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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Topic started by: lahpun on Wednesday 29 November 17 23:07 GMT (UK)
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Hello from Australia,
I am looking for a George Ninnim who was born in 1839 to a Charles and Sophia Ninnim. I found Charles and Sophia and 4 children in the 1841 census then again in the 1851 census but Arthur was not there and another child Henry was added. On the free census this family seem to have disappeared after this.
There was a newspaper cutting in the Hampshire Telegraph dated 28 May 1859 that a Charles Ninnim had died following an accident at work. I have tried to locate the other members of the family(incidently the males seem to have been coopers) with no luck.
George is the one I am trying to locate, I found a marriage for him to a Harriet King Butler in May 1866 at Ringwood but have lost him after that. I know Harriet married secondly James Kaye in 1869.
Any help appreciated.
Lesley
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Hi on the 1861 census we have:-
Sophia MINNIM 63 Widow
George 22 Journeyman Cooper
Henry 17 occ Journeyman Cooper
Residing at Land Road, Whiteparish
Census Ref RG09/1313/95/5
Keyboard86
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Was Harriet shown as a widow on the 1869 marriage cert
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The Charles who died in 1859 was 47 years old (so born c1812)
From GRO Search Index:
NINNIM, CHARLES 47
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 254
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Thank you to all of you for such a quick reply.
To K.Garrard: Charles Ninnim (47) such a young age to pass over. He was working on a ship and something snapped and hit him in the head nearly severing the top of his head he died by 3pm in the afternoon.
To Carol W: I don't actually have the marriage certificate for Harriett just going on what is available on someone else's tree where they say she is the daughter of a Thomas Butler, Inn keeper. We believe that she is the daughter of a Stephen Butler and Sarah Shepherd King who married in 1831. Don't know when Harriet(t) Kaye died.
To Keyboard86: Thanks for that, I have tried to locate the family just by googling and also on the FREECEN and cannot locate them. I wonder what happened to the children but mainly George I cant find another marriage/children or death.
Lesley
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Hi there is also a death of a Charles Ninnim June qtr 1857 Alderbury 5a 121 cannot at present locate age on GRO Index?
Keyboard86
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Strangely - a George Ninnim aged 54 died 1857 Portsea Island
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Hello from Australia,
I am looking for a George Ninnim who was born in 1839 to a Charles and Sophia Ninnim.
Lesley
It seems George Ninnim was b.1838
from image
Whiteparish
George Nimmin son of Charles & Sophia Ninnim
baptised 16 Dec 1838
address W Parish
father's occ labourer
Suz
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His birth was registered Dec qtr 1838 Alderbury 8 229
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His birth was registered Dec qtr 1838 Alderbury 8 229
Mothers maiden name Russell
Keyboard86
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Thank you to all of you for such a quick reply.
To K.Garrard: Charles Ninnim (47) such a young age to pass over. He was working on a ship and something snapped and hit him in the head nearly severing the top of his head he died by 3pm in the afternoon.
To Carol W: I don't actually have the marriage certificate for Harriett just going on what is available on someone else's tree where they say she is the daughter of a Thomas Butler, Inn keeper. We believe that she is the daughter of a Stephen Butler and Sarah Shepherd King who married in 1831. Don't know when Harriet(t) Kaye died.
Lesley
I believe Harriet was the daughter of Stephen and Sarah
Baptism Pentridge Dorset
5 may 1844 Harriet King Butler
daughter of Stephen & Sarah Butlet
address Woodgates Dorset
father's occ Ostler and ????/(blot over this word)
1861 it looks like she is with her Uncle and Aunt
1861 Cowsfield Com Whiteparish
Thomas King head M 50 Gardener & F 10 acres Powner hants
Jane King wife 52 Plymouth Devon
HARRIET BUTLER neice 17 General servant Woodgate Dorset
RG9 1313 85 7
this looks a possible for Harriet after her marriage to james Kaye
1871
108 F Block Liverpool lancs
James Kaye head M 35 Railway Porter Kirkburton Yks
HARRIET wife 27 Woodgate Dorset
Davis son 8mths Liverpool Lancs
RG10 3761 44 4
Suz
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Hello again,
I think the Charles Ninnim who died in 1859 would be the father of George born 1839.
The George who died in 1859 aged 54, would not be the one I am looking for as George did not get married to Harriet Butler until 1866. Thanks anyway.
I did just now find a Henry Ninnim who died/or was injured on a ship explosion in the early 1870's The ship name was the HMS Thunderer. This could be George's younger brother.
Another find just now was a marriage for 1888 - Betsy from Portsea; George Ringwood, John West Derby and Joseph J. Portsea. Don't know if this George is the one I am looking for.
Susz, thanks for your input, that is the family so thanks for your information.
Thanks Carol. All noted
Keyboard86 - Sophia's maiden name Russell - thank you for that too.
Suz: Thanks for all that information. Now I see why that other tree has Thomas Butler as her father at the time of her marriage to George NINNIM in 1866.
Lesley
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Hi there is also a death of a Charles Ninnim June qtr 1857 Alderbury 5a 121 cannot at present locate age on GRO Index?
Keyboard86
Hi the fact George & family lived in Alderbury I would suggest that this is more likely for the father of George?
Keyboard86
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Henry Ninnim married Frances Jane Luffman June qtr. 1871 Alderbury.
In 1881 family are in Southampton transcribed on Ancestry as 'Ninuine'
In 1891 ditto as 'Nennin'
In 1901 ditto as 'Winnim'.
Henry was a cooper - his age fluctuates somewhat but 1901 states born Whiteparish, Wilts. albeit 10 years out!
Can find nothing re. Arthur and Thomas but as Harriet remarried as a widow in 1869 George must have died between 1866-1869.
Glad this surname not one of mine!
Annette
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Hi all, a Tree on Anc**** suggests that George died 26th June 1883 Hindmarsh, South Australia aged 44?
Either a massive coincidence in the deaths, but from another tree an Arthur NENHAM married a Sarah Vowell 3rd October 1858 Clare, Adelaide, St Michael, Mitchum District and dies 26th June 1883 Hindmarsh aged 52 as NINHAM?
Keyboard86
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Hi All,
Thank you all for helping here.
Annette7: when you say family is in Southampton are you referring to Henry's family or George and a new wife? So the information I posted about a Henry Ninnim dying in an explosion on the HMS Thunderer may not be the younger brother of George if he is still around in 1901. Also the different spelling of the surname ....... wow!
Keyboard86: So if you are right, George came to Australia no wonder we can't find him in the UK. I wonder also if the Arthur NENHAM is the big brother of George?
A further ask: Can anyone tell me when Harriett KAYE (NINNIM/nee Butler died and where. Also her husband James (Railway Porter). I note Harriet and James had a son Davis (could it be David) ? They had a daughter Hannah 1872 she married Robert Birkbeck Kelly in November 1891 and I have all their information from Liverpool to Western Australia. After Hannah there was another daughter Edith Adelaide Kaye and she also came to Australia and married here I have her information. Were there other children?
Thanks again everyone
Lesley
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Hi again, could you give us details of the marriage of George Ninnim to Harriet King Butler please?
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard: All I can tell you is that which I copied from another tree -
GEORGE NINNIM married on 28 May 1866 IN RINGWOOD to HARRIET KING BUTLER (whose parent is supposed to be a Thomas Butler, Inn Keeper) This is just one line within their tree. I think I googled George Ninnim Ringwood and this tree came up something like HENDREDGE or similar.
Thanks for helping on this.
Lesley
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OK so going on that, in fact you do not know if it is "Your" George?
I would be looking for details of those two deaths on the same date in Hindmarsh, South Australia?!
Keyboard86
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Thanks again for your help.
Will check out this line and see if they did actually come to Australia or not.
Lesley
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lahpun - yes, the family I was referring to was Henry's so he was not the one you found killed in an explosion.
Harriet Kaye died in the Dec.qtr.1902 West Derby, Lancashire
James Kaye died in the Sept.qtr.1905 West Derby, Lancashire
In 1901 they were living in Kirkdale, Lancashire which came under the registration district of West Derby.
Annette
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Thank you to all of you for such a quick reply.
To K.Garrard: Charles Ninnim (47) such a young age to pass over. He was working on a ship and something snapped and hit him in the head nearly severing the top of his head he died by 3pm in the afternoon.
To Carol W: I don't actually have the marriage certificate for Harriett just going on what is available on someone else's tree where they say she is the daughter of a Thomas Butler, Inn keeper. We believe that she is the daughter of a Stephen Butler and Sarah Shepherd King who married in 1831. Don't know when Harriet(t) Kaye died.
Lesley
I believe Harriet was the daughter of Stephen and Sarah
Baptism Pentridge Dorset
5 may 1844 Harriet King Butler
daughter of Stephen & Sarah Butlet
address Woodgates Dorset
father's occ Ostler and ????/(blot over this word)
1861 it looks like she is with her Uncle and Aunt
1861 Cowsfield Com Whiteparish
Thomas King head M 50 Gardener & F 10 acres Powner hants
Jane King wife 52 Plymouth Devon
HARRIET BUTLER neice 17 General servant Woodgate Dorset
RG9 1313 85 7
this looks a possible for Harriet after her marriage to james Kaye
1871
108 F Block Liverpool lancs
James Kaye head M 35 Railway Porter Kirkburton Yks
HARRIET wife 27 Woodgate Dorset
Davis son 8mths Liverpool Lancs
RG10 3761 44 4
Suz
[/quote
Apologies for my typo-Davis is most certainly David
Suz
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Thanks Annette for the dates of death for Harriett and James Kaye.
and
Susz, thanks for telling me about David Kaye.
Regards
Lesley
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OK I googled George Ninnim Ringwood and found the same Henstredge site, some semblance of fact other than George occ Carpenter of Ringwood, Father Charles occ Cooper, Harriet King Butler Father Thomas Butler occ Inn Keeper.
How/Why eg Harriet gave Thomas as her father I do not know, and George changes occupation, and we do not know if Harriet was shown as a Widow when she marries James Kaye?
Keyboard86
PS Still believe father of George, Charles died 1857 Alderbury, not 1859?
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OK now being swayed that George perhaps changed occupation, the whereabouts of Harriet b 1844 Woodyates/Woodgate(s) in 1851 to locate, but located Stephen/Sarah Butler and family in 1841 census in Woodyates, Stephen occ Postman, in 1851 census:-
Sarah Butler 44 Widow occ Formerly INN KEEPER b Wiltshire
John S? Butler 14 b Woodyates
Edward S? Butler 11 b Woodyates
Sarah E Butler 5 b Woodyates
Residing St Ives, Christcurch, Ringwood
Census ref HO107/1667/200/16
Sarah appears to remarry a George Brent by 1861, Census ref RG09/668/56/8
Birth Fanny Jane BRINT June qtr 1852 Ringwood mmn King
Keyboard86
EDIT OK now located Harriet Butler in 1851 census aged 7 b Pentridge with Thomas King 40 b Ringwood, Jane 41 b Plymouth at Cowesfield, Whiteparish
Census ref HO107/1846/148/29
Wonder why Harriet appears to stay with Thomas/Jane over two census returns, even naming a Thomas occ Inn Keeper as her father at marriage to George?!
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Harriet Ninnim, widow, daughter of Stephen Butler, Publican, married James Kaye 11/7/1869 St. Lukes, Liverpool - (marriage is on Ancestry).
Annette
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Harriet Ninnim, widow, daughter of Stephen Butler, Publican, married James Kaye 11/7/1869 St. Lukes, Liverpool - (marriage is on Ancestry).
Annette
Which now brings into doubt the two trees on Anc**** showing deaths for both Arthur & George in Australia on the same day/date/place ( Having doubts myself, ages at death too exact)!
Keyboard86
EDIT Think we possibly need help from Australia?
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Good morning:
I want to thank you ALL for your efforts in helping me with my research.
As far as getting information from South Australia, their records are not on line as NSW, Tasmania and Qld are. All the others charge to provide historical records and as Keyboard says they may not be the family I am seeking.
May I ask you all where you come from - I am from Queensland.
I WOULD LIKE TO WISH YOU ALL A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR AND MAY 2018 BRING YOU ALL THAT YOU WISH FOR.
It is with the help of people like yourselves that we who have no access to English records are able to find our Ancestors.
Thanks again
Lesley
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Hello again ALL,
I am getting my ducks in a row, so to speak, and wondered if someone could tell me what I have -
I have two prints from census' - one being the information which susz gave me showing James Kaye, Harriet and David 8 months - it is the 1871 census I think. RG 10/3761
The other shows James Kaye, Harriet, Hannah 9, George 4, William 2, Walter 4 months I think and Lily I cant read her age. RG11/3660 or RG 13/3468. What year is this census?
As David is not on the later census did he die? If yes, when and where.
In the later census there is no Edith Adelaide Kaye whom I know is her sister as she came to Australia also. I am assuming the second one is 1881 as Hannah is only 9.
Was there an 1891 and 1901 census and was this family on both. Where is this family then as one of you told me Harriet and James died in 1902 and 1905.
I looked at the freebdm's and found a David was born Sept. qtr of 1870 - 8b 18 and also a David James in March qtr in 1870 at Lambeth - 1d 381.
I then found a death for a David Kaye in June qtr 1871 at Liverpool 0 age
and a David James died in March 1871 St Saviour - 1d 114
Do your records show the parents names as well? free bdm's don't.
Hoping you can help
Lesley
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TNA Classes for Censuses:
HO107 - used for both 1841 and 1851
RG09 - 1861
RG10 - 1871
RG11 - 1881
RG12 - 1891
RG13 - 1901
RG14 - 1911
HO - Home Office files
RG - Registrar General files
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K.Garrard: You state that RG11 is 1881 and RG13 is 1901. Does that mean that the same information is on two different years? Sorry I am a bit dense when it comes to these census'. How can one sheet have two numbers? Appreciate your advice.
Lesley
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The full reference from The National Archives consists of:
Class - HO107, or RG09-14 as I detailed before
Piece Number
Folio Number
Page number
The full reference contains all 4 of these, and should be quoted when referring to a particular census page.
It's a bit like looking at 2 different books? Chapter 3, page 37 will likely occur in both books, but will be completely different! ;D
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Hi when/where do you have the birth for Edith Adelaide Kaye, whose sister was she?
Lily in 1881 census was 4 months so Walter was a twin ( Their is a death of a Walter Kaye Sept qtr 1881 West Derby aged 9 months) in 1891 census only new addition to family is a John aged 4 b Liverpool Census ref RG12/2905/121/7, in 1901 household other than James 65 Harriet 57 are George 24 and John 14
Census ref RG13/3468/151/17
Keyboard86
Lesley, just work on the fact at each subsequent census, they will be 10 years (Approx) older?
PS The only Edith Adelaide Kaye in the UK in the time scale was born 1868 Poplar as Edith Adelaide Isabella Kaye and ends up in America, their is from a tree an Edith Adelaide Kaye b 1874 Australia?
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Hi,
Going back to George and Sophia NINNIM I agree with keyboard86 that the Charles who dies in 1857 is the husband of Sophia, father of George etc. I found this burial record which gives his age as 60.
Burial
Charles NINNIM
Burial Date: 20 Jun 1857
Burial Place: Whiteparish, Wiltshire
Age: 60
I'm not sure if you know that Charles and Sophia had children before Arthur,
Baptisms
Charles
Baptism Date: 08 Feb 1824
Baptism Place: Whiteparish, Wiltshire
son of Charles & Sophia NINIM
Cooper
Mary Ann
Date of Birth: 13 Jan 1825
Baptism Date: 22 Aug 1830
Baptism Place: Whiteparish, Wiltshire
Dau of Charles & Sophia NINNIM
Cooper by Trade
Ann Maria
Birth Date: 13 Jan 1825
Baptism Date: 22 Aug 1830
Baptism Place: Whiteparish, Wiltshire
Dau of Charles & Sophia NINNIM
Cooper by Trade
These twin girls were baptised on the same day as Arthur.
I can't see Charles Jun. in 1841 but this could be his death,
Death
Charles NINNIM Dec Q 1848 Alderbury Union 08 160
Age: 25
Burial
Charles NINNIM
Burial Date: 10 Dec 1848
Burial Place: Whiteparish, Wiltshire
Age: 25
Wiltshire Independent 14 December 1848
Dec 4, at Whiteparish after a protracted illness, borne with Christian fortitude, Charles NIMMIN aged 25 years.
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi again, re those two trees on Anc**** both have George & Arthur linked to Charles/Sophia ( Very suspect in some cases) but surely in the case of Arthur, the marriage to Sarah Vowell must show parentage and define if indeed at least he went to Australia?
Those two deaths on same day/date/year must be somewhere on a record/newspaper article?
Keyboard86
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This looks like some of the family going to Australia in 1853,
First Mary Ann marries a James WATKIN,
Marriage
Mary Ann NINNIM Dec Q 1852 Alderbury 5a 378
James WATKIN
Married in the Parish Church of Whiteparish
Dec 25th 1852
James WATKIN
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Tailor
Of this parish
Father: Thomas WATKIN, Clerk
Mary NINNIM
Of Full Age
Spinster
Of this parish
Father: Charles NINNIM, Cooper
Both signed
Witnesses: Arthur HAYTER, Sarah ARNEY
The "South Australia, Australia, Passenger Lists, 1853" at Ancestry shows a page from the South Australian Government Gazette dated 01 Sept 1853, which includes this info,
Ship: Magdalena
Single Emigrants
Jane NINEM
Ann Maria NINNEM
Married Emigrants
WATKINS James & Mary Ann
Images available here on pages 577 and 579
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/other/sa_gazette/1853/35.pdf
You can see an alternative list at Trove here,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l4i/
Daisy
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I've found reports of Arthur's death on the 26th June 1883 in Hindmarsh here,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l4j/
No sign of George.
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Hi again, as you can see I am getting slightly concerned as to the parentage of Edith Adelaide Kaye, one of the supposed sisters Hannah Kaye looks to have married a Robert Birkbeck Kelly Dec qtr 1891 Liverpool 8b 221
1901 census
Robert B Kelly 32
Hannah 29
Harriett 8
John 7
Emma 4
Robert 3
Residing at Teulon Street, Kirkdale
All born Liverpool
Census ref RG13/3465/143/6
EDIT Possibly this family departed London for Fremantle 23/7/1909 on Vessel Orient
Hannah Kelly occ Housewife
Harriet
Emma
Robert
Henry
Margaret
Hannah
Keyboard86
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I'm concerned re. parentage of Edith Adelaide Kaye too - a) there is no birth entry for anyone of this name born to James Kaye and Harriet Ninnim nee Butler and b) she does not appear on the census with family at all.
However, I wonder if there has been some confusion along the way. I note that an Edith Adelaide Kaye was born in 1874 in Eltham, Victoria to a James Kaye and Harriet Pearce.
She married a man surnamed Rojo in 1890 Victoria. Her death entry in 1954 Hawthorn, Victoria shows her parents as James Kaye and Harriet unknown.
Is this the Edith Adelaide Kaye you mean? If so, she was born in Australia, certainly wasn't a sister of Hannah and her parents were a different James Kaye and wife Harriet Pearce - this couple married in England in June quarter 1860 St. Columb, Cornwall and the 2 of them are living in St. Enoder, Cornwall in 1861 where both are said to have been born ca.1841. Harriet must have been about to give birth as a son William Albert birth in June quarter 1861 St. Columb, Cornwall. By 1864 the family were in Australia where the following born in Victoria:
John Thomas b.1864
Mary Ellen b.1866
Louisa Ann b.1869
Richard James b.1871
Edith Adelaide b.1874 (married a Rojo in 1890 Victoria).
So, to conclude, if the Edith Adelaide Kaye you refer to is the one who married a Rojo 1890 Victoria then she was definitely not a sister of Hannah. Edith born in Australia 1874, her parents being a James Kaye and Harriet Pearce who were both born (and married) in Cornwall and emigrated to Australia 1861-1864 whilst Hannah's parents were another James Kaye and wife Harriet Ninnim, nee Butler who never left England.
Annette