would have been submitted early in October (guesswork!).
My guess would be that the fighting in the 18/19th September period may well have been the time that gave rise to your man's award. There are congratulatory messages in the 2 Brigade diary from the Army, Corps and Divisional commanders praising the work of the units of the 1st Division in an action that drove the line some 3000 yards forward. Just the sort of thing that would result in the higher formation inviting submissions for medals.
Disappointing I know not to be sure but par for the course unfortunately.
MaxD
See addition in next post
-
I should have added that the 18/19 Sep action is very poorly covered in the battalion diary, the brigade diary is better.
MaxD
-
Thanks MaxD and Cati
Most of the time I'm resigned to the fact that I'll not find out, but whenever I get to thinking about it all again, I just wonder if any new sources have become available that might just reveal all.
Can you point me towards the brigade diary please - assuming it's on-line?
Thanks
STG
-
I'll content myself by doing the easy bit.
2/Bde. war diary from Oct. 1st. 1918.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l3q/
-
I'll content myself by doing the easy bit.
2/Bde. war diary from Oct. 1st. 1918.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l3q/
Am confused :-[ !
My chap was in the 1st Bn.
MaxD says 1st Bn diaries not very illuminating re 18/19 Sept, so try the Brigade diaries.
You send me a link to the Brigade diaries starting 1 Oct.
This military stuff makes my head hurt ???
-
1st. Northants were in the 2nd. Brigade.
MaxD mentioned Oct. 1918 so I've linked to that.
From LLT:
1st Battalion
August 1914 : in Blackdown near Aldershot under command of 2nd Brigade in 1st Division.
13 August 1914 : landed at Le Havre.
-
1st. Northants were in the 2nd. Brigade.
MaxD mentioned Oct. 1918 so I've linked to that.
From LLT:
1st Battalion
August 1914 : in Blackdown near Aldershot under command of 2nd Brigade in 1st Division.
13 August 1914 : landed at Le Havre.
OK. Making a bit more sense now!
Thanks for bearing with me :-*
STG
-
Thanks Jim - had to pop out for a rub down with an oily rag.
STG - Jim's link puts you at 1 October, go back a bit to 1 September (page 459 of 623) and then forward to the 18th etc. The brigade diary is recounting the operations of its 3 battalions, Northants, Sussex and Kings Royal Rifle Corps plus a trench mortar battery and a machine gun battalion. There is pretty much continuous action till the 28th. The contrast in detail between this diary and the battalion diary is quite marked and while (if you will excuse me sayng so) you may not entirely follow all the military stuff, the amount of detail I hope conveys a picture of a fairly intense period of fighting.. If you carry on to page 502 you will find the first of three congratulatory messages referring to the action of 18/19. There are others at pages 512/513 referring to the latter part of the action. The Sep to Oct pages are interspersed also with accounts of the operations written after the events.
The first two weeks of October, the brigade was out of the line hence my (hopefully educated) guess that it was for the September actions that your man was recognised. The action in which he was killed was too late to allow the submission through brigade to division to corps and back again by 5 November.
MaxD
There'll be questions at the end :)
-
STG - if you'd like to look at the next level up, the 1st Division A & Q Diary, this link (I've not mastered short links!)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1238_0-00000?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_1238_0-00167
takes you to the first October list of honours and awards published in routine orders most days. If you skim through them and continue on to 26 November, you will get a sense of the number of awards made for the previous couple of months. There was of course a submission/citation for each one going up the chain but apart from the major honours, these were not kept for posterity and, in any event, probably above division, they became a list of names only as the higher commander would trust the judgement of the ones who made the submission.
MaxD
-
The 'Evening Despatch' newspaper reported his dearh in Dec 18. An article on the front page of the same paper from June 1917 includes pictures of the six serving sons feom the family as well as the parents. The paper only seems to have been digitised up to the end of 1918 but I would check early 1919 editions as the family had a high profile locally, you may find a mention.
-
The 'Evening Despatch' newspaper reported his dearh in Dec 18. An article on the front page of the same paper from June 1917 includes pictures of the six serving sons feom the family as well as the parents. The paper only seems to have been digitised up to the end of 1918 but I would check early 1919 editions as the family had a high profile locally, you may find a mention.
Oooh! I already had the June 1917 newspaper cutting, but not the Dec 1918 one, which has a much clearer photo of Vincent than the 1917 one, so that's just lovely!
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. :-*
-
STG - if you'd like to look at the next level up, the 1st Division A & Q Diary, this link (I've not mastered short links!)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1238_0-00000?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d60779%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=43112_1238_0-00167
takes you to the first October list of honours and awards published in routine orders most days. If you skim through them and continue on to 26 November, you will get a sense of the number of awards made for the previous couple of months. There was of course a submission/citation for each one going up the chain but apart from the major honours, these were not kept for posterity and, in any event, probably above division, they became a list of names only as the higher commander would trust the judgement of the ones who made the submission.
MaxD
You are such a poppet!
Thank you soooo much :-*
STG